Why is being a "prey" of a pirate in open a bad game design...

[Tividar]

Fair bit to unpack here, so here it goes:

• A pirate ship is not what I would call a PvP loadout, due to the modules required to make piracy work (specific weapons, cargo, limpets, scanners, etc.). If someone shows up in their meta FdL/Chief/Krait murderboat I'll make sure I get out of dodge ASAP
• Finally, appreciate not throwing gankers and pirates into the same bucket - by and large they're mutually exclusive groups of people. Also, namecalling isn't necessary and just devalues your post.

I struggle with how to timely identify a CMDR "Pirate" vs. a CMDR Murderhobo... Their ships look awful similar from the outside.

 

[Thwarptide]

Combat? I would forget it. If your enemy is in a pvp build, and you are in a mining build, you are not gonna win

I completly get the entire logic of the original post.
If you want to enjoy open play casually with friends without having to worry so much about about being bothered I have a bit of a Tactical idea for you that you may wish to replicate and refine.
About 10 years ago I played a really good game (not as good as as ED. But it ranks in my #2 spot) called Eve Online. It is a subscription based game (expensive). It was all open play. Like the ED bubble, systems had security levels. Pretty close to the same ways of making money short of exploration in one and short of being able to build weapons and ships in the other.
Mining mining in high security systems pretty much meant if someone even tried to you, far superior security forces would be on em in less than 5 seconds and turn em into KABOOM! However, the resources and monetary awards available in high sec systems were not very lucrative. For that you needed to go to the lower sec systems or those with none at all. The caveat was there were ships solely designed for mining. More efficient than say a battle cruiser. However a devoted mining ship had, little in the way of defense.
My squad members invented a way to deal with it. While a couple of us mined we had 4 others in a belt not far away, but they could be on us in 5 seconds. We were always successful in deterring greifers.
There were also other players who's sole purpose was to bait and grief the greifers. I thought these guys were brilliant. They'd set up a mining ship with a tank from hell. Load mega weapons in place of mining beams and attach a tractor beam to hold em still. It was always a huge surprise when they struck a griefer. Kaboom! (how the heck did that happen?).

In ED there really isn't a ship designed and wholey dedicated to mining. This is a plus in ED.
Grab 3 or 4 pals. (numbers optional by need) have ve each put one mining laser on the ship or none at. But have at least one ship actively mining. The rest should have some material in the hold (for scanning appearance sake). From here you have a great idea of setting up a trap.

Have fun greifing greifers (or npcs)
07

 

[Alsteif]

I completly get the entire logic of the original post.
If you want to enjoy open play casually with friends without having to worry so much about about being bothered I have a bit of a Tactical idea for you that you may wish to replicate and refine.
About 10 years ago I played a really good game (not as good as as ED. But it ranks in my #2 spot) called Eve Online. It is a subscription based game (expensive). It was all open play. Like the ED bubble, systems had security levels. Pretty close to the same ways of making money short of exploration in one and short of being able to build weapons and ships in the other.
Mining mining in high security systems pretty much meant if someone even tried to you, far superior security forces would be on em in less than 5 seconds and turn em into KABOOM! However, the resources and monetary awards available in high sec systems were not very lucrative. For that you needed to go to the lower sec systems or those with none at all. The caveat was there were ships solely designed for mining. More efficient than say a battle cruiser. However a devoted mining ship had, little in the way of defense.
My squad members invented a way to deal with it. While a couple of us mined we had 4 others in a belt not far away, but they could be on us in 5 seconds. We were always successful in deterring greifers.
There were also other players who's sole purpose was to bait and grief the greifers. I thought these guys were brilliant. They'd set up a mining ship with a tank from hell. Load mega weapons in place of mining beams and attach a tractor beam to hold em still. It was always a huge surprise when they struck a griefer. Kaboom! (how the heck did that happen?).

In ED there really isn't a ship designed and wholey dedicated to mining. This is a plus in ED.
Grab 3 or 4 pals. (numbers optional by need) have ve each put one mining laser on the ship or none at. But have at least one ship actively mining. The rest should have some material in the hold (for scanning appearance sake). From here you have a great idea of setting up a trap.

Have fun greifing greifers (or npcs)
07

Well, tbh? Griefers are not even a reason i wrote all of that.
The fact, that a pirate will aproach me is not a problem.
The fact that i will die, is not a problem either.
The idea about being a prey for the sake of being a prey, is. And of not gaining anything for taking the risk, which is optional (since you can go solo).
But then you have players, who will keep telling you that open is the only way to play! Or that they can't be pirates without prey!

Your idea is not bad, and yes. I still remember my firstt ventures out into the nulsec to mine and die from stealthed ships ready to deliver rockets to my doors. The sheer ... fear, that this blip on my scan is an enemy,just waiting to kill me. My first voyage to mine was so stresfull, but it was fun. Since in nulsec, there was a reward waiting for me! Were i to survive, i would return with a hefty amount of isk. And it was fun.
In Elite... no. You do that if you enjoy it (which is fine, of course), but that's it.
And that's all, really.

 

[Thwarptide]

Well, tbh? Griefers are not even a reason i wrote all of that.
The fact, that a pirate will aproach me is not a problem.
The fact that i will die, is not a problem either.
The idea about being a prey for the sake of being a prey, is. And of not gaining anything for taking the risk, which is optional (since you can go solo).
But then you have players, who will keep telling you that open is the only way to play! Or that they can't be pirates without prey!

Your idea is not bad, and yes. I still remember my firstt ventures out into the nulsec to mine and die from stealthed ships ready to deliver rockets to my doors. The sheer ... fear, that this blip on my scan is an enemy,just waiting to kill me. My first voyage to mine was so stresfull, but it was fun. Since in nulsec, there was a reward waiting for me! Were i to survive, i would return with a hefty amount of isk. And it was fun.
In Elite... no. You do that if you enjoy it (which is fine, of course), but that's it.
And that's all, really.

No sir, Cmdr, I wasn't suggesting that greifers were part of the problem (nor did you imply that). I was merely suggesting ways of a deeper emerging into the game experience. It wasn't solely directed at you. My apologies if you took it that way (please don't blow me up).
If I could justify the cost of a PSN subscription and I wasn't deaf, I'd band up with players and spring traps for the pleasure of breaking greifers of the habit.
07

 

[Alsteif]

No sir, Cmdr, I wasn't suggesting that greifers were part of the problem (nor did you imply that). I was merely suggesting ways of a deeper emerging into the game experience. It wasn't solely directed at you. My apologies if you took it that way (please don't blow me up).
If I could justify the cost of a PSN subscription and I wasn't deaf, I'd band up with players and spring traps for the pleasure of breaking greifers of the habit.
07

Then sorry for misunderstanding that ^ ^.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Nail on head there op...why indeed. It wouldn't be so bad if there was a proper "pirate/criminal" career path with a well thought out crime and punishment system that made sense within the game lore/logic. With proper repurcussions for the pirates and criminal. But we have a game where you can be allied with the Fed and the Empire soooooooo....shrugs.

I actually dream of the devs doing something like this. Like, once you start down a path of crime, piracy, murder, ect. you are no longer welcome in lawful systems and stations. Then we could have our own Shinrarta, a pirates cove if you will, filled with scum and villainy. Oh I want it so bad!

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

And that's the thing. There is nothing making me feel, that i should agree to that kind of gameplay. I don't have to take up this challenge. SInce it's not really necessary, and winning doesn't give me anything.
If i loose, i give up my ship or my cargo. And if i win? Nothing.

If you win, you get to sell all your diamonds if you lose, you don't.

 

[SamSlade]

Alsteif said: And that's the thing. There is nothing making me feel, that i should agree to that kind of gameplay. I don't have to take up this challenge. SInce it's not really necessary, and winning doesn't give me anything.
If i loose, i give up my ship or my cargo. And if i win? Nothing.


Then why are you here? Your post seems to have no point other then 'Do not play in Open'; fine... don't, but also don't make inane posts about Open being bad unless you've got a point or a suggestion. Everyone knows a minority sub-set of the community hates open, because it's constantly spouted here, but none of these noisy few ever seem to have solutions in mind. There's more then enough empty vessels making noise here, stop adding to it.

 

[Kelster87]

Well, tbh? Griefers are not even a reason i wrote all of that.
The fact, that a pirate will aproach me is not a problem.
The fact that i will die, is not a problem either.
The idea about being a prey for the sake of being a prey, is. And of not gaining anything for taking the risk, which is optional (since you can go solo).
But then you have players, who will keep telling you that open is the only way to play! Or that they can't be pirates without prey!

Stop fixating on the 'being prey' part.. In the 1000 or so hours I've spent playing in Open, I've had 1 run in with a ganker.. 1. Legit pirates? 3 or 4. All except 1 I gave up cargo for, that one got 'sploded. Piracy isn't my thing, but I can understand others do it and that Piracy is part of the Elite universe. I did CG's while they existed and will answer most calls for help I come across in the forums, if the cause seems fair. I accept that playing in open allows for the (incredibly slim) chance that I might run in to another player. But then, I don't fly around in a plastic spaceship with a paper hull. I have shields and the ability to run away if needed.

Your idea is not bad, and yes. I still remember my firstt ventures out into the nulsec to mine and die from stealthed ships ready to deliver rockets to my doors. The sheer ... fear, that this blip on my scan is an enemy,just waiting to kill me. My first voyage to mine was so stresfull, but it was fun. Since in nulsec, there was a reward waiting for me! Were i to survive, i would return with a hefty amount of isk. And it was fun.
In Elite... no. You do that if you enjoy it (which is fine, of course), but that's it.
And that's all, really.

To be honest, now I'm kinda confused. Is it all Piracy you hate, NPC and Players, or just the players who are Pirates? If it's just the players, it sounds more like bruised ego than an attempt to improve the game.

 

[MadSinUN]

In solo and pg, you are prey for NPCs, right? Can then NPC pirates also exclude? We will exclude military NPCs. For the military you are also sometimes prey and the police must also be removed))))

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I struggle with how to timely identify a CMDR "Pirate" vs. a CMDR Murderhobo... Their ships look awful similar from the outside.

I got into the habit of scanning other ships, particularly player ones, as soon as they come within range, and check out their module loadout.

Some ships are clearly not very useable for piracy - FdL, Mamba, to some extent the Chieftan, the Vulture (never see any gankers in one though). Those can almost always considered non-pirates as they lack the internal slots to make piracy viable. Others (Kraits, Conda, Cutter, etc.) are not as clear cut, hence the above scanning habit becomes vital.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

An in game reason for piracy to work would be great. But as long as its easier for People to play in solo/PG, i think they would still do it. Unless you add something special to open-play.
Of course, player-to-player interactions could bring some to open, possibly. They dont do that now tho.

An in game reason could be there with some re-balancing of trade routes according to security level and other economic factors i.e. if an anrchy system has high demand for a resource, it should be willing to pay a LOT as the traders have to take extra risk. On the other hand the trader will make a large profit compared to the 'normal' trade routes in higher security systems. This would also require a) beefing up security in the high sec systems so that a pirate would not have enough time to rob, and b) higher bouties on pirates that manage to kill the victim.

 

[Morbad]

I got into the habit of scanning other ships, particularly player ones, as soon as they come within range, and check out their module loadout.

Some ships are clearly not very useable for piracy - FdL, Mamba, to some extent the Chieftan, the Vulture (never see any gankers in one though). Those can almost always considered non-pirates as they lack the internal slots to make piracy viable. Others (Kraits, Conda, Cutter, etc.) are not as clear cut, hence the above scanning habit becomes vital.

There are pirate wings that have one ship for doing the actual piracy and two or three pure combat ships for fending off hostile CMDRs and minimizing the chance prey has of successfully resisting or escaping.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

There are pirate wings that have one ship for doing the actual piracy and two or three pure combat ships for fending off hostile CMDRs and minimizing the chance prey has of successfully resisting or escaping.

That's true - my comment was limited to single ship encounters (likewise, a wing of 4 FdLs are a reasonable indicator you're not dealing with pirates).

 

[Tividar]

I got into the habit of scanning other ships, particularly player ones, as soon as they come within range, and check out their module loadout.

Some ships are clearly not very useable for piracy - FdL, Mamba, to some extent the Chieftan, the Vulture (never see any gankers in one though). Those can almost always considered non-pirates as they lack the internal slots to make piracy viable. Others (Kraits, Conda, Cutter, etc.) are not as clear cut, hence the above scanning habit becomes vital.

Appreciate the feedback. I've seen about half a dozen CMDR interdiction in the last twelve months. One was a pirate that left before I could respond (I had no cargo). The others were of the other sort...

 

[smiths121]

Why are people so against paying pirates?

I restarted a session mining near a hotspot in the bubble. Random number generator spawned a pirate, and no law enforcement. Pirate asked for 6 tons of LTD and started shooting. Paid the pirate the 6 tons, carried on mining. If the demand had been the same from a player, I would have done the same thing. Running awau in a belt, is higher risk than paying a low demand for cargo, with mining you keep your spot!

Just wondering, those that would not pay a PC pirate, do you respond the same way "over my dead body" to NPC pirates?

I agree with the post above, its hard to tell Player murdo-hobo from pirate. Normnally you know you have a problem when they get behind you. Unless you turn to face and get a scan in, first you know is in normal space after the interdiction. The trick is being able to look at loadout. NPCs make things obvious as they give you a clue in chat. Some players do this as well.

Simon

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Why are people so against paying pirates?

I restarted a session mining near a hotspot in the bubble. Random number generator spawned a pirate, and no law enforcement. Pirate asked for 6 tons of LTD and started shooting. Paid the pirate the 6 tons, carried on mining. If the demand had been the same from a player, I would have done the same thing. Running awau in a belt, is higher risk than paying a low demand for cargo, with mining you keep your spot!

Just wondering, those that would not pay a PC pirate, do you respond the same way "over my dead body" to NPC pirates?

I agree with the post above, its hard to tell Player murdo-hobo from pirate. Normnally you know you have a problem when they get behind you. Unless you turn to face and get a scan in, first you know is in normal space after the interdiction. The trick is being able to look at loadout. NPCs make things obvious as they give you a clue in chat. Some players do this as well.

Simon

I suppose having lived in ShinDez (as my home base of operations running missions in various PvE builds) I've become paranoid enough that I assume that hollow square = hostile until proven otherwise. If I'm in SC I overshoot my target and turn around, come to a stop/slow down and get my scan in. Better be safe than sorry and it doesn't really take that long either. You can also tell if they're after you if you follow their direction of travel. There's quite a lot of information that's not explicitly given by the game that can be used to judge the situation.

 

[Alsteif]

Why are people so against paying pirates?

I restarted a session mining near a hotspot in the bubble. Random number generator spawned a pirate, and no law enforcement. Pirate asked for 6 tons of LTD and started shooting. Paid the pirate the 6 tons, carried on mining. If the demand had been the same from a player, I would have done the same thing. Running awau in a belt, is higher risk than paying a low demand for cargo, with mining you keep your spot!

Just wondering, those that would not pay a PC pirate, do you respond the same way "over my dead body" to NPC pirates?

I agree with the post above, its hard to tell Player murdo-hobo from pirate. Normnally you know you have a problem when they get behind you. Unless you turn to face and get a scan in, first you know is in normal space after the interdiction. The trick is being able to look at loadout. NPCs make things obvious as they give you a clue in chat. Some players do this as well.

Simon

As someone said before, it's almost like liking playing being bullied xd.
Also - yes, over my dead body will i give up my hard work! Hahahahhaha.

 

[Tividar]

NPC Pirates act like pirates, and I treat them as such. If I'm armed I tend to start shooting the moment they approach and scan. If I'm not armed (or they obviously out-gun me) I usually pay them off as its less time and no impact on my bottom line to mine a few extra tons of cargo. Unknown CMDRs aren't nearly as predictable. I've seen a lot of posts about how most CMDRs encountered in this situation are "pirates." My experience has been they're almost always Murderhobos uninterested in cargo.

IF "pirate" CMDRs followed actual pirate behavior patterns, I'd tolerate them (and the game should encourage pirates to behave like pirates). In practice, they're more like Firefly reavers.

This evening I'll be picking up some newly available Prismatics. I'm curious to see how a "pirate" CMDR responds to a 20k-30k shield.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

This evening I'll be picking up some newly available Prismatics. I'm curious to see how a "pirate" CMDR responds to a 20k-30k shield.

A strong shield's weak point is its integrity.