Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis

[frostypaw]

Until they add voxels to their engine and allow crafting that doesn't involve grinding and the ability to actually build things I can't see even atmospheric landing really fixing anything. It will add to immersion and it'll be just like the rest of the game "a novely" eye candy and cool for the first couple days. Then the repetition and lack of depth will settle in.

Is that because voxels are going to revolutionise everything about the way we play games? (c) Commanche 1992

What really upset me about Peggle was the repetition and lack of depth, that game will never succeed. Not a good measuring stick if others enjoy it - too subjective. The PC forum is a super-whine fest compared to the Xbox world, this might just be a few folk and not the pandemic you believe..... keep track of who posts what.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

Yes. Elite is an open world game (not sandbox) where you make your own choices... to a degree. And you're correct. You can't always please everyone. There are always going to be people who find different activities interesting for whatever reason.

I don't study game design, but I've read and listened to a fair bit. It's interesting that normally when a certain model is put forward, the wording is never "nobody will find this fun" or "everyone will find this fun". There are always going to be variances. But it often comes down to something like, "Doing this has tended to make a significant number of players feel negatively about... whatever." It seems to be more about avoiding known pitfalls than hitting a guaranteed sweet spot.

I think one of the huge problems with The Engineers (just talking about the mods here) is the way it was presented, or "sold". The mods were hinted at and teased and the community, from what I could see, was really keen to get their hands on the mods and start playing. What they didn't expect was the number of hoops they had to jump through to get there. And then, of course, the potential of not actually getting any benefit after jumping through those hoops.



I would have thought this about some things too. But then I started reading some of the dev comments and watched video feeds. This scares me a little. It seems to me that they developed exactly the system they wanted. That they genuinely thought that this was a good idea (presumably for the enjoyment of players).


I should also point out that the term "devs" is thrown around a lot. I do realise that the majority of developers likely have very little input into what is actually being delivered. A developer's job is often just to implement the design provided to them in the best way possible. It's entirely possible that the dev who wrote the code behind that RNG wheel thought it wasn't a great idea too. Of course... I could be wrong.

The old "You can't please everyone" is a cognitive dissonance that is used to dismiss people and continue doing what you are doing. Its rubbish. YOU CAN please the majority of people. PLENTY of games out there have proven it time and time again. So they really need (Sandro) to stop using that as an excuse.

IE "I want to please everyone... but it looks like I can't please everyone. Therefore I don't want to please everyone I'm going to keep doing what I want."abc

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Is that because voxels are going to revolutionise everything about the way we play games? (c) Commanche 1992

What really upset me about Peggle was the repetition and lack of depth, that game will never succeed. Not a good measuring stick if others enjoy it - too subjective. The PC forum is a super-whine fest compared to the Xbox world, this might just be a few folk and not the pandemic you believe..... keep track of who posts what.

No dude have you even played games like Planet Explorers, 7 Days to Die, Everquest Landmark, MINECRAFT? Space Engineers etc etc..

Its allowing each meter of space to be modified and shaped into what you want. Heck even all the space games coming out now have voxel asteroids that can be blasted apart.

 

[frostypaw]

No dude have you even played games like Planet Explorers, 7 Days to Die, Everquest Landmark, MINECRAFT? Space Engineers etc etc..

Its allowing each meter of space to be modified and shaped into what you want. Heck even all the space games coming out now have voxel asteroids that can be blasted apart.

Yah I know such things exist, and I do know what voxels are that's why everybody got so wet about voxels in 1992.

Now here we are in 2016 and the big names you've got to show how essential it is are a few alphas and the world-lego game most of which focus on micro-management and tiny detail world-bound stuff - and they don't all review terribly well..... this is a space game.

Any focus on voxels seems far from a guaranteed win.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

Yah I know such things exist, and I do know what voxels are that's why everybody got so wet about voxels in 1992.

Now here we are in 2016 and the big names you've got to show how essential it is are a few alphas and the world-lego game most of which focus on micro-management and tiny detail world-bound stuff - and they don't all review terribly well..... this is a space game.

Any focus on voxels seems far from a guaranteed win.

They don't review well? What? 7dtd, space engineers, planet explorers, no mans sky all are not done yet. Minecraft is released and yes massively good reviews and what BILLIONS of dollars later .. yeah thats failure. Minecraft was released way too early but it still made a crap load of money and success.

You don't need to micro manage every block but if you want to.. you can.

This is a sandbox - but you can't even build anything. Focusing on Voxel tech in asteroids first could make that profession more fun and realistic so that every rock isn't static.

Then imagine purchasing a plot of land you are allowed to modify on a moon / world. Within that plot you could modify the terrain and insert objects such as landing pads, habitats etc. Make your own base with your own hangar and storage. You don't think there is an appeal for that??

 

[frostypaw]

This is a sandbox - but you can't even build anything. Focusing on Voxel tech in asteroids first could make that profession more fun and realistic so that every rock isn't static.

Then imagine purchasing a plot of land you are allowed to modify on a moon / world. Within that plot you could modify the terrain and insert objects such as landing pads, habitats etc. Make your own base with your own hangar and storage. You don't think there is an appeal for that??

Apparently building stuff is not in the majority of people's definition of a sandbox game, go check.... surprised me tbh.

That would be a minor nice addition to mining, but I think misses the sheer tonnage of such asteroids compared to the forces being applied to them - short of smashing a corvette into one at ramming speed you're unlikely to make them care at all.

And I'm sure there is an appeal - but critical considering the development time required to rebuild the entire planet generation/LOD/collision detection/texturing models etc to a voxel system and then the time required to work out the mechanics of persistence (can others interact with your base?) and security (can others nuke your base and all your ships while you're on holiday?) are a vast undertaking

More landables, scoopable gas giants, chained missions and career mode options first please - I'm totally more here to be a space pilot than a homemaker, and with it being a game sold on the basis of being a space pilot I'd wager that the majority would prefer the focus on that

edit> oh and yes minecraft did well, but entirely different game - the others.... not out or questionable

 

[Khelder]

They don't review well? What? 7dtd, space engineers, planet explorers, no mans sky all are not done yet. Minecraft is released and yes massively good reviews and what BILLIONS of dollars later .. yeah thats failure. Minecraft was released way too early but it still made a crap load of money and success.

You don't need to micro manage every block but if you want to.. you can.

This is a sandbox - but you can't even build anything. Focusing on Voxel tech in asteroids first could make that profession more fun and realistic so that every rock isn't static.

Then imagine purchasing a plot of land you are allowed to modify on a moon / world. Within that plot you could modify the terrain and insert objects such as landing pads, habitats etc. Make your own base with your own hangar and storage. You don't think there is an appeal for that??

Remember, "open world" not "sandbox".

The only game I've played on the list is Minecraft. I've had a lot of fun with that. Set up a couple of server instances for myself and the kids to play in (with respect for what each other build). Would I ever play Minecraft in a true multiplayer server? Pass. For the same reasons that make Open a challenge at times (PvP vs PwP), you just can't guarantee what other players will do.

I'm sure the idea would appeal to many players. But let's face it. The majority of uses will be drilling holes straight through things, or writing your name, or some NSFW image. It's just what happens. I'd pass on that.

The other, even bigger problem is implementation. The only reason we have the galaxy to the scope it is now is procedural generation. As soon as you start to deviate from that and require persistent changes, you're talking about a lot (a real lot) of data. It just isn't feasible.

 

[Insomnia]

Go watch ANY video about No Man's Sky and listen to it and their slack jawed amazement at things we've had for over a year:

"OMG Are you serious????!?!? I can fly to any one of those stars?"

"OMG are you serious that's incredible - can I just fly down to that planet?!?"

"OMG are you serious - look at this galaxy map it's incredible!!!!! Does it have real stars in it? Can I visit Orion?"

If you think Elite's reached it's true market penetration you are sorely sorely mistaken.

IMHO they need to get atmospherics and chained missions down pat for Season 3 and do a a relaunch with some serious advertising spend. There are a billion potential customers out there

I know right! A guy at work was completely overwhelmed by the fact that you could actually explore the ENTIRE UNIVERSE in NMS, and that planets rotated around its parent star, plus you could actually land on every planet to explore!
I tried to tell him that Elite Dangerous has been out for a year or more, but he had no idea what it was. Kinda frustrating tbh.
See, ED is still niche, probably due to its sim-like approach, and I think ED has reached much of its market due to this, unfortunately. So having atmospherics probably won't reach millions of new customers at all. Besides, a lot of ED relies on its heritage.

 

[frostypaw]

I know right! A guy at work was completely overwhelmed by the fact that you could actually explore the ENTIRE UNIVERSE in NMS, and that planets rotated around its parent star, plus you could actually land on every planet to explore!
I tried to tell him that Elite Dangerous has been out for a year or more, but he had no idea what it was. Kinda frustrating tbh.
See, ED is still niche, probably due to its sim-like approach, and I think ED has reached much of its market due to this, unfortunately. So having atmospherics probably won't reach millions of new customers at all. Besides, a lot of ED relies on its heritage.

The first two bits are becoming a daily cringe

I don't think it's as niche as it's ended up - I think the lack of challenge really did put a lot of people off and it never had a big publicity campaign, rather broadsided by other campaigns that didn't even use their real game in the process. The collective jaw-dropping at the procedural galaxy of NMS has been matched by the number of people wanting to do all the things Elite is designed around - these people just haven't seen it, or haven't connected with it....

Atmospherics won't be an ultra-gamechanger in themselves, but it will mean a more level playing field feature-wise as far as what the general currently uninformed/uninterested public see I think - the idea of flying down to lush valleys and oceans is very appealing to a lot of people and when you look at what it can be like..... gotta admit this would sell more copies
[video=youtube;V2Teqt1Fz8A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Teqt1Fz8A[/video]

 

[Alpha087]

No conspiracy. Human nature. People who are nice to them will be welcomed embraced, their ideas taken and they'll be propped up - and people who are vocal critics like me are watched like hawks for any slip up and then I'm gone. (yeah I got a long list of infractions people waiiit for me to slip up) I'm not the only one. I know a dozen people like it.

They've outright said they want all feedback positive and negative (Sandro a dozen times) but then continue to disregard and dismiss it and penalize people who are trying to sway it in the right direction. Not a conspiracy. Its a fact. They do listen though I can give you that. They definitely do read and if its within their power to do immediately they've done a great job of fixing things.

The issue is in the design stages.

I do recall in the Beta discussion, someone pointed out a lot of the big problems with Engineers and how grinding for Engineer ranks was just not fun/good game design. A developer actually posted in that thread and really went off on the guy, only to later apologize for having been unable to take the criticism. There was also a similar incident on Twitter with one of the developers regarding the "new" AI difficulty.

 

[Derath]

I do recall in the Beta discussion, someone pointed out a lot of the big problems with Engineers and how grinding for Engineer ranks was just not fun/good game design. A developer actually posted in that thread and really went off on the guy, only to later apologize for having been unable to take the criticism. There was also a similar incident on Twitter with one of the developers regarding the "new" AI difficulty.

Plenty of people pointed out the grind was bad design with plenty of focus on the RNG too, but the developer that posted was right to give that guy the smack-down it was about the worst post i've ever seen on the forums , ideally i'd have preferred the moderators banning him and deleting the post as it was a waste of a dev response to even be in that thread but the context is completely different between us commenting about the grind and that particular thread.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

I do recall in the Beta discussion, someone pointed out a lot of the big problems with Engineers and how grinding for Engineer ranks was just not fun/good game design. A developer actually posted in that thread and really went off on the guy, only to later apologize for having been unable to take the criticism. There was also a similar incident on Twitter with one of the developers regarding the "new" AI difficulty.

I remember as well and he even edited his reply to take it out. Mike Evans I think it was. He's lost it a few times in the past but thats good. I like passionate devs.. shows they care and are not just collecting a paycheck.

 

[xondk]

.

I want to point something out, that I hope you will add to your initial post.
Namely specifically that, talking about the theory of a subject, what is best practice of the theory, is by many orders of magnitude different from actually making a game that follows those theories, it is not an easy thing.

I agree with the theory, though I do not agree with your title, I think Elite is doing better then ever, maybe the AI skill jump was abrupt for some people, and it clashes with their expectations of being still able to take down wings of ships on their own as they could before, but now get blown up, and it makes them upset because now they do not feel like special/super strong vs ai or such anymore, but I really don't think the game is failing because of this, it was a jolt and there's some stumbling but overall its heading forward.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

The first two bits are becoming a daily cringe

I don't think it's as niche as it's ended up - I think the lack of challenge really did put a lot of people off and it never had a big publicity campaign, rather broadsided by other campaigns that didn't even use their real game in the process. The collective jaw-dropping at the procedural galaxy of NMS has been matched by the number of people wanting to do all the things Elite is designed around - these people just haven't seen it, or haven't connected with it....

Atmospherics won't be an ultra-gamechanger in themselves, but it will mean a more level playing field feature-wise as far as what the general currently uninformed/uninterested public see I think - the idea of flying down to lush valleys and oceans is very appealing to a lot of people and when you look at what it can be like..... gotta admit this would sell more copies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Teqt1Fz8A

Yeah infinity looks good too but flying around a planet and being in awe is fun only for a while. You can do that with space engine. It gets boring. That is why we need gameplay that makes a purpose for exploring.

Why they haven't had exploration missions still baffles my mind. I mean you could fit a special camera modules that has a suite of sensors that require you to get into atmospheric flight and orbit it a few times until the cameras have acquired everything it needs. Then return for a reward. I mean how simple is that? Plus you get eye candy and money for doing it.

 

[frostypaw]

Why they haven't had exploration missions still baffles my mind. I mean you could fit a special camera modules that has a suite of sensors that require you to get into atmospheric flight and orbit it a few times until the cameras have acquired everything it needs. Then return for a reward. I mean how simple is that? Plus you get eye candy and money for doing it.

You reckon with how much people complain about grinding already they'd be happy for their game time to be taken up with the 2-3 hours it could take to go around a tiny planet in atmospheric flight to do that?

I totally agree there needs to be stuff down there and things to do - but my hopes are on the ruins of a long gone civilisation with PG dead cities to map by SRV and the extents of their old empire to find

 

[Colonel Kenney]

I want to point something out, that I hope you will add to your initial post.
Namely specifically that, talking about the theory of a subject, what is best practice of the theory, is by many orders of magnitude different from actually making a game that follows those theories, it is not an easy thing.

I agree with the theory, though I do not agree with your title, I think Elite is doing better then ever, maybe the AI skill jump was abrupt for some people, and it clashes with their expectations of being still able to take down wings of ships on their own as they could before, but now get blown up, and it makes them upset because now they do not feel like special/super strong vs ai or such anymore, but I really don't think the game is failing because of this, it was a jolt and there's some stumbling but overall its heading forward.

You are completely entitled to your opinion and I may be guilty of a wrong title - but the title was meant to show WHY they are not succeeding as well as they SHOULD BE. The ultimate problem with this game is the gameplay style. Grinding and the "treadmill" mechanic in MMO's have been done to death but if its done in a reasonable way it can work. This version is beyond the sweet spot and its literally I grind. I didnt bring up the "miles wide inch deep grind" MEME that this game has been given - the people who purchased and played the game did. This is just a response to the great numbers of people you can clearly see in the forums and elsewhere who are stating this fact.

This is hopefully a clear way to describe to FD where they are failing and how to change the game to be a little more fun for more people.

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You reckon with how much people complain about grinding already they'd be happy for their game time to be taken up with the 2-3 hours it could take to go around a tiny planet in atmospheric flight to do that?

I totally agree there needs to be stuff down there and things to do - but my hopes are on the ruins of a long gone civilisation with PG dead cities to map by SRV and the extents of their old empire to find

Not 2-3 hours are you kidding me. The "sweet spot" I'd have it would take a person an hour to do an entire solar system (smaller one) and make that a 3rd level of scanning planets. Make exploration pay off. Also bonuses for discovering high mineral compositions.

 

[frostypaw]

Not 2-3 hours are you kidding me. The "sweet spot" I'd have it would take a person an hour to do an entire solar system (smaller one) and make that a 3rd level of scanning planets. Make exploration pay off. Also bonuses for discovering high mineral compositions.

That'd be cool - it could tell you which are just rock and which have high metal content - even which are terraformable. We could call it a level 3 scan, where 1 is the honk, 2 is a basic scan and 3 the one with an extra bit of kit. Actually that sounds almost precisely like the DSS's functionality

 

[Insomnia]

I do recall in the Beta discussion, someone pointed out a lot of the big problems with Engineers and how grinding for Engineer ranks was just not fun/good game design. A developer actually posted in that thread and really went off on the guy, only to later apologize for having been unable to take the criticism. There was also a similar incident on Twitter with one of the developers regarding the "new" AI difficulty.

I remember that, but in the designer's defence the OP was insulting the designer a little. But it got me thinking if the designer's furious response was because of the OP insulting the designer, or if the designers are really struggling with things. Who knows.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

I remember that, but in the designer's defence the OP was insulting the designer a little. But it got me thinking if the designer's furious response was because of the OP insulting the designer, or if the designers are really struggling with things. Who knows.

I wonder if he was the same one that went off about mining not being what they wanted and he was frustrated they couldn't make it any better like he was being held back or something.

 

[Sylow]

I wonder if he was the same one that went off about mining not being what they wanted and he was frustrated they couldn't make it any better like he was being held back or something.

Seems to be a recurring theme in this game. "We wanted to do something really awesome, but then the manager came and told us to save time and remove the awesome".

 

[Daffan]

make sandbox multiplayer great again.