Why FSS Mode Must Go

[marx]

No idea, but I know that their motive is clearly not for "Making E: D great again", given their previously held views.

See, your logical fallacy is ad hominem. If you wish to make a point, use a real argument next time.
As for that silly phrase: bear in mind that for many people, the Chapter Four update made some things actively worse, and for them, making Elite better would mean fixing the bad things it introduced. This isn't just limited to exploration either: there are lots of serious bugs still left which need to be fixed.

Of course, at the end of the day, Frontier will do what they will anyway.

 

[Darkfyre99]

So you're quite ok with instant and perfect system body identification, but revealing the top level system body hierarchy (only) via an incomplete orrery is not?

I’m not OK with that, which was why I disliked the ADS in the first place. It was rubbish from a discovery gameplay point of view.

That’s also why I like the FSS. It requires at least some input from the player to get access to this information, which allows players to engage with it to whatever degree they care to that’s enjoyable to them, without risking spoilers while doing so.

And "omniscient" 3rd person view I disagree with, since for any realistic discovery system this information would be obtained by either travelling or using probes perpendicular to the ecliptic.

My preferred discovery game design would leave far more mystery than the current FSS, especially compared to FSS cherry picking where there is zero mystery at all - keep jumping until you see the right squiggle, then a rote procedure to locate it. It would also leave more mystery by only providing probabilities (confidence intervals in scientific terms) for various system parameters such as body type, stats and/or kinematics, with fog of war well and truly preserved beyond the top zoom level (orrery).

I really fail to see why so many people defend the current FSS mechanic. Only have to look at the recent FDev livestream to see staff robotically perform the tedious procedure.

I defend it because it suits my play style. It’s capable of providing a lot of information about a body, sufficient to deduce a lot about it, while still preserving the fog of war. It does so because each step required to reveal new information requires direct player input. If I’m in the mood to discover a system solely by parallax, I can do so without worrying about any spoilers. If I want some hints, I can get some hints without revealing the whole shebang.

Ideas and a little imagination for improvement of the procedure is what we need, not defense of mediocre gameplay.

None of my points was aesthetic. You said you couldn't envision a better way that wasn't more "fiddlier", and I gave examples how, using current day technology / UI / UX.

You left out the most important part: “While preserving the fog of war required for discovery gameplay.” The ideas I keep seeing from the anti-FSS group is all about removing that fog of war. I’m fine with them as long as they’re optional, but as a replacement, they inevitably suffer from the same problem the BDS, IDS, and ADS suffered from: too much information for too little effort.

 

[Lance Corrimal]

+1, no comment needed

+1 also.

 

[Enderby]

My motive is far from ulterior.

I think that the FSS is a silly, annoying minigame.

Exploration was one thing I enjoyed in ED. That went out the window with this latest, daft addition to ED's list of dubious updates.

 

[disorganise]

Obviously that last one is the most ADS-like, but has something of a problem if the logic card is still on the table because it means the computer knows both the position and structure of everything but is refusing to put both on the same display until we've twiddled the knobs.

Not necessarily.....i think of it at a ping response.... So we know how far the bodies are away and thus the order (hierarchy is a bit trickier) but not necessarily the direction and thus position.

Having said that..... I personally don't have an issue with bodies being selectable (thus position known). It's still generally faster to ignore the system map/nav panel and resolve the FSS. (versus select, orient ship, go into FSS to resolve).

I know some don't like that as it knowing the computer knows spoils the discovery.... Wouldn't want to take that away, so it should be an toggle. Whether that means a toggle in the options menu, or an actual module, not sure.

 

[Jack Schitt]

My preferred discovery game design would leave far more mystery than the current FSS, especially compared to FSS cherry picking where there is zero mystery at all - keep jumping until you see the right squiggle, then a rote procedure to locate it. It would also leave more mystery by only providing probabilities (confidence intervals in scientific terms) for various system parameters such as body type, stats and/or kinematics, with fog of war well and truly preserved beyond the top zoom level (orrery).

I like the sound of this (or rather I like the look of it, from the mental picture I've derived) but my concern is that I can't work out how long the process would take on a system-by-system basis. If it's significantly faster than the current FSS then it risks being even more of an instant gratification tool than the old ADS, given that the FSS incorporates legacy DSS functions. On the other hand if it's slower, it risks alienating those explorers already accustomed to the speed of the FSS for full-system scans, as well as those players who find exploration tedious and only do it for materials / Engineer unlocks / credits / rank.

I do agree that the slow panning is probably the most tedious aspect of the FSS. That and the chaotic clusters of white chevrons that appear in the target reticle in busy systems. I still haven't figured a reliable way of correlating those with the chevrons on the spectrum. Fortunately I'm pretty damned quick with the "tune and zoom" minigame so it doesn't slow me down too much. Still a lot of panning, though. It's all about the panning.

I like the sound effects though. They remind me of my shortwave radio days.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

No idea, but I know that their motive is clearly not for "Making E: D great again", given their previously held views.

That's right, they just want to make ED worse.

 

[BlackMirror]

FDev have done it this way to simplify the software design. The Zoom level required to find a body is the same as its system hierarchy level. So for example, if it's Body 1 A 2 B, you will need to zoom in 4 times to find that body, even if you're physically right next to it and can eyeball it.

Eh? Just this evening I happened to use the FSS--twice--on moons right in front of me (A 3 B, A 3 D) and only zoomed once on each.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Eh? Just this evening I happened to use the FSS--twice--on moons right in front of me (A 3 B, A 3 D) and only zoomed once on each.

Yup. I don't think Merkir hasn't used it much. Many a time a moon and it's parent have been in the same zoom area and only needed to zoom in once. The same with gas giants, you zoom into gas giant and then you can scan the gas giant and it's moons in the same level. But not all time though. Stars and gas giants can be different and you may need to scan closer.

It's one reason why I don't get bored, it's pretty much a different experience every time. If you get bored of that then flying your ship must be the biggest chore ever, its just so repetitive.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Yup. I don't think Merkir hasn't used it much.

Still continuing the ad hominen attacks i see. Unfortunately I've used it hundreds of times, in beta and live. Lately I look at the squiggles only, since cherry picking means I can avoid the mechanic as much as possible. Found an ELW two nights ago on the way to waypoint 3.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I like the sound of this (or rather I like the look of it, from the mental picture I've derived) but my concern is that I can't work out how long the process would take on a system-by-system basis. If it's significantly faster than the current FSS then it risks being even more of an instant gratification tool than the old ADS, given that the FSS incorporates legacy DSS functions. On the other hand if it's slower, it risks alienating those explorers already accustomed to the speed of the FSS for full-system scans, as well as those players who find exploration tedious and only do it for materials / Engineer unlocks / credits / rank.

I do agree that the slow panning is probably the most tedious aspect of the FSS. That and the chaotic clusters of white chevrons that appear in the target reticle in busy systems. I still haven't figured a reliable way of correlating those with the chevrons on the spectrum. Fortunately I'm pretty damned quick with the "tune and zoom" minigame so it doesn't slow me down too much. Still a lot of panning, though. It's all about the panning.

I like the sound effects though. They remind me of my shortwave radio days.

I wish I had time to sketch an example after-honk orrery filled in with all of the blue blobs, textual "teasers" showing the uncertainty to be uncovered, etc. Would be an interesting academic exercise, at least as a discussion point.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

The other advantage to using an (initially) incomplete orrery view is that the view itself would become a de facto Explorer's Console, like a science lab for explorers, where the commander can choose where they want to prioritise their discovery activities. The incomplete orrery could be revealed in the order the commander wishes, based on their exploration priorities. Even the orbits could be uncertain initially, represented by dashed lines for example, which might expand or contract to their final position after the location probe fired perpendicularly to the orbital plane resolves enough location data.

Edit: And of course the initial orrery view would be entirely self contained, preferably as a semi-transparent overlay (ideally, 3D) to the cockpit view to maintain ship safety. No more panning, until you zoom in to the first zoom level, where the normal FSS mechanic could take over. A reasonable compromise to the current FSS I would have thought.

 

[Sunleader]

I do hate this type of response. It isn't a good look, believe me. I stopped playing a few weeks ago now and I found having invested over five years in this game it was/is quite hard to do. Being taunted like this will not make me warm to your opinions, ever.

The rest of your post is essentially:

"I thought exploration was boring before...and I don't care that you didn't find it boring. The new mechanic means I like exploration now...but I don't care that you don't."

and

"Finding things is great and, in the future, being given more things to find will be great too."

Exploring is not just finding things.

Anyway, I wish you well.

Jon

It doesnt need to look well Mate.
I am just Respecting his Decision.

He said that this Feature being Changed is such a Game Breaker for him that if FD doesnt change it to a Simplified Version again. He will not Play the Game anymore.
Meanwhile I came back a bit ago exactly because FD Finally decided to actually Implement some Gameplay here. And Finally get rid of the boring "Jump and Honk" Mechanic.
And I am not alone with this.

So if he was Sincere in his Statement that we will not Play again unless this Mechanic is Changed.
This effectively means that either he Leaves or I Leave again.
Because me being back is mostly due to the Hope that FD will Continue down the Path they have taken here and Flesh out Gameplay for Exploration.


Also.
Exploration is actually exactly about finding things.
Exploring unknown Terrain serves to find out whats there.
Thing is. Normally Exploration into Unknown Territory would not just be about Aliens and Artifacts.
Much more common stuff like Samples from Materials as well as simple Terrain Anomalies on Planets which tell you something about the Planets Past are usually worthwhile things in such an Expedition which are not currently checked for.

 

[Sunyavadin]

The other advantage to using an (initially) incomplete orrery view is that the view itself would become a de facto Explorers' Console, like a science lab for explorers, where the commander can choose where they want to prioritise their discovery activities. The incomplete orrery could be revealed in the order the commander wishes, based on their exploration priorities. Even the orbits could be uncertain initially, represented by dashed lines for example, which might expand or contract to their final position after the location probe fired perpendicularly to the orbital plane resolves enough location data.

Edit: And of course the initial orrery view would be entirely self contained, preferably as a semi-transparent overlay (ideally, 3D) to the cockpit view to maintain ship safety. No more panning, until you zoom in to the first zoom level, where the normal FSS mechanic could take over. A reasonable compromise to the current FSS I would have thought.

This sounds like a fantastic idea, it'd give me actual reason to engage with the orrery which it's lacking right now.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Still continuing the ad hominen attacks i see. Unfortunately I've used it hundreds of times, in beta and live. Lately I look at the squiggles only, since cherry picking means I can avoid the mechanic as much as possible. Found an ELW two nights ago on the way to waypoint 3.

What ad hominem attacks are you talking about? You decribed something that was factually wrong about the mechanic and I said I think that you haven't used it much to make that mistake. Obviously as I don't know for sure I could be wrong.

There was no attack on anybody from me. At the moment the only attack is from you by accusing me of something I have not done.

After this I have now had enough. I don't want the ADS back in the game. Even if it's an optional module. It was the worst mechanic in ED and I hope it dies forever.

I was perfectly happy for a compromise, but not anymore. I hope you are happy.

 

[Para Handy]

FDev have done it this way to simplify the software design. The Zoom level required to find a body is the same as its system hierarchy level. So for example, if it's Body 1 A 2 B, you will need to zoom in 4 times to find that body, even if you're physically right next to it and can eyeball it.
...

I say old bean - that is abject nonsense dontcherknow.

Seriously, totally not the way it works at all.

I appreciate that some people miss their "pretty picture on honk" - but stick to the truth and don't make up scare stories.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I say old bean - that is abject nonsense dontcherknow.

Seriously, totally not the way it works at all.

I appreciate that some people miss their "pretty picture on honk" - but stick to the truth and don't make up scare stories.

I was actually responding to another person who said it was happening to them, and it also happened to me quite a few times in beta, however I take back the part about being physically close to the body (edited accordingly). When it happened to me it was still at some considerable distance. Personally I don't think it's an issue as it should happen rarely considering proximity automatically discovers the body anyway.

So point taken.

And as to 'some people miss their "pretty picture on honk"', you're looking at the wrong person. I don't want the ADS back, but I respect those that may want it as an optional module.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

What ad hominem attacks are you talking about?

Please don't pretend. You know it would be taken as a personal attack. I've noticed many "discussions" between you and others degrade to personal attacks and grievances. I really do not want to engage with you as you simply repeat the same thing over and over, that the FSS is much better than the ADS (as if it's a redeeming feature to be better than a zero gameplay placeholder), then get all personal about it, and really bring very little original thought.

And now that you've given your pretend ad hominem, and I've responded in kind, we can go our separate ways. Good day.

After this I have now had enough. I don't want the ADS back in the game. Even if it's an optional module. It was the worst mechanic in ED and I hope it dies forever.

I was perfectly happy for a compromise, but not anymore. I hope you are happy.

Yes, the FSS is better than the zero gameplay placeholder. I'll retrieve your dummy now, wash it, and give it back.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Please don't pretend. You know it would be taken as a personal attack.

I did not intend it as an attack on you as there was nothing confrontational about it. But think of it like that if you want to if it makes you feel better.

I've noticed many "discussions" between you and others degrade to personal attacks and grievances.

What personal attacks. Please show them to me as I haven't seen any yet and believe that I haven't done any.

I really do not want to engage with you as you simply repeat the same thing over and over, that the FSS is much better than the ADS (as if it's a redeeming feature to be better than a zero gameplay placeholder), then get all personal about it, and really bring very little original thought.

Then you haven't ready many of my posts then as I have come up with a number of compromises for people who do not like the FSS.

And now that you've given your pretend ad hominem, and I've responded in kind, we can go our separate ways. Good day.

Classy.

Yes, the FSS is better than the zero gameplay placeholder. I'll retrieve your dummy now, wash it, and give it back.

And who is doing the attacking here. No dummy to take out as in fact I have nothing to really be upset about. Its you who doesn't like the FSS and the others that want the ADS back are the ones with the problem. I am just removing my support for you guys. No dummy here, but I suspect you may find one much closer to home.

I have been perfectly reasonable to you Merkir, but you seem to struggle being the same in kind. I have also been very reasonable to others who seem to be unable to be reasonable in kind.

But thats forums for you.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The other advantage to using an (initially) incomplete orrery view is that the view itself would become a de facto Explorers' Console, like a science lab for explorers, where the commander can choose where they want to prioritise their discovery activities. The incomplete orrery could be revealed in the order the commander wishes, based on their exploration priorities. Even the orbits could be uncertain initially, represented by dashed lines for example, which might expand or contract to their final position after the location probe fired perpendicularly to the orbital plane resolves enough location data.

I wouldn't mind this. Depending on implementation it could be good.

Edit: And of course the initial orrery view would be entirely self contained, preferably as a semi-transparent overlay (ideally, 3D) to the cockpit view to maintain ship safety. No more panning, until you zoom in to the first zoom level, where the normal FSS mechanic could take over. A reasonable compromise to the current FSS I would have thought.

This is my biggest issue with the FSS. I would much prefer it to be a holographic pop-up like station services is.