Why hasn't frontier ever responded to killing our SLF NPC's?

With so little opportunity to link yourself to any fluff in the game, I'm completely perplexed that one aspect - the hiring of a NPC pilot with a history and potential for personality and development - is pretty much the only thing that can be completely taken away from you without there being anything you can do about it.

I remember hiring my first NPC. A nobody. They couldn't fly to save themselves. They were nothing but a drain on my coffers. But they were my nobody. My ship got destroyed when I was experiencing a software bug. FDev restored by credits. My pilot was gone forever. I don't care about any of the NPCs anymore. They're just procedurally generated nothings to me now.
 
With so little opportunity to link yourself to any fluff in the game, I'm completely perplexed that one aspect - the hiring of a NPC pilot with a history and potential for personality and development - is pretty much the only thing that can be completely taken away from you without there being anything you can do about it.

I remember hiring my first NPC. A nobody. They couldn't fly to save themselves. They were nothing but a drain on my coffers. But they were my nobody. My ship got destroyed when I was experiencing a software bug. FDev restored by credits. My pilot was gone forever. I don't care about any of the NPCs anymore. They're just procedurally generated nothings to me now.

It is worth noting here that I had a death by bug (Well one of many but anyway) and the devs restored my pilot, complete with the ranking I'd ranked them too, as well as my data and rebuy creds etc
 

rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Hello Commanders!

Just clarify my statement about not wanting Commanders to only ever train one or two fighter crew.

It's absolutely not that we want to force players to continually cycle through new crew (which is why we'll hopefully get around to making a change here), it's because we want to retain jeopardy. If the only risk was some extra credits cost then we think the risk would be too easy to mitigate.

Part of the concept of attachment with crew is knowing that you have kept them alive during situations where you *might* have lost them.

hope this makes some sense.

It does make sense, but it needs to be balanced correctly. At the moment the risk is just too much vs the effort required to train a crew member from Harmless to Elite.
 
the hireling system could be so much more,
with just three easy to implement features (easy as they do not need GFX)


  1. make them "telepresent" into you ship (with them showing up on a seat)
  2. give them roles - engineer, pilot, gunner and let me hire them on any multicrew enabled ship
    • engineers will give assist you with an additional pip, and will use equipped AFMU and Utility scanner
    • gunner will make better use of turrets
      (faster tracking, ammo management)
    • pilot is good for SLF in general,
      and ranks up
  3. you hire them on demand - if you train one up, you can re-hire him again later
 
To echo what has already been stated here...no, it makes no sense to me at all.

Let's take Fire Emblem as an example here. (...)

This is why, when I play any Fire Emblem game, I abuse save/loading to the maximum to make sure every character is alive at the end

Yep, fellow Fire Emblem-er, here. Character death = instant reset. I like that, though. It means losing a character wastes something like 15 mins to 2 hours of my time, and gives me a sense of threat.

For similar reasons, I preferred it when Final Fantasy had the last save point before the dungeon, not before the boss.

Elite gets it about right on rebuy, mission loss and cargo loss, imo, as above.

Yet SLF pilot or Explo Data could waste weeks of time...

To once again reiterate what others have said - the part about 'Part of the concept of attachment with crew is knowing that you have kept them alive during situations where you might have lost them'.

From my perspective that's not fun at all. (...)

Here's a thought experiment - how would people feel if losing a ship and having to use a rebuy removed *all* engineer modifications and set everything back to baseline?

The latter ^^ is of course the point. Particularly as I think I can now make a max-spec fully RNGineered min/maxed PvP ship faster than I can make an Elite SLF pilot.

Still, I would say that usually when Frontier promise revisions, the ultimate outcomes are good, so I am willing to give them some benefit of the doubt here.
 
Hello Commanders!

Just clarify my statement about not wanting Commanders to only ever train one or two fighter crew.

It's absolutely not that we want to force players to continually cycle through new crew (which is why we'll hopefully get around to making a change here), it's because we want to retain jeopardy. If the only risk was some extra credits cost then we think the risk would be too easy to mitigate.

Part of the concept of attachment with crew is knowing that you have kept them alive during situations where you *might* have lost them.

hope this makes some sense.

This doesn't really make much sense. The only cost of death is a rebuy.

You're trying to get us to care more about the death of a crewmember than ourselves, which is a bit silly from a game design perspective.

This mechanic is even more silly when human pilots in multicrew are holograms and also give an extra pip

One week compulsory shore leave and perhaps a rebuy cost similar to their initial purchase cost is all that's needed (and even that might be a bit too much).

And inactive crew members should only take 20% of the usual take at most.
 
Hello Commanders!

Just clarify my statement about not wanting Commanders to only ever train one or two fighter crew.

It's absolutely not that we want to force players to continually cycle through new crew (which is why we'll hopefully get around to making a change here), it's because we want to retain jeopardy. If the only risk was some extra credits cost then we think the risk would be too easy to mitigate.

Part of the concept of attachment with crew is knowing that you have kept them alive during situations where you *might* have lost them.

hope this makes some sense.

Why can't they just be in an escape capsule - so that you have a chance of finding that later - rather than the hammer-blow that a crew death gives to "mah immershun"?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
At the end of the day, NPC pilot mortality simply encourages a hire/fire approach by the player - and if one fires the NPC before cashing in the rewards gained using the NPC does one pay the NPC's percentage to them?
 
I'm sorry, but no, it does not. The current design encourages NEVER using trained crew in potentially dangerous situations (pvp and thargoids primarily). If there's a chance I'll die, I won't use my Elite crew member - the risk isn't worth it. So what you've built is a game where most of the time you hire an expert, use them and fire them. That seems like the anthesis of the system you desire.

The danger can be there without total loss. For example one or more of the following:

  • When your ship explodes, the crew member needs to be rescued, by you. Get a mission to recover their escape pod. Pick it up and return to station.
  • After death, the crew member might be hurt and needing a week or so of recovery time (or a day or hours - balancing vs gameplay issue).
  • You could make it so if you die A LOT with a crew member, they get tired of you and refuse to work for you unless you bump their salary (although I admit, it's already WAY too high).
As it is now, it's illogical and not fun and really ruins the process of leveling a crew member, because once you're done, you just go back to a throwaway Expert pilot.

Yep. Got my crew-member to Elite and rarely took her out after that, due to the risk of my time investment being blown away......which is exactly what happened when I took her along to fight Thargoids in my T10.

I had another crew-member on standby who was Master back then - she's Dangerous now but as things stand, once she gets to Elite, she's grounded and not leaving the lounge.

Something is wrong when you max-out the rating for your SLF crew and then don't use them.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply!

Here's what I'd like to see this system become.

Basics
Crew should be treated (mechanically) in the same way as ships.
Hire as many as you like, assign X to your ship where X is the number of additional seats it has.
If you switch ships, transfer X crew over to the new ship where X is the number of additional seats it has.
Hm, I'd rather have X crew stick with ship X, and ship Y requires another Y crew, especially when the number of seats per ship can (lore-wise) vary widely. Perhaps have a settings option to allow both methods?
The number of seats really isn't an issue. You move over the crew you can fit, which may be 0 if you swap to an eagle etc. I think we ought to be able to take our favourite/best crew member with us, from ship to ship, not have them trapped/locked in just one ship. It also makes far more sense, realism-wise.

If crew stay on shore leave for too long there is a chance they will quit, this chance is based on their rank/ability (higher skilled crew are more likely to seek work elsewhere). They may warn you first, and this ought to give you the chance to transfer them and make them active.
Here I am absolutely *against* this. Many players may have sudden prolonged absences that cannot be helped, and they shouldn't be punished for doing so by having their long-established crew members disappear into the ether on them during their absence. Keep it a *player* choice, please!
Hmm.. yeah, I think I agree. I've had such absenses and it would truly suck to simply "lose" a good crew member for this reason. I was trying to address the issue of retaining crew indefinitely vs how unrealistic that is, but gameplay ought to trump realism every time.

Roles
Crew on a ship can be assigned roles; fighter, turret control (or whatever it's called currently), countermeasures, etc.
I would like this, particularly with counter-measures...I have never liked trying to use an ECM properly. Particularly when it's so much easier and more effective to pack on shield boosters instead (and not so much point defense, sadly.) *Looks over at Sandro meaningfully*
Yeah, it would be awesome to have a crew member you've spent weeks training manning the ECM. The AI would have to mess up, sometimes, but by Elite rank be good enough that a good pilot is happy to have them doing the job.

Crew member(s) assigned to the fighter role (you can assign 1 crew per fighter bay), will be able to launch in a fighter. This is more or less exactly what we have today.
The crew member assigned to the turret control role gives a boost to turret performance based on their rank/advancement
The crew member assigned to the countermeasures role will control your ECM, point defence, etc (not chaff), and their performance will be based on their rank/advancement.

This roles concept can be expanded upon in future updates, adding new roles, and having the crew member rank/advancement add a bonus to whatever they are assigned. This will further differentiate ships which can have crew from those that cannot (ships will need some re-balancing to account for this) as well as differentiating ships with crew vs those with empty seats.
Different ranks in different roles? That sounds pretty neat, to me. To go back to my Fire Emblem comparison, it's like the weapon proficiency levels. Characters that could get S in 3 weapon ranks were the best!
I wasn't actually thinking that they would have different ranks/skill/ability per-role, simply that an Elite ranked crew would add more to whatever role they are assigned than a lower ranked one. But, individual skill levels per-role would be kinda cool, then you could differentiate NPCs to hire based on those initial skill sets and focus/train particular roles on particular NPCs further differentiating them (making them even more individual, and less like random image + single rank).

Risk/Reward
The rewards are clear (above) so what about risk. Losing the crew member is nonsensical (everyone posting so far has given adequate reasoning here) but this is a game so if that was the only complaint we could perhaps live with it, however it's not. The real complaint, IMO, is that the time/CR/etc invested in a crew member are too easily lost and that the penalty is too harsh (perma death tends to be considered harsh, in a game).

So, instead of perma-death, how about if the crew member advancement suffers from ship destruction. In short, all active crew suffer XP loss on "death" (ship destruction). This is a common mechanic in many roleplaying games and it works quite well. A careful pilot's crew will advance slowly, if s/he takes risks they may advance faster, but if the risk proves too much they're destroyed and some advancement is lost.
Ewww, no way!

If we don't lose our Pilot Federation ranks when we die, then neither should our crew. If Sandro is trying to say Elite is supposed to be that punishing, then they need to make it so from the ground up, not just weirdly only apply it to SLF pilots.

For the record I've never played any RPG game where there's XP loss on death, either....
First off, I think you're imagining a much larger XP loss/penalty than I'm proposing, what I'm suggesting is not something anyone ought to describe as "punishing". But, I think Sandro is right in that there has to be some sort of penalty for ship destruction, for the crew. For us, we lose CR in rebuy. I think XP loss is the best option, if you've got a better one I'm all ears. Perhaps you'd prefer if we had to pay a "crew recovery" fee to Search & Rescue and wait X mins? (I'm still annoyed by the ship transfer delays, the community ruined a good thing there).
 
One week compulsory shore leave and perhaps a rebuy cost similar to their initial purchase cost is all that's needed (and even that might be a bit too much).
Or we can dress it up as the "Search & Rescue" cost of retrieving their escape pod. As in, it takes X mins (not a week! please, no, lets not have another pointless timer, lets not ruin another great feature.. I'm lookin at you ship transfer) to retrieve them, and costs some number of credits. Or, make us rescue them ourselves in our own time, at no additional cost.

And inactive crew members should only take 20% of the usual take at most.
+1 here.
 
Thanks for the reply!


The number of seats really isn't an issue. You move over the crew you can fit, which may be 0 if you swap to an eagle etc. I think we ought to be able to take our favourite/best crew member with us, from ship to ship, not have them trapped/locked in just one ship. It also makes far more sense, realism-wise.

It kind of is an issue if you're having to just leave crew members here and there around the inhabited galaxy. Plus, realism-wise, wouldn't crew be better suited to training for a specific vessel and familiarizing themselves with its specific systems instead?

That said the system ought to allow for managing your crew assignments and bringing along a special pal with you everywhere if you like, I suppose.

Hmm.. yeah, I think I agree. I've had such absenses and it would truly suck to simply "lose" a good crew member for this reason. I was trying to address the issue of retaining crew indefinitely vs how unrealistic that is, but gameplay ought to trump realism every time.

Yeah, it would be awesome to have a crew member you've spent weeks training manning the ECM. The AI would have to mess up, sometimes, but by Elite rank be good enough that a good pilot is happy to have them doing the job.

I wasn't actually thinking that they would have different ranks/skill/ability per-role, simply that an Elite ranked crew would add more to whatever role they are assigned than a lower ranked one. But, individual skill levels per-role would be kinda cool, then you could differentiate NPCs to hire based on those initial skill sets and focus/train particular roles on particular NPCs further differentiating them (making them even more individual, and less like random image + single rank).

Exactly!

First off, I think you're imagining a much larger XP loss/penalty than I'm proposing, what I'm suggesting is not something anyone ought to describe as "punishing". But, I think Sandro is right in that there has to be some sort of penalty for ship destruction, for the crew. For us, we lose CR in rebuy. I think XP loss is the best option, if you've got a better one I'm all ears. Perhaps you'd prefer if we had to pay a "crew recovery" fee to Search & Rescue and wait X mins? (I'm still annoyed by the ship transfer delays, the community ruined a good thing there).

Additional CR loss, as we're the 'person in charge' and are responsible & liable for our ships and crew. I do *not* approve of any kind of XP-negation whatsoever - XP is not a currency and should not be treated as such. The cost and time delay of S&R should come naturally by having to fly there and find your crew member on your own dime & time. (Ship transfers should never have been suggested as instant-magic-Pokemon-style-teleport, and the real problem is the prohibitive cost on a supposed quality-of-life feature, one that was never discussed with the community...but I digress.)
 
Last edited:
i forgot to point out in my previous posts - i am absoluetly against the requirement to pick up my crew after ship destruction.
that guy is just a telepresence in my ship anyway, so no need for an escape pod in the first place.
 
Hello Commanders!

I'm fairly sure that I've mentioned this topic on more than one occasion. Oh well, once more, with feeling!

We have some ideas for preventing fighter crew death whilst retaining some form of jeopardy, but we haven't got round to implementing them.

Clearly we don't want a situation where crew can always be saved, this would mean that everyone would only ever hire one or two fighter crew. However, we accept that the current situation is too harsh in terms of investment versus risk. Look for more information in a future update.

Awesome! Glad to hear it won't be a guaranteed mechanic. Hopefully something fun and engaging and adrenaline pumping like a risky escape pod recovery mission. Maybe give it a timer based on the quality of the life support system used on the ship?
 
Hello Commanders!

I'm fairly sure that I've mentioned this topic on more than one occasion. Oh well, once more, with feeling!

We have some ideas for preventing fighter crew death whilst retaining some form of jeopardy, but we haven't got round to implementing them.

Clearly we don't want a situation where crew can always be saved, this would mean that everyone would only ever hire one or two fighter crew. However, we accept that the current situation is too harsh in terms of investment versus risk. Look for more information in a future update.

I know it's just NPC flavor text, but honestly I really like my co-pilot. Maybe just hiring a few crew isn't bad? Just attach costs to retaining them in case of disaster.
 
It is worth noting here that I had a death by bug (Well one of many but anyway) and the devs restored my pilot, complete with the ranking I'd ranked them too, as well as my data and rebuy creds etc

That may be true. I didn't ask to have my pilot restored and it probably would have been if I had. It's not really the point though. My ship could have been destroyed by normal gameplay and it would still suck! If we have permadeath for our characters or no rebuy for ships, I wouldn't mind so much. It's that the rare bit of flavour in the game is removed and yet you get to keep an entirely interchangeable object (your ship) while the little bit of "yours", even if it's just a collection of random words and numbers, gets removed. We don't even have a hall of fame or anything to remember them by. Just gone. This game needs to play on people's nostalgia and yearning for community/connection with people. It doesn't do it at all. It removes the "you as centre of the universe" (which is excellent) but it also removes "you as someone who is doing your thing - trying to achieve something with connection with other things, places and people." That's what needs to be in the game. Other nobodies should know who you are. You should be out in the world with your nobody NPC pilot who you've flow with for ages and has a history, part independent of you and part built on your shared activities.

Anyways...
 
Why hasn't frontier ever responded to killing our SLF NPC's?

Loaded opening question. I'm pretty sure FD have responded in a comment or two or on a livestream to say they are ok with the current implementation.

I presume what you actually mean is why FD haven't said they will change things to the way you want it to be?

Disclaimer: I also don't like how they can die.
 
We have some ideas for preventing fighter crew death whilst retaining some form of jeopardy, but we haven't got round to implementing them.

Clearly we don't want a situation where crew can always be saved, this would mean that everyone would only ever hire one or two fighter crew. However, we accept that the current situation is too harsh in terms of investment versus risk. Look for more information in a future update.

No one wants this.

Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at this decision?
 
No one wants this.

Out of curiosity, how did you arrive at this decision?

Speak for yourself. There have been many requests for Frontier to create a non-guaranteed mechanic for retaining our NPC pilots, including some very detailed YouTube videos. There have been almost as many requests to have our NPCs in the cockpit with us, even if only as non-functional eye candy, and obviously displaced by multicrew players.

Here's one of the better examples:
[video=youtube_share;e7jKJX9OEyU]https://youtu.be/e7jKJX9OEyU[/video]
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom