Why Frontier are wrong to keep nerfing high credit earning methods.

[Hevak]

In most cases and in The recent skimmer case then game performed and did EXACTLY what FDev programmed it and told it to do. All systems in the game were doing exactly what their programming said to do in the situation the code found itself in.

Now this may not have been what FDev intended their programming to do, and well maybe they should have tested some things more, especially after the first instance EXACTLY like this that resulted in missions being changed.

But if some people are seriously going to say that anything un intended by a developer is an exploit and players should always be thinking if thing are intended by the devs or not, I'm sorry but you are bat-poop crazy.

You're essentially saying every one who plays any video game needs to be constantly going oh gee, is what I'm doing intended? Did the devs intended for my grenade to kill 10 enemies? Hmm maybe I shouldn't use grenades. Gee I just made way more money killing dragons than I did goblins, hmmm did they intend it to give me this much? Better stop killing those.

Hmm this rifle/bazooka/tank/ship/laser/sword/club/fist is way more powerful than any other weapon I've had before. Was this intended? Better stop using it.

Because if you don't and they didn't intend it, no matter if it was programmed that way or not, well then you are and dirty exploit using cheater.

Again I'm not saying the skimmer missions were not outrageous and over the top. I'm just saying players are not required in these types of situations, or ever really, to determine if normal gameplay is intended or not. And these were normal gameplay.

Ever wonder why the real exploits, like the g5 for g1 mats one, are not posted every where? And usually are kept quiet as much as possible for awhile. While these credit gold mines are always posted everywhere? Because in one of these cases there is absolutely no doubt it is cheating and an exploit. In the other it is just normal gameplay and their normal programming they didn't bother to check or adjust.

This should have never happened to be frank. Once the whole massacre mission debacle came up, FDev should have taken a long serious look at the mission system, and tested everything in it. This is exactly like massacre missions, and FDev thought oh, it's not going to happen anywhere else.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

In most cases and in The recent skimmer case then game performed and did EXACTLY what FDev programmed it and told it to do. All systems in the game were doing exactly what their programming said to do in the situation the code found itself in.

Now this may not have been what FDev intended their programming to do, and well maybe they should have tested some things more, especially after the first instance EXACTLY like this that resulted in missions being changed.

But if some people are seriously going to say that anything un intended by a developer is an exploit and players should always be thinking if thing are intended by the devs or not, I'm sorry but you are bat-poop crazy.

You're essentially saying every one who plays any video game needs to be constantly going oh gee, is what I'm doing intended? Did the devs intended for my grenade to kill 10 enemies? Hmm maybe I shouldn't use grenades. Gee I just made way more money killing dragons than I did goblins, hmmm did they intend it to give me this much? Better stop killing those.

Hmm this rifle/bazooka/tank/ship/laser/sword/club/fist is way more powerful than any other weapon I've had before. Was this intended? Better stop using it.

Because if you don't and they didn't intend it, no matter if it was programmed that way or not, well then you are and dirty exploit using cheater.

Again I'm not saying the skimmer missions were not outrageous and over the top. I'm just saying players are not required in these types of situations, or ever really, to determine if normal gameplay is intended or not. And these were normal gameplay.

Ever wonder why the real exploits, like the g5 for g1 mats one, are not posted every where? And usually are kept quiet as much as possible for awhile. While these credit gold mines are always posted everywhere? Because in one of these cases there is absolutely no doubt it is cheating and an exploit. In the other it is just normal gameplay and their normal programming they didn't bother to check or adjust.

This should have never happened to be frank. Once the whole massacre mission debacle came up, FDev should have taken a long serious look at the mission system, and tested everything in it. This is exactly like massacre missions, and FDev thought oh, it's not going to happen anywhere else.

"The code let me do it." is a lack of self-reflection I think.

Code only does what it is allowed to and programmers make mistakes.
The code let players get G5 updates for G1 prices - you telling me that wasn't an exploit?

This seems like yet another quirk of where a system is, how far from how many neighbours, and what the BGS state happens to be at the time.
These combinations will always produce outliers that stretch the mission generation system and produce unintended results.

FD have acted, so clearly they felt this was unintended. That's their decision.

This issue will be a recurring theme until the mission system becomes a bit more persistent and self-examining.
Already spawned 3 of the same mission type to the same destination for the same faction? Don't spawn any more.

Relogging will always defeat that until there is some persistence.

 

[Elan]

If said high credit earning methods are also linked to bugged mechanics, then FDev are absolutely right to nerf them.

 

[coca_fr]

If said high credit earning methods are also linked to bugged mechanics, then FDev are absolutely right to nerf them.

Instead of nerfing things they needs to rework their mission system completly.

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

I do agree in most of the cases, but when you have 2B sitting there in your account, definitely getting paid more would not add anything to it. Whay would you do with 20B that you haven't done already?

Well it's a strange thing but even with the current 4Bn in my account, if I saw a mission on the board for, say, 7mill to take cargo to a neighbouring system, I'd gladly do it. It's not completely about the money but I want it to be worth my while.
20billion is a bit out there

As for the mission scaling it would have to be capped for players who's wealth is above a certain amount.

 

[Hevak]

"The code let me do it." is a lack of self-reflection I think.

Code only does what it is allowed to and programmers make mistakes.
The code let players get G5 updates for G1 prices - you telling me that wasn't an exploit?

This seems like yet another quirk of where a system is, how far from how many neighbours, and what the BGS state happens to be at the time.
These combinations will always produce outliers that stretch the mission generation system and produce unintended results.

FD have acted, so clearly they felt this was unintended. That's their decision.

This issue will be a recurring theme until the mission system becomes a bit more persistent and self-examining.
Already spawned 3 of the same mission type to the same destination for the same faction? Don't spawn any more.

Relogging will always defeat that until there is some persistence.

This was all done in the course of normal game play.

The code didn't allow people to do the G5 in the course of normal gameplay it was server lag, it was technical issues, and breaking the game. and you also new without a doubt, by learning the game mechanics from the start this was not at all right, because the game mechanics clearly showed you what was supposed to be done.

Just like with missions all mechanics show this is the way it works. This was just an outrageous case that needed to be changed. Just like an over powerful weapon.

You had to take very specific steps, in a very specific time frame to get the G5 mats thing to work. There is huge a difference here and I don't see how people cant see this difference.

Basically you are saying that everything that is ever nerfed in any video game ever is an exploit and any one who uses whatever was nerfed is an exploiter and cheater.

Because well they only nerf things when they didn't intend to be the way they are.

So then there really is no discussion, every one who plays games is an exploiter and cheater.

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

But here is why not calling it an exploit is correct.

Can I just stop you there.... it WAS an exploit.

It was an exploit for 3 reasons.

1) You could complete missions at Oxley Keep that were supposed to be completed at Harding's Folly.. I know it's a faction thing but it needs sorting. If it's intended gameplay then the mission cannot be telling you to go to a direct place but instead say "..at Oxleys keep or Hardings Folly"
Its like delivering a letter to house No.18 when it's addressed to No.45 and it being ok because it's on the same street.

2) Instance swapping (Apparently Frontier don't police this as an exploit because technically there is no current way to stop it). Some say there was no board swapping but in some cases you had to unless you wanted to wait or take on cheaper missions.

3) Frontier nerfed it! That reason alone is enough to classify it as an exploit. An exploit is taking an advantage of unintended gameplay for your own gain. If it was intended gameplay then it would not have been nerfed. Simple as that.

 

[CrossTheRiver]

I wonder if anyone is making a functional difference between "nerf" and "disabled". Fdev turned off the mission. They aren't nerfed but I think we can safely assume they will be. That said, I think we take fdev at their word, they are disabling the missions to do a balance pass, or fix a bug or whatever. To say blatantly that clearly makes it an exploit is speaking for fdev when you shouldn't. For now the missions are gone. At some point we will likely get some clarification.

That said let's not ignore why the community, as in the larger portion of players, not just forum and reddit peoples, love this sort of thing. They love it because of the rush to get a quick buck before fdev turns off the credit faucet. These should be community events. You could easily rally a ton of player activity around these gold rush scenarios and have it not interfere with CGs at all. We should all be asking Fdev to examine that as a possibility rather than bickering with each other or making far fetched claims that 90% of the community isn't complaining. It would be more accurate to say 90% of the community moved on after the mission was disabled. That doesn't mean they wouldn't want it back or something to replace it.

 

[Cervantes01]

That's not quite true. If one or two 'cheaters' were doing it and kept it to themselves, none of this would have happened.
But when popular YouTubers advertise the fact on a video because clicks, views, subs and donations are more important to them, then thousands of people flock to these sites and flags get thrown up on Frontiers servers.

A lot of people don't seem to realise that these very skimmer missions with the same rewards were in 2.4 also. They've been around for a while.
But when 3.0 launched, certain people (who shall remain nameless) go off actively looking for expoits and ask others to help them find some so they can advertise them. I guess this one was found amongst that search and then they let the cat out of the bag and that killed your missions.

But the fact remains that what other people do to exploit more credits has no affect on my game whatsoever, so why should I suffer and have my favourite missions removed when I haven't exploited them?

Why is my fun OK to sacrificed under the nerf bat when I'm playing as intended?

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

But the fact remains that what other people do to exploit more credits has no affect on my game whatsoever, so why should I suffer and have my favourite missions removed when I haven't exploited them?

Why is my fun OK to sacrificed under the nerf bat when I'm playing as intended?

i havent got addicted to illegal narcotics so why should they be illegal just because lots of people have got addicted and go around burgling houses and causing misery to innocent people?

hmm this is a great argument to legalise everything. 'i wasnt doing anything harmful why stop me because other people got hurt/were causing harm?'

this is always the way with everything. a certain segment of humanity cannot play nice. this includes griefers (bullies and sadists) and cheaters (dont learn anything becos never can bear to lose because their real life is total fail or however it works in their heads). and this is why we cant have noice things.

being serious for a tau muon, the chief arguments against the mega credit shortcuts are down to FD not wanting people to think they are at endgame, slaughter some people in pvp who arent exploiting and so cant fight back (because this is indistinguishable from griefing) and dont want them to miss all the cool subtle 'stories' like about alien ruins, guardians, thargoids, barnacles etc. becos they 'endgamed to the pvp mp like in Call of Duty' which is what they expect all games with any weapons to be about, played for a whule and got bored/bought next AAA shooter game and p+++++ off to play that, never spending any more money on elite. FD dont want to milk those people like EA do for some reason. they dont want thousands of dormant/extinct commander accounts maybe from all the people mistaking a sandbox for a yearly iterated first person shooter type game.

 

[Kaleban]

i havent got addicted to illegal narcotics so why should they be illegal just because lots of people have got addicted and go around burgling houses and causing misery to innocent people?

hmm this is a great argument to legalise everything. 'i wasnt doing anything harmful why stop me because other people got hurt/were causing harm?'

It's a great argument to legalize everything because nobody is being harmed/burgled/caused misery by the actions of ANY player in game.

Let's face it, the crux of the matter is credits are a means to a starting point. One Anaconda or ten Anacondas each outfitted for different jobs, the limiting factor and what causes people to take the shortest path is rebuy costs, or being paranoid and risk averse, which are good survival instincts.

Once you have the ships you want as a jumping off point, then you have the Engineering process just to be on par with the PvP community or the famous Railgun of Death that NPC ships had at one point.

Bottom line is, "playing as intended" means most players would still be flying Asp Explorers as their top of the line ship, scraping jobs together on the fringes of space Firefly-style. Which would be awesome if the game was designed around that experience, but unfortunately it's currently balanced around random enemies, both player AND NPC being able to alpha-strike frag your ship back to the re-buy screen in relatively short order. The balance of play time vs. real life obligations means MOST people aren't going to risk high dollar investments (i.e. half a billion Anacondas) unless they have a significant nest egg to weather disconnects/engine bugs/balancing issues/etc.

There's a reason most MMOs have a zero risk "corpse recovery" option that avoids entirely or extremely minimizes penalties to the player. That Elite doesn't, and that there needs to be multiple guides and PSAs to advise people not to fly without multiple re-buys should be a sign to even the most ardent nerf defender that something is very wrong on balance. If you eliminated re-buys and just had a respawn option, people could PLAY without fear, rather than grind as a hedge bet against inevitable catastrophe.

 

[ilo]

But the fact remains that what other people do to exploit more credits has no affect on my game whatsoever, so why should I suffer and have my favourite missions removed when I haven't exploited them?

Why is my fun OK to sacrificed under the nerf bat when I'm playing as intended?

Don't worry, you will get your fun and skimmers back soon, be patient. Now, if you think they should work exactly as they were, then you have to stop using them/me - they exploit/I have fun. Would you be ok to have skimmers missions for 100k?

 

[krylite]

It's hilarious, how the same cycle continues over again. The exploit only gets reported when those who made off with their billions report it to get it nerfed to cut off everyone else. It's like another unintentional aspect of ED numbers 'gameplay'. That said, I think FD need to put in some automated warning code traps where if someone is making off with over x mill /hr for consecutive hours, then the trap needs to highlight where and what the related exploit code is so it can be fix and nerfed asap.

And I like OAnt and his videos, but I don't understand him this time. I thought he enjoyed cruising around and exploring the game in his trusty white 'apollo' Aspx in many of his past videos. Did he want a big three all this time after all? Well, we did catch him not knowing what a corvette looked like in the initial thargoid return action trailer video where he initially thought it was a special ship. Or that other time he didn't know you could "pay" in rep for engr'd special effects in the old system, lol.

 

[ilo]

It's hilarious, how the same cycle continues over again. The exploit only gets reported when those who made off with their billions report it to get it nerfed to cut off everyone else. It's like another unintentional aspect of ED numbers 'gameplay'. That said, I think FD need to put in some automated warning code traps where if someone is making off with over x mill /hr for consecutive hours, then the trap needs to highlight where and what the related exploit code is.

when you say 'only gets reported when those who made off with their billions report it', you mean when they made it a 'clickbait' in youtube? yes, you are right. Or.. do you think FD doesn't know about YouTube?

 

[Hevak]

Can I just stop you there.... it WAS an exploit.

It was an exploit for 3 reasons.

1) You could complete missions at Oxley Keep that were supposed to be completed at Harding's Folly.. I know it's a faction thing but it need sorting. If it's intended gameplay then the mission cannot be telling you to go to a direct place but instead say "..at Oxleys keep or Hardings Folly"
Its like delivering a letter to house No.18 when it's addressed to No.45 and it being ok because it's on the same street.

2) Instance swapping (Frontier don't police this as an exploit because technically there is no current way to stop it. Some say there was no board swapping but in some cases you had to unless you wanted to wait or take on cheaper missions.

3) Frontier nerfed it! That reason alone is enough to classify it as an exploit. An exploit is taking an advantage of unintended gameplay for your own gain. If it was intended gameplay then it would not have been nerfed. Simple as that.

If #1 was happening then yes that specific thing is an exploit. I didn't do #1. All my missions went to oxley keep and that is where I went. There was more than enough to do for the one place. Until your post I wasn't aware that was happening.

#2 this wasn't neccesarily unless you're militant about having 20 every time, there was the max # of factions in this system, plenty of oxley keep ones to make more than enough. Also FDev flat out said they don't care about board flipping. They don't feel it should be done, but they said they don't care. So just drop that argument all together.

#3 so you're saying that you cheat in every video game you play then right? Everyone does. If you ever used a heat weapon in ED or the PA? They just nerfed, or any weapon they nerfed? Or any module they changed, or anything that is ever nerfed that you have ever had or owned in game means you're a cheater. Can you not see how fallible this argument is? Things are nerfed all the time in every game, and if being nerfed is enough to say it's an exploit well then everyone exploits and cheats. So then why does it matter?

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

But the fact remains that what other people do to exploit more credits has no affect on my game whatsoever, so why should I suffer and have my favourite missions removed when I haven't exploited them?

Why is my fun OK to sacrificed under the nerf bat when I'm playing as intended?

1) Because it's not all about you.

2) You will have to define what is 'your fun' in this case.

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

Also FDev flat out said they don't care about board flipping. They don't feel it should be done, but they said they don't care. So just drop that argument all together.

I will not drop it. I already brought that up in my post. It's not something they can police or stop atm so they HAVE to be ok about it.
Try and understand the difference.

#3 so you're saying that you cheat in every video game you play then right?

What ?! How on Earth have I said that? I've never mentioned other games that I play and they are not affected by anything Frontier does. Not every came has nerfs. Get some perspective here.

Everyone does. If you ever used a heat weapon in ED or the PA? They just nerfed, or any weapon they nerfed? Or any module they changed, or anything that is ever nerfed that you have ever had or owned in game means you're a cheater. Can you not see how fallible this argument is? Things are nerfed all the time in every game, and if being nerfed is enough to say it's an exploit well then everyone exploits and cheats. So then why does it matter?

This is utter rubbish. Two reasons, things in games (lets stick to Elite) get nerfed for a variety of reasons. Stuff needs tweaking, stuff is over powered, something not quite working right or is out of balance etc etc etc. That's a decision at the devs door. It doesn follow that players are cheating or exploiting. Especially if they are unaware of said imbalance, tweak necessity or whatever.
Secondly, to cheat (and to an extent to exploit), there has to be an intent behind it. You cannot cheat accidentally.
If I used Advanced Plasmas and kill 20 CMDRs then Frontier say they were overpowered and nerf them by 30%, that does NOT mean I cheated. There was no intent to do that.
With the skimmer missions, anyone with a bit of intellect would know it was not intentional gameplay so there was intent there for most people.
Even during the missions people from all over were saying it would be nerfed the next day. They KNEW it was gameplay that Frontier did not intend and you only have to look at the history of stuff like this to know that. Frontiers correct reaction should come as a surprise to nobody.

So remember, cheating requires intent. People who exploited this gameplay for their own gain knowing Frontier were going to nerf it soon and therefore did as much as they could, also had intent.
And everything in a game that gets nerfed (and not every game does get a nerf) that people have used, does not in any way mean that all the people who used it were cheaters.

I can't believe I had to explain that to you. Then you talk to me about fallible arguments. Geez.

 

[Hevak]

I will not drop it. I already brought that up in my post. It's not something they can police or stop atm so they HAVE to be ok about it.
Try and understand the difference.


What ?! How on Earth have I said that? I've never mentioned other games that I play and they are not affected by anything Frontier does. Not every came has nerfs. Get some perspective here.



This is utter rubbish. Two reasons, things in games (lets stick to Elite) get nerfed for a variety of reasons. Stuff needs tweaking, stuff is over powered, something not quite working right or is out of balance etc etc etc. That's a decision at the devs door. It doesn follow that players are cheating or exploiting. Especially if they are unaware of said imbalance, tweak necessity or whatever.
Secondly, to cheat (and to an extent to exploit), there has to be an intent behind it. You cannot cheat accidentally.
If I used Advanced Plasmas and kill 20 CMDRs then Frontier say they were overpowered and nerf them by 30%, that does NOT mean I cheated. There was no intent to do that.
With the skimmer missions, anyone with a bit of intellect would know it was not intentional gameplay so there was intent there for most people.
Even during the missions people from all over were saying it would be nerfed the next day. They KNEW it was gameplay that Frontier did not intend and you only have to look at the history of stuff like this to know that. Frontiers correct reaction should come as a surprise to nobody.

So remember, cheating requires intent. People who exploited this gameplay for their own gain knowing Frontier were going to nerf it soon and therefore did as much as they could, also had intent.
And everything in a game that gets nerfed (and not every game does get a nerf) that people have used, does not in any way mean that all the people who used it were cheaters.

I can't believe I had to explain that to you. Then you talk to me about fallible arguments. Geez.

Can I just stop you there.... it WAS an exploit.

3) Frontier nerfed it! That reason alone is enough to classify it as an exploit. An exploit is taking an advantage of unintended gameplay for your own gain. If it was intended gameplay then it would not have been nerfed. Simple as that.

Ok I can't believe that I have to explain THIS to YOU [woah]. You see right there? Your own words? You said it was nerfed and that reason alone means it's an exploit. So what I said stands. And YES EVERY GAME NERFS THINGS. Lol are you serious right now? Every game has op stuff, unbalanced stuff and something gets nerfed. And by your own logic if it's nerfed it was an exploit, therefore you and me and every gamer is a cheater and exploiter. By your own fallible logic. Or else you have no idea what the hell it is you are saying at all.

But hows this for you rusty puppy. FDev punished those who did G5 for g1 that alone means it was a cheating exploit. They punished no one for skimmers and said they won't. They punished no one for quince, Robigo, massacres etc. and that alone proves it wasn't an exploit. :x

 

[CMDR Rusty Dog]

Ok I can't believe that I have to explain THIS to YOU [woah]. You see right there? Your own words? You said it was nerfed and that reason alone means it's an exploit. So what I said stands. And YES EVERY GAME NERFS THINGS.

Yes when Frontier do it it's because it's unintended gameplay. Making use of unintended gameplay for your own gain (intentionally!!!!!) is exploitative. Again it requires intent.

Every exploit needs nerfing but not every nerf is an exploit. This is not difficult to understand.

Lol are you serious right now?

Right now ? No, but I was back then. When would you prefer me to be serious ? What's with the 'right now' qualifier ?

Every game has op stuff, unbalanced stuff and something gets nerfed.

Ok please tell me what the nerfs were in SpinTires:Mudrunner, I Am Bread, Microsoft Chess, Microsoft Solitaire, The Room and Portal.
You're going to need to answer for all of those to qualify your argument. I don't currently believe you know the changelogs for every game ever produced. You are generalising to try and support an argument that you don't fully grasp.

And by your own logic if it's nerfed it was an exploit, therefore you and me and every gamer is a cheater and exploiter. By your own fallible logic. Or else you have no idea what the hell it is you are saying at all.

No, that's YOUR logic. I know what I'M saying and it certainly isn't the ramblings that you're coming out with.
You don't even know there's a difference between exploiters and cheaters. It's all a question of the depth of the intent.
I'm saying this in the context of these missions, not if it was an overpowered plasma accelerator ! Show me a weapon that spawns millions of credits every time you fire it and I'll show you an exploit that's about to get the nerf hammer.
The term 'nerf' is used way too loosely so maybe this is causing your confusion.
If Frontier REDUCE the jump range of a ship by 5% it does not mean that everybody who has previously jumped in that ship was an exploiter or a cheater. That's just ridiculous. That's a tweak and something quite different to squashing the ability of thousands of players to become overnight billionaires using game mechanics the devs did not intend for.
You can try and twist my words to suit your argument but I am very capable of untwisting them and then you'll just look foolish so please try and some up with something more cerebral.

But hows this for you rusty puppy.

Don't make this childish and personal. Apart from that it stunts any credibility you're trying to hang on to, it's a losing path for you to go down.

FDev punished those who did G5 for g1 that alone means it was a cheating exploit. They punished no one for skimmers and said they won't. They punished no one for quince, Robigo, massacres etc. and that alone proves it wasn't an exploit. :x

Exploits vary in scale based on their consequences. This is why the reactions from Frontier are different.
Your logic is very much flawed. Not punishing people may have numerous reasons. Like how much backlash it would cause and therefore is it worth it? Maybe no real harm done so put it down to FDev's own mistake and let it go. How much damage or knock on effect does it have ? Whatever, there are loads of reasons. NONE of that means that it was not an exploit.
The G5 for G1 thing was blatant exploitation and those people were rightly punished. Quince was clearly exploitative, that's not even a debate. Robigo was a stupid and lazy nerf imo and should have been fixed in other ways. Massacres, again, had to be sorted and Frontier happened to come up with a neat solution that arguably should have been there from the start.
What you consider to be proof doesn't make it fact. Only in your mind.
Whether Frontier choose to punish players or not does not dictate whether something was or was not an exploit.

If this was not an exploit, then why did Frontier shut it down in short order? I'm keen to know your logic on that one.

 

[Hevak]

Oh ok I see. You're the one and only definer of exploits and not. Got it.

I don't really care either way. I'm flying my newly a rated corvette to engineers to engineer this stuff. Then I'm on to find the best way to find whatever mats I need before they nerf all the new missions rewards that give out insane amounts of the top tier mats for doing absolutely nothing. Oops guess Im exploiting and cheating ooooooooooooohhhhhhhh no.

You best go get a new thread started stat, post haste. Hurry now. Wanna go for ride huh doya, oooooh you know you do,,, ohhh wiggle wittle thing wann go for a ride?

Oh and don't worry, I'll post my this game sucks there is nothing to do in ED thread in about a week or two for y'all. Since I'm now going to find out there is nothing to do in ED since I have a corvette.