Why I prefer ED to EVE... (even incomplete)

[Jason S]

This Eve seems about money over game play for the company that runs the game.

So for ED it can go two ways:

1) FD/DB can maximise shorter term income and annoy the fans but bring in a lot of cash in a number of years.
2) FD/DB can honestly try to bring the best game play possible regardless of trying to pull all the cash from the fans in the shorter term and hope the shear briliance of the game will in the longer run which could be decades then make more money and sequals anyway.

Of course we are all hoping for number two.

 

[JeffRyan]

This Eve seems about money over game play for the company that runs the game.

So for ED it can go two ways:

1) FD/DB can maximise shorter term income and annoy the fans but bring in a lot of cash in a number of years.
2) FD/DB can honestly try to bring the best game play possible regardless of trying to pull all the cash from the fans in the shorter term and hope the shear briliance of the game will in the longer run which could be decades then make more money and sequals anyway.

Of course we are all hoping for number two.

We have to respect EVE's success, what 10 years now? And the only MMO that has a continous increase in players rather than a rise and fall off. It's that sandbox effect and the idea that the player CAN make a difference in the world that makes it successful.

 

[PacalB]

Clicking on a target and telling your ship to "go there" or "attack that" and then leaning back and watching the autopilot do all the work is not piloting for me.

I'm one of those types who sell the autopilot (useless piece of trash!) in Frontier and fly everywhere manually. I like to perform the mid-journey turning around and decelerating myself, not just because it gets me to the destination in shorter in-game time, but because I just enjoy it that much, being in complete direct control of my ship.

I don't doubt there's tactics and strategy involved in Eve combat, but you're not actually steering the ship by turning a joystick with your own hands. You're not adjusting to vectors, performing evasive manoeuvres, leading your target. It's not twitch-based. That was what I was getting at.

I understand what you were getting at, first person wise [in the cockpit] and I agree. I also was disappointed all those years ago when I found out Eve to be this. Still my friend, thinking what you do there on Eve combat, it is totally not like that. Combat in Eve is a careful case of micro system management that expands exponentially as you added pilots to your fleets. You needed to learn your ship/ships envelop, weapon capabilities and the enemies likewise. It was/is never just a case of "point and click", that just left you a floating wreck as a free kill.

The part where you say; "You're not adjusting to vectors, performing evasive manoeuvres, leading your target", you were doing exactly that pending what ship class you were in and so much more. Anyway, my time here is not to sell the good points of eve. I see that there was a disconnect in the game being 3rd person/ship and I agree with you on that.

So, that said here is something that I think needs to be thought about when it comes to cockpit fighting of the ED ilk. "Situational awareness", in Eve being about to zoom out, you had the opportunity to overview the field of battle. In a cockpit view you will miss out on a lot of this, and in a multi player universe that loss of overview will be absolutely deadly. Scanners will only go so far. Against NPC's not a problem, players on the other hand are totally different.

So, as some whom flies combat air sims the likes of DCS A10 Warthog and BSM Falcon 4. My question would also be, will we be able to have some kind of virtual cockpit? Will we be able to use things like TrackIR or the future coming Oculus Rift? In cockpit fights the likes of ED, situational awareness and communication will be the key to everything.

Anyone know anything on this? David, mods and of you kind lot?

 

[PacalB]

We have to respect EVE's success, what 10 years now? And the only MMO that has a continous increase in players rather than a rise and fall off. It's that sandbox effect and the idea that the player CAN make a difference in the world that makes it successful.

Agreed, but something needs to be understood, their success is purely down to the fact they filled a "void" in the market at the time back then. I remember the CCP forums when the game was in development, everyone back then "wanted" what is being offered by ED now. It never came, and there was nowhere else to go. Jumpgate came along in 2001 by NetDevil (developer) and 3DO (publisher) it tried, but it tried and failed.

The kickstarter has shown that there is a massive player base still waiting/hoping for the one and only dev who can make this a possibility, DB. The Kickstarter shows we are all still waiting for him and his team to fulfill this dream space sim, we all want to be part of it. This game will go beyond ten years if it even comes close to what First Encounters did.

 

[Jason S]

We have to respect EVE's success, what 10 years now? And the only MMO that has a continous increase in players rather than a rise and fall off. It's that sandbox effect and the idea that the player CAN make a difference in the world that makes it successful.

Well if said players make a manic time commitment and/or regular cash injection. I do not have to respect success on that, sorry you are wrong at least in the way I view success.

 

[Captain N]

I understand what you were getting at, first person wise [in the cockpit] and I agree. I also was disappointed all those years ago when I found out Eve to be this. Still my friend, thinking what you do there on Eve combat, it is totally not like that. Combat in Eve is a careful case of micro system management that expands exponentially as you added pilots to your fleets. You needed to learn your ship/ships envelop, weapon capabilities and the enemies likewise. It was/is never just a case of "point and click", that just left you a floating wreck as a free kill.

Again, like I said, I don't doubt there is strategy and some type of skill involved in it, but it's not the kind of gameplay I expect or want from a game like Elite.

The part where you say; "You're not adjusting to vectors, performing evasive manoeuvres, leading your target", you were doing exactly that pending what ship class you were in and so much more.

Really? I have to admit I didn't play far, just the tutorial during the two-week free trial period, but my experience with the combat was completely opposite. You're not adjusting the ship's vector yourself, you just tell the autopilot to orbit the target and it does all the steering for you. The only thing you get to control is the distance at which you orbit.

"Evasive manoeuvres" may be the name for some mechanic in the game, but I didn't play far enough to see it. It almost certainly isn't what I meant - which is steering your ship manually to physically move it from the way of incoming fire.

You give the firing command yourself, but the firing computer does the aiming for you, so you are not leading your target manually. Whether you hit is determined by a probabilistic formula, not by how good you are at aiming and anticipating the enemy's movements.

So, that said here is something that I think needs to be thought about when it comes to cockpit fighting of the ED ilk. "Situational awareness", in Eve being about to zoom out, you had the opportunity to overview the field of battle. In a cockpit view you will miss out on a lot of this, and in a multi player universe that loss of overview will be absolutely deadly. Scanners will only go so far. Against NPC's not a problem, players on the other hand are totally different.

Situational awareness and understanding three-dimensional space is indeed an important part of skill in flight sim type games. Making it too easy to know what's going on around you is not what I would desire.

 

[Jason S]

Eve is a game of dedication to the point of almost being a 2nd vocation to do well or pumping loads into it. ED should be just an experience we want and perhaps less competitive and less war orientated and less of a time and money drain ?

 

[PacalB]

ED should be just an experience we want and perhaps less competitive and less war orientated and less of a time and money drain ?

Unfortunately MMOG's don't play like that when they are 24/7 up games, its just the way of reality when you step into the MMOG world. The fact that it will have a stand alone mode might be the better way to play it if you like that style of play. Online wise, Space sims will always be about competition and war in some form or other.

 

[PacalB]

Situational awareness and understanding three-dimensional space is indeed an important part of skill in flight sim type games. Making it too easy to know what's going on around you is not what I would desire.

Being able to see 15 enemy targets around you and not just fixed on the forward screen most definitely won't be making it too easy for you.

How many people invested in side, rear or turret guns in the old Elite games? That itself is an extra form of situational awareness. I don't see why it won't be continued here in ED. This is why I ask of something like TrackIR. If you don't know what it is, just YouTube it with A10 in the search and see for yourself.

 

[Captain N]

Unfortunately MMOG's don't play like that when they are 24/7 up games, its just the way of reality when you step into the MMOG world. The fact that it will have a stand alone mode might be the better way to play it if you like that style of play. Online wise, Space sims will always be about competition and war in some form or other.

Now that's just plain false. Most MMO's out there are nowhere near as competitive or pvp-oriented as EVE. EVE is not representative of the majority of MMO's, which follow the theme park, PVE-first philosophy spearheaded by World of Warcraft.

EVE is very atypical in its open encouragement of non-consensual pvp and griefing-type behaviour among its players. I'm not saying this to disparage the game or the people who play it - this is clearly what makes it unique and special amongst the hundreds of WoW clones. It's closer to the original Ultima Online than to the modern, post-WoW sphere of massively multiplayer games.

 

[Captain N]

Being able to see 15 enemy targets around you and not just fixed on the forward screen most definitely won't be making it too easy for you.

The scanner actually does precisely that - showing all the targets fixed on the forward screen. It's basically an overhead third-person view shown alongside the first person main screen.

 

[PacalB]

Now that's just plain false. Most MMO's out there are nowhere near as competitive or pvp-oriented as EVE. EVE is not representative of the majority of MMO's, which follow the theme park, PVE-first philosophy spearheaded by World of Warcraft.

EVE is very atypical in its open encouragement of non-consensual pvp and griefing-type behaviour among its players. I'm not saying this to disparage the game or the people who play it - this is clearly what makes it unique and special amongst the hundreds of WoW clones. It's closer to the original Ultima Online than to the modern, post-WoW sphere of massively multiplayer games.

Come on now, you'll be living in a live dynamic hostile universe not and "message on request" do you want to PvP request world? MMOG space sim games tend to be different from your typical WoW type PvP/PvE server type games. You've seen the promo-vids here, I don't see a hint of "do you want to PvP?" part coming first. You either opt in or opt out no?

 

[Captain N]

Come on now, you'll be living in a live dynamic hostile universe not and "message on request" do you want to PvP request world? MMOG space sim games tend to be different from your typical WoW type PvP/PvE server type games. You've seen the promo-vids here, I don't see a hint of "do you want to PvP?" part coming first. You either opt in or opt out no?

No, I want there to be non-consensual PVP.

But it's not the norm in MMO's, not even remotely.

 

[PacalB]

But it's not the norm in MMO's, not even remotely.

That is purely dependent on what kind of servers you choose to join up too. MMOGS all have PvP servers or the options to opt in but they totally loose their immersion in the process of doing so.

 

[1stBiker]

If I find expliots, I'll used them until I'm caught by the devs, I'll hold my hands up and say; "Hey, you caught me, not my fault, you need to fix your game."[/I]

Thats a very competent post, thanks for that.


I've played Eve for one year after it has been released.
What I didnt liked was this swamp of infos and the difficulties to watch through, especially as a non native-Engl. speaking person.

3 further reasons why I stopped playing it - and I hope we wont see the same in ED:

1) I sometimes couldnt go for a **** when mining in the fields
2) only 3rd person view, no cockpit
3) that is in regards to the Quote above 'while I wasnt aware of any exploits in Eve, I felt to be a victim of game-changes terminating things which were used from others for a long time while I just realized it to use that method myself' - apart of that there were some other changes which I just didnt like because they were not finetuning-stile but very hard changes

However - I only played Eve because there was no Elite
<<<1stBiker

 

[PacalB]

1) I sometimes couldnt go for a **** when mining in the fields
2) only 3rd person view, no cockpit
3) that is in regards to the Quote above 'while I wasnt aware of any exploits in

Eve, I felt to be a victim of game-changes terminating things which were used from others for a long time while I just realized it to use that method myself' - apart of that there were some other changes which I just didnt like because they were not finetuning-stile but very hard changes

However - I only played Eve because there was no Elite
<<<1stBiker

1. This is true, those kinds of things did tend to happen at the most inappropriate times, i.e. being when you were in a toilet! Still, having a good defensive crew with you and having your ship aligned to warp out made all the difference to life, death and keeping your cargo.

2. Yes, the 3rd person ship view was a kick in the teeth when we all found out about that little detail from the devs. A lot of people just dropped following the game and left. Still, many stayed [like myself] and ended up staying for some 10 years. lol

3. There were many many over the years, professional meta-gamers tend to find holes like that and abuse them for their own needs until caught. That's the way MMOG's are if they are not kept on top of. The Goons for example, found an exploit and messed with Eves factional warfare system when it was changed after one of the major updates.

They ended up with billions of isk [in game money] and filtered it off to multiple alt accounts before they were caught and slapped across the wrists. Of course the isk was still out there and ended up funding their war projects out in null sec space. The CCP basically just hid under a rock until the **** storm died down.

Mutli-player indeed brings it's own set of problems.

 

[Zuikaku]

The main problem of EVE is that it's not Elite

1. Third person view just sucks
2. You are not actually piloting the ship, you are just giving the order. But there is no any crew or any "feel" that you are actually on the ship
3. Damage model is awful! Hitpoints are good for bad RTS but very bad for space simulation
4. Planets and space bodies are hardly anything more than background wallpapers. You can not land at them, can not fight into the stratosphere - they are just sterile, cold... they totally miss any "mood"...
5. Whole space totally miss any mood... it's just background for events, not an event maker...
6. Mining is extremely boring, but there are actually many people who don't like miners being AFK :S
7. Game economy is very strange. You can buy heavy machinery in industrial world, go to the frontier system 10 jumps away only to find that heavy machinery is much cheaper there.... :S the good thing is you have lots of trading goods (hope ED will have more), the bad thing is you can not make profit selling them.
8. Jumpgates... just hate the idea of oversized doors with huge pillars floating arround the space....
9. Inter system warp jumps just make all systems the same. I never even bothered too check the position of the planets, their distances because it just doesnt matter at all - you can reach every point in the system in few second time - a major game and mood breaker
10. No fuel. No fuel!! No fuel?! Come on, what are those oversized engines spiting in those jet trails??! And you call it a SF game?!?!
11. Many players have "issues" ... you know... jumping into the system, destroying all the (rookie) miners and merchants and then escaping. They even make religion of that, they have their corporations. Their only fun is griefing and yet, CCP does nothing about that....
12. You can just sit and train your skills without actually doing anyting....
13. Pay to win, pay to win, pay to win....

 

[Davidtq]

Ive played Eve for a few years now, and will probably continue to do so, but for me its the lack of joystick action that lets it down in a major way...

 

[psykokow]

but for me its the lack of joystick action that lets it down in a major way...

Just WOW.... LOL I can't top that..

 

[Majere]

10 print "elite dangerous is not a mmog" 20 goto 10

Round and around and around we go.

I posted in another thread, DB said that Elite Dangerous is not an MMOG so we can all relax.

I have never played EVE and very pleased about it. It seems incredibly dull.
This is a personal thing but I have something called a 'life' and games only feature in a tiny part of it.

Anything that requires that amount of commitment ain't gonna happen. Yes I did play the original Elite for hours on end - I was 13 years old. Looking at the ages that people admitted to - seems like I am in the largest demographic.

By the way, I checked out a review of EVE and fell about laughing...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online