Modes Why does PvP in open even exist ???

[Jotaro]

Keep it civilized you say, but to me it seems like you take a very defensive stance and try to put all PvP'ers in the same boat and look down on them. Obviously it's hard to tell if that's actually what you mean on a computer screen, but still.

Anyway, to answer your question:

Why does PvP in open even exist?
Elite dangerous is an MMO and a sandbox. I believe you should be able to do whatever you want in these types of games, as it's part of what makes it fun. PvP is one activity the game allows you to do, and there's therefore players that want to do it.

PvP in open needs an implementation. Or does it? + is PvP already implemented:
Well we already have kind of an implementation. We can do PvP. But there's no actual reason to do so outside of powerplay and your own interest. You don't gain anything from it. That's why it needs to have a better implementation. And yes, it does need it. A decent chunk of the playerbase plays the game for the PvP aspect. Leaving them out would be stupid.


Where is PvP focus in open:
San Tu is the official PvP system in Elite currently, but there's a lot more PvP going on then just there. Elite is a game that is supposed to be dangerous, that's why Theres all kinds of stuff you can outfit your ship with to protect your ship from bad guys. Theres also a lot of stuff to outfit your ship with to be the bad guy. Powerplay does give somewhat of a reason to PvP. In summary there isn't necessarily focus on PvP in open, but it is something that can and does happen

If PvP is not, why allow it in the fist place?
Why shouldn't it be allowed? It's a sandbox. Stunts aren't the focus of gta online, should it also be banned? Or should you be able to do whatever you want within the sandbox world of the games? Limiting gameplay options isn't going to do anything good for the game

Is PvP in Open an abuse?
Most of the time, no. If you log into open you are basically consenting to playing with all kinds of CMDR's, and not to burst your bubble, but not everyone wants to be your friend. The way you put this question make it seem like all PvP is to you is some griefers in fully engineered ships ganking people that don't want to fight (carebears). I don't do PvP to blow up unwanting CMDR's for the laugh. I do PvP because it's the only thing that keeps me interested in the game anymore at this point, so i get my excitement by finding other CMDR's willing to fight me on equal terms.


PvP can become a problem if you get start witchhunting people to the point where they have to stop playing in open anymore. That's pretty much a kind of bullying. But that's not what happens most of the time when people whine about PvP. It's usually just some people who think they should have a certain right to stay alive in this dangerous galaxy without outfitting and flying their ships properly and then gets their bubble burst when they see that reality isn't some wonderland

 

[Tiili]

PvP in open needs an implementation. Or does it? + is PvP already implemented:
Well we already have kind of an implementation. We can do PvP. But there's no actual reason to do so outside of powerplay and your own interest. You don't gain anything from it. That's why it needs to have a better implementation. And yes, it does need it. A decent chunk of the playerbase plays the game for the PvP aspect. Leaving them out would be stupid.

Don't forget that it's very lucrative to PVPirate after core mining came out, so it has actually become a proper reason instead of just roleplay flavor. Finally some other form of PVP than jousting with PAs.

 

[Jockey79]

Don't forget that it's very lucrative to PVPirate after core mining came out, so it has actually become a proper reason instead of just roleplay flavor. Finally some other form of PVP than jousting with PAs.

Kill missions can also be done via PvP (kill "x" number of "y" type of ships).
As well as those who do Power Play in Open

So there is plenty of in game reasons to PvP with others who also want to do PvP.

 

[Sylveria]

Kill missions can also be done via PvP (kill "x" number of "y" type of ships).
As well as those who do Power Play in Open

So there is plenty of in game reasons to PvP with others who also want to do PvP.

Not to mention (oh perhaps I am) that since release, all 3 modes have existed, and that there has never been any "less" reasons either... except arguably "engineering" being added with Horizons, perhaps. That's the only commonality I've seen people complain about the most.

Not one bit of demonstrable evidence has been shown that Open is "lacking" in PvP encounters, and much to the contrary- most seem quite happy to tell others to get on to PG/Solo if they don't like PvP in Open, so the entire claim that somehow there's no "meaning" in PvP in Open is patently false AFAIC.

Apparently, it's very much alive and well.

"Victims of their own success", perhaps?

 

[Jockey79]

"Victims of their own success", perhaps?

We did warn them of this, back when they first started telling people to go play Mobius if they didn't want PvP.

Actually, first I ever heard about Mobius was from PvP'ers telling me to leave open.

Go figure.

[FONT=&quot]¯\_(ツ)_/¯[/FONT]

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Don't forget that it's very lucrative to PVPirate after core mining came out, so it has actually become a proper reason instead of just roleplay flavor. Finally some other form of PVP than jousting with PAs.

IKR? Oh man, piracy is so good right now.

 

[Jockey79]

IKR? Oh man, piracy is so good right now.

Still in the Cobra, or do you need a bigger hold with all these Void Opals knocking about?

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Still in the Cobra, or do you need a bigger hold with all these Void Opals knocking about?

Just my lil' Cobra. The value of opals means I'm talking a single-digit haul and it's a good one in my book.

 

[AP Birdman]

Not to mention (oh perhaps I am) that since release, all 3 modes have existed, and that there has never been any "less" reasons either... except arguably "engineering" being added with Horizons, perhaps. That's the only commonality I've seen people complain about the most.

Not one bit of demonstrable evidence has been shown that Open is "lacking" in PvP encounters, and much to the contrary- most seem quite happy to tell others to get on to PG/Solo if they don't like PvP in Open, so the entire claim that somehow there's no "meaning" in PvP in Open is patently false AFAIC.

Apparently, it's very much alive and well.

"Victims of their own success", perhaps?

Mmmmm, you're a bit wrong there. The problem with PvP currently is that there is no reward system at all. Every other "thing to do" in elite has some kind of credit reward but with PvP the only thing you get is a rebuy screen. You're more likely to loose money than to make money which is why it scares a lot of people off.

I have a great many friends in elite that refuse to take part in PvP other than H.A.A.A.N.D.S (Cknarf's Wednesday night organized PvP battles) because there's no reason and no reward. The only real reason is to test your own piloting abilities, which is enough for people like me to continue doing it but thats not enough for most people.

Imagine if Fdev dropped an update today that somehow made consensual PvP payouts as lucrative as mining void opals currently is. Everyone and their mother would be giving PvP a try just to at least see how well they could do.

There are many problems with PvP right now that need to be addressed. Lack or rewards, lack of reason, availability and accessability is what's driving people away from PvP.
The fact that you pretty much have to have a fully engineered ship with a healthy stack of credits to feel comfortable to take part in PvP is a huge misstep for Fdev and they really need to eventually do something about it.

PvP is not alive and well on consoles. Finding new players to battle with is nearly impossible and because of this, many players resort to ganking to try to find new people to fight with which is why I believe ganking and eventually griefing has become such a problem in elite.

I've said this a million times already but griefing will almost disappear overnight the day Fdev adds meaning and some kind of reward for consensual PvP into the game.

 

[Jockey79]

Mmmmm, you're a bit wrong there. The problem with PvP currently is that there is no reward system at all. Every other "thing to do" in elite has some kind of credit reward but with PvP the only thing you get is a rebuy screen. You're more likely to loose money than to make money which is why it scares a lot of people off.

I have a great many friends in elite that refuse to take part in PvP other than H.A.A.A.N.D.S (Cknarf's Wednesday night organized PvP battles) because there's no reason and no reward. The only real reason is to test your own piloting abilities, which is enough for people like me to continue doing it but thats not enough for most people.

Imagine if Fdev dropped an update today that somehow made consensual PvP payouts as lucrative as mining void opals currently is. Everyone and their mother would be giving PvP a try just to at least see how well they could do.

There are many problems with PvP right now that need to be addressed. Lack or rewards, lack of reason, availability and accessability is what's driving people away from PvP.
The fact that you pretty much have to have a fully engineered ship with a healthy stack of credits to feel comfortable to take part in PvP is a huge misstep for Fdev and they really need to eventually do something about it.

Oh I completely agree that there is no credit reward for PvP.

Sure kill missions can be completed and player bounties can be collected, but yes there is a much higher chance of it costing you more than you make in return.

The thing is, when you could make a profit from player bounties, people exploited the system to get easy cash.
So rewarding direct PvP became a bitter pill Frontier had to swallow, so they hit PvP rewards with the nerf bat hard.
Since then, the "reward" for PvP - is the fun of doing PvP.

Power Play is a role play reason to PvP, if you find like minded players who will PP in the same PG or stay in Open with you.
But you'll only get the RP out of it, as folks meta / 5C Power Play or you have those just module shopping messing things up.
And again, Frontier are timid over PvP rewards, which is why PvP rewards no merits in PP.

Even when they brought out CQC, within 48 hours people were cheating in it. And there isn't anything to really gain from it.

This is why I keep saying PvP is nothing more than a side show / hobby in Elite: Dangerous.
Because any attempt at serous PvP game play & rewards are met with cheating / exploiting.
And Frontier seem to not want to spend the time fixing the issues - they just nerf PvP and move on to the next thing.

 

[AP Birdman]

I have to admit, I cannot think of a single way they could implement a reward system for consensual PvP but not for ganking noobs. Or something that could be easily exploited.
I do wish that they would try though and not just give up entirely.

 

[Sylveria]

Mmmmm, you're a bit wrong there. The problem with PvP currently is that there is no reward system at all. Every other "thing to do" in elite has some kind of credit reward but with PvP the only thing you get is a rebuy screen. You're more likely to loose money than to make money which is why it scares a lot of people off.

I have a great many friends in elite that refuse to take part in PvP other than H.A.A.A.N.D.S (Cknarf's Wednesday night organized PvP battles) because there's no reason and no reward. The only real reason is to test your own piloting abilities, which is enough for people like me to continue doing it but thats not enough for most people.

Imagine if Fdev dropped an update today that somehow made consensual PvP payouts as lucrative as mining void opals currently is. Everyone and their mother would be giving PvP a try just to at least see how well they could do.

There are many problems with PvP right now that need to be addressed. Lack or rewards, lack of reason, availability and accessability is what's driving people away from PvP.
The fact that you pretty much have to have a fully engineered ship with a healthy stack of credits to feel comfortable to take part in PvP is a huge misstep for Fdev and they really need to eventually do something about it.

PvP is not alive and well on consoles. Finding new players to battle with is nearly impossible and because of this, many players resort to ganking to try to find new people to fight with which is why I believe ganking and eventually griefing has become such a problem in elite.

I've said this a million times already but griefing will almost disappear overnight the day Fdev adds meaning and some kind of reward for consensual PvP into the game.

OK, so are we going to turn this into a debate of who "deserves" to be rewarded with more?

Since the dawn of time, people have often asked the same question- who should be rewarded more, those who work smarter, or harder?

Ironically, some of the same people who talk "risk and reward" are often those who joke about how others deserve "Darwin Awards".

So if some are simply working "smarter" and not "all guns blazing, fools rush in" why do they deserve less?

 

[Sylveria]

I have to admit, I cannot think of a single way they could implement a reward system for consensual PvP but not for ganking noobs. Or something that could be easily exploited.
I do wish that they would try though and not just give up entirely.

And the point you're making is entirely valid within the context of the "Crime and Punishment" system, too.

That's exactly why it remains asymmetrical and inherently "broken" as a mechanic, even though logically IRL a justice system has always existed for those who live outside agreements within communities.

And yeah, that means even within criminal organizations, too. You eff up, and you pay the price.

 

[AP Birdman]

OK, so are we going to turn this into a debate of who "deserves" to be rewarded with more?

Since the dawn of time, people have often asked the same question- who should be rewarded more, those who work smarter, or harder?

Ironically, some of the same people who talk "risk and reward" are often those who joke about how others deserve "Darwin Awards".

So if some are simply working "smarter" and not "all guns blazing, fools rush in" why do they deserve less?

What on Earth? I never said anything about who deserves more and this isn't even a question of who deserves more. Pvpers get nothing, NOTHING for what they do and I am referring to legitimate, consensual PvP.
PvP is an enjoyable, legitimate part of the game yet there's no reason, no teams, no rewards, NOTHING! I'm not saying that we deserve more than everyone else, I'm just saying we deserve something instead of getting crapped on by Fdev.

 

[Asp Explorer]

What on Earth? I never said anything about who deserves more and this isn't even a question of who deserves more. Pvpers get nothing, NOTHING for what they do and I am referring to legitimate, consensual PvP.
PvP is an enjoyable, legitimate part of the game yet there's no reason, no teams, no rewards, NOTHING! I'm not saying that we deserve more than everyone else, I'm just saying we deserve something instead of getting crapped on by Fdev.

Perhaps if you made it rare and meaningful?...….

 

[AP Birdman]

Perhaps if you made it rare and meaningful?...….

What do you mean?

 

[Rat Catcher]

What on Earth? I never said anything about who deserves more and this isn't even a question of who deserves more. Pvpers get nothing, NOTHING for what they do and I am referring to legitimate, consensual PvP.
PvP is an enjoyable, legitimate part of the game yet there's no reason, no teams, no rewards, NOTHING! I'm not saying that we deserve more than everyone else, I'm just saying we deserve something instead of getting crapped on by Fdev.

Perhaps you might ask instead why 'other' activities, Buckyball, Canyon or SRV racing also reap no rewards?

PvP, like any other activity outside of the recognised 'paying professions' reap no reward as they are entirely optional - not a 'built-in' activity, just something you can do if you wish.

I guess you will treat this logical suggestion with your normal hostility as it doesn't 'justify' your particular niche in this game but you should at some point consider that just because an activity is possible it doesn't make it important

 

[Jockey79]

Perhaps you might ask instead why 'other' activities, Buckyball, Canyon or SRV racing also reap no rewards?

PvP, like any other activity outside of the recognised 'paying professions' reap no reward as they are entirely optional - not a 'built-in' activity, just something you can do if you wish.

I guess you will treat this logical suggestion with your normal hostility as it doesn't 'justify' your particular niche in this game but you should at some point consider that just because an activity is possible it doesn't make it important

While I agree with this, I'm going to play devils advocate here;

Buckyball, Canyon or SRV racing are not Frontier promoted activities, where as PvP is.

The current website has;

Rogue commanders are those pilots who have betrayed the Pilots federation by turning on their own; those pilots can carry huge bounties, making them prime targets for skilled hunters.

The old website used to have "Hunt other commanders" as a listed activity. Both versions clearly pushing direct, pew pew style PvP.
Also on several occasions when Frontier has been asked about "griefing", they've responded that the players will be able to hunt down "griefers" and deal with them themselves (more PvP advertising).

We've not even touched on Power Play and Sandro saying;

Make no mistake, one element of Powerplay is about competition within a power - that's intentional, but it's also about grand scale territory control between powers, offering context and reward for consensual PvP competition and letting Commanders feel part of a team, which this mechanic would support.

Also, the mission system was updated to include PvP kills for the kill mission types.
So those "Kill 10 pirates" or "Kill 20 traders" missions can be completed by nothing but PvP kills.

So while your point is valid and I've also tried, over and over again to highlight that PvP is completely optional, until my CTRL+V is blue in the face.
I do fully understand why PvP'ers are bitter and angry. As it's Frontier who have created a situation where they keep advertising PvP as a major part of the game.
But have failed to actually implement it in such a way where PvP'ers actually get rewarded properly for playing the game.

Those "Rouge commanders" can just mode hop to avoid anyone collecting the bounties, those traders you want to kill can just jump to Mobius and so on.
So PvP'ers are left high and dry for content, despite Frontier telling them for years they can come here to PvP.

The thing is, PvP'ers are directing their anger at the mode system and at PvE'ers.
When really, it should be aimed at Frontier.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Snip...

The thing is, PvP'ers are directing their anger at the mode system and at PvE'ers.
When really, it should be aimed at Frontier.

Your points are very good and valid (even without playing Devil's Advocate ) for the way the game has been marketed (and implemented) by FDev.

As PP PvP doesn't provide sufficient fodder for PvP appetites I don't see a way that FD can create sufficient content to satisfy their wants while giving those who don't wish to be someone elses 'content' the option to play in open (as I find it hard to believe that PvP against 'lesser' builds would disappear overnight if 'meaningful' PvP content was provided),

 

[AP Birdman]

Perhaps you might ask instead why 'other' activities, Buckyball, Canyon or SRV racing also reap no rewards?

PvP, like any other activity outside of the recognised 'paying professions' reap no reward as they are entirely optional - not a 'built-in' activity, just something you can do if you wish.

I guess you will treat this logical suggestion with your normal hostility as it doesn't 'justify' your particular niche in this game but you should at some point consider that just because an activity is possible it doesn't make it important

Who's the one being hostile?

You have a bit of a point but the only thing I would argue is that things like Buckyball are player created activities and PvP is a dev created activity that was intended to be in the game from the get go. I would liken consensual PvP to bounty hunting, which does payout.