Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... bearing in mind that "fun" is entirely subjective and what constitutes it, or not, varies from player to player.
I'll respond to this thread properly when I'm not about to hit the hay and thus have time to read the whole of it, but three things specifically hit me from just reading the OP:
1: With the amount of combat oriented ships FDev has put into the game, it should come as no surprise that a portion of the population of the game would wish to test their ship builds and skill levels against each other.
2: With the ability to enter private groups or solo play, this game already has more of an option to avoid PvP than many online oriented games which implement it, and thus entering Open could be seen as an implied willingness to partake in emergent or organised PvP to some extent. Whilst I admit that this is not going to be the case for people who merely want to meet others players for the sake of socialization et cetera, the best example I can come up with by way of analogy is that of many MMORPGs. If one wishes to meet new people they can stay in the starter area to do so, but they'll miss out on a lot of content if they don't venture "into the wild" where they may come across PvP. Whilst the starter area may have tutorials, in many games the hub is about as engaging as a station dock as far as gameplay options go.
3: The fact that this thread is titled "why does it even exist seems to betray a bias in the OP towards associating PvP combat with "ganking" as opposed to the myriad versions which it can and often does take.
I plan to make a more balanced response to the thread as a whole later once I've had time to properly read it through, and sorry if I'm repeating what others have said already due to merely responding to the OP at present. From my reading of the OP I would hazard a guess that they do not like PvP as a system in as of itself, and this would be something I would be interested to explore more thoroughly once I've caught up and made sure I'm not re-hashing others' statements.
1: With the amount of combat oriented ships FDev has put into the game, it should come as no surprise that a portion of the population of the game would wish to test their ship builds and skill levels against each other.
2: With the ability to enter private groups or solo play, this game already has more of an option to avoid PvP than many online oriented games which implement it, and thus entering Open could be seen as an implied willingness to partake in emergent or organised PvP to some extent. Whilst I admit that this is not going to be the case for people who merely want to meet others players for the sake of socialization et cetera, the best example I can come up with by way of analogy is that of many MMORPGs. If one wishes to meet new people they can stay in the starter area to do so, but they'll miss out on a lot of content if they don't venture "into the wild" where they may come across PvP. Whilst the starter area may have tutorials, in many games the hub is about as engaging as a station dock as far as gameplay options go.
3: The fact that this thread is titled "why does it even exist seems to betray a bias in the OP towards associating PvP combat with "ganking" as opposed to the myriad versions which it can and often does take.
I plan to make a more balanced response to the thread as a whole later once I've had time to properly read it through, and sorry if I'm repeating what others have said already due to merely responding to the OP at present. From my reading of the OP I would hazard a guess that they do not like PvP as a system in as of itself, and this would be something I would be interested to explore more thoroughly once I've caught up and made sure I'm not re-hashing others' statements.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
That's why I'm grinding a bit and thinking about your thread very gently
It's not my thread.
I'm my own worst enemy, therefore i PvP with myself in solo.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Ha That made me chuckle. WP Cmdr.
you seem to forget the many reasons behind pvp
powerplay
piracy
faction wars
disputes
cults
blockades
pvp is an element in elite that exists, don't like it, don't play in open because nothing going to change. perhaps instead of everyone moaning about being griefed or ganked, get on the game and get better at getting away. we all get killed in any game but I hope this sorta b s doesn't spread to sea of thieves
Because it sells games... the decision was probably made when talk of Elite 4 surfaced again in 2005/6, so in reality PvP was (though perhaps not envisaged in such ferocity) part of the 'list of things to do' back then,
Goose4291
Banned
That's not exactly the same thing is it?
I’d like to address this common misconception: all PvPers are identical. In my experience, while many players have an interest in PvP, most of those I wouldn’t describe as “PvP players.” We are what I would describe as “PvP fence sitters.” We have an interest in PvP, but it’s not the primary focus of our game, let alone our sole focus.
We have an interest in PvP for a variety of reasons. Personally, I enjoy the different challenges players can bring to the game, and because IMO it can be a better avenue for role-playing. Others enjoy the adrenaline fix. Sone simply dabble from time to time.
One such group of “PvP fence sitters” are commonly called “player-killers.” They don’t have an interest in PvP, beyond the fact that it’s what allows them to kill other players in the game. They have no interest in a fair fight, just ones they can win. So rather than targeting the players most interested in PvP, who are both equipped to defend themselves and also have the skills to do so effectively, they preferentially attack those the least interested in PvP.
To a certain point player correlation keep being heavy conflicted, following the inherent potential of competition. I do believe as well, choosing Open as a playground is - to a point - a consent.
Not trying to pin any "faults" to anyone, especially not on Frontier, I do no longer believe "fun factor" is enough for PvP, the matter settled, rendering "assaults" in Open in many or most cases a "criminal act", crime report against the CMDR set to "On". Here I see, PvP under the light of the inherent short comings modes provide, namely their parallel detachment cos PvP to hang out dry, without any leverage to core game mechanics like Power play and BGS manipulation.
Abuse in a sense, if all you have of it is "fun". I am aware of the technical side of the problems, time zones, P2P and such, which I think can be neglected since they exist for the PVE side just as well. Inarguable there is a heavy focus on PVE-MP, PVP seams more like a gimmick in this regard which is very unfortunate for a powerful game mechanic like PVP, will, I think it shows, unsettle the game or its player base until getting more weight.
I like what Darkfyre has to say.
Elite is a big game. We like to try and chop it up into it’s component parts - BGS, PvP, PowerPlay, whatever - but when you approach it holistically it just kind makes a lot more sense.
Elite is a big game. We like to try and chop it up into it’s component parts - BGS, PvP, PowerPlay, whatever - but when you approach it holistically it just kind makes a lot more sense.
Well said!
Wow, talk about taking things out of context. I thought you wanted to keep things civil.
Just to be clear, what I’m talking about is using PvP to defend a controlling faction. You simply can’t, because any “defensive” PvP action you can take is functionally identical to using PvP to attack a controlling faction. Which is not only possible in this game, but actually makes sense strategically. If you are attacking a controlling faction, it only makes sense to scare away any potential ally the faction has, isolating it from all support.
Assuming, of course, you can get around the numerous instancing opportunities in this game.
There is one major reason to PvP in regards to BGS manipulation or Powerplay: because you enjoy it. Just be aware of the potential effects of your actions, and the effectiveness thereof.
Why does PvP exist?
Because at some point in time, the feds and imps are going to have to call it and start a civil war already. That will lead to two large factions being natural enemies. Which means that PvP players get a large pool of allies and enemies with context in the game's narrative. I'd be very happy to exist as a neutral in this conflict having the Bubble burn around me, nudging Thargoids going: human's eh?
Imp i-Pods vs feds shipping containers. Chapter 5: Elite - Civil War. Bring it.
Because at some point in time, the feds and imps are going to have to call it and start a civil war already. That will lead to two large factions being natural enemies. Which means that PvP players get a large pool of allies and enemies with context in the game's narrative. I'd be very happy to exist as a neutral in this conflict having the Bubble burn around me, nudging Thargoids going: human's eh?
Imp i-Pods vs feds shipping containers. Chapter 5: Elite - Civil War. Bring it.
As sensible summarization, however I do not share your optimistic conclusion, Open does not, so it appears to me, bundle pilots up to the task and risk.
Without a doubt Frontier made its homework setting up the game. But, do they understand PvP?
You are showing aspects of the phenomenon PvP and: "the more interesting potentially competitive aspects of the game reward avoiding PvP" shows where PVP in Open has its weaknesses.
Certainly: "this game is not designed with fun PvP in mind" .
As a sand box, providing everyone here with freedom and the liberty to us it: "carve your own way" , fantastic chances! - and befitting a vehicle "combat" experience on a vast playground.
You strike a sensible point here. One upsetting this community for years. The consequences, a mode "trinity", "importune" encounters and ever so itself repeating calls about why Open is such a let down for descent people...
It slowly dawned on me
might be, Frontier didn't implemented PvP in Open as consequently as the matter implies. Cheers
No, they do not.
Just look at the games they made, all single player.
ED is their first MMO.
And it should never have been called an MMO.
Sitting on that fence, is it?
Can't find any fault in what you portray.
Open.
Naive, as I ever was!, I thought I accomplish something, killing other pilots. Little did I know. Being used to PvP, vehicle Combat - mostly flying crates, of one sort or the other, provides you with a sense and an awareness. A respect. You'll see whom you are up against in the minute. And Elite makes no difference.
Ad heart role playing, old school, I am a player killer. Advantage on my side, strictly committed to something I uphold and do not waver. An opportunist.
Never killed anyone as long as Engineers where a thing, though. Gone soft. Not gonna need any competition, since no one is me and "Ich buhle nicht".
Upholding consequences, leads to an disadvantage for sensible fliers, like you and me.
Well said!
Wow, talk about taking things out of context. I thought you wanted to keep things civil.
Just to be clear, what I’m talking about is using PvP to defend a controlling faction. You simply can’t, because any “defensive” PvP action you can take is functionally identical to using PvP to attack a controlling faction. Which is not only possible in this game, but actually makes sense strategically. If you are attacking a controlling faction, it only makes sense to scare away any potential ally the faction has, isolating it from all support.
Assuming, of course, you can get around the numerous instancing opportunities in this game.
There is one major reason to PvP in regards to BGS manipulation or Powerplay: because you enjoy it. Just be aware of the potential effects of your actions, and the effectiveness thereof.
Why would I ever take a Ladies like you out of context?
Failing, to provide the necessary context seems to be my fault here. Sincerely.
I quoted you, because what you said seems true. Implying, PvP to counter this PvE heavy is nearly futile.
PP and BGS under Elite's limits are hardly countered in PvP.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed.
As mentioned earlier, if PvP had an impact on the BGS (and Powerplay - but that's in limbo at the moment so I'll leave it out) then it would be prone to collusion between players, i.e. uncontested encounters where one player gains all of the reward for no risk.
If PvP is considered to have been hung out to dry then that is probably due to the fact that a significant subset of the player-base choose not to get involved in it (from what one Dev has indicated). If "fun factor" is not enough for PvP then there does not seem to be much likelihood of players who don't find PvP to be fun to want to play among players who do enjoy PvP.
I don't agree that PvE suffers from technical issues in the same way - as it is an indirect asynchronous form of competition (if it is competition at all). PvP, on the other hand, requires two or more players to be in the same instance at the same time - that's quite different from filling BGS buckets.
The three game modes / shared galaxy state, plus the sheer size of the game-world, mean that the game was always going to be heavily PvE focused - as there has to be a game for players to play when there are no players around.
Let me remind the honored audience of the following:
The modes are brilliant.
Open == RL. Dog eats dog, rat eats rat. You can have that in RL too, but what do do in your leisure time then?
O7,
[noob]