Engineers Why is Elite Failing (in my opinion)? Negative Feedback Loops - An Analysis

[eqinox]

For quite some time now, for ME and I would imagine many others, including some in FDEV, thinking about playing E: D is more fun than actually doing so. Thanks RNGesus.

Word. This also means lurking in the forums instead of playing the game. Partly since 'fun' is lacking and to avoid the soul crushing grind.

But also, in the hope of reading some hint of FD finally taking note and making significant changes to fix the problems the game has. But so far, only the most glaring problems seem to be fixed. This game doesn't deserve the negative reviews and doesn't need to remain a niche game.

 

[Sams]

I used to play a game called Everquest. When I reached max level and the guild started doing hard core raids it wasn't unusual to wipe a lot. The problem with EverQuest was that each time to died you lost XP. This meant is wasn't unusual for us all to drop a level or two.

That meant for the next week we all had to mindlessly grind back to max level and all that time grinding we all KNEW that we would gain nothing from it because we all had better raid gear.

I was in heaven when I switched to WOW I found out that would never, ever happen again.

Engineers is hampering play in the same way EQ turned high-end content into a massive grind-fest for little to no reward. It quickly stops becoming fun because time=reward is not guaranteed AND currently is can also mean time=worst reward.

To finally get all the Tier 5 parts together and roll to then find out the T3 was better very quickly makes you think "is this all actually worth bothering with?"

I cannot think of any other game that can reward you with worse than you have once you obtain the highest ingredients/components etc.

The most successful of games all have one thing in common... they scale rewards and make the time VS reward worth spending the time in the game.

Make is too easy (WOW currently) and millions leave. Make it too difficult or make the time vs reward a big time sink with an inbuilt chance of less reward (elite currently) and people will also leave.

Engineers is a long way from the sweet spot needed.

 

[h347h]

I used to play a game called Everquest. When I reached max level and the guild started doing hard core raids it wasn't unusual to wipe a lot. The problem with EverQuest was that each time to died you lost XP. This meant is wasn't unusual for us all to drop a level or two.

That meant for the next week we all had to mindlessly grind back to max level and all that time grinding we all KNEW that we would gain nothing from it because we all had better raid gear.

I was in heaven when I switched to WOW I found out that would never, ever happen again.

Engineers is hampering play in the same way EQ turned high-end content into a massive grind-fest for little to no reward. It quickly stops becoming fun because time=reward is not guaranteed AND currently is can also mean time=worst reward.

To finally get all the Tier 5 parts together and roll to then find out the T3 was better very quickly makes you think "is this all actually worth bothering with?"

I cannot think of any other game that can reward you with worse than you have once you obtain the highest ingredients/components etc.

The most successful of games all have one thing in common... they scale rewards and make the time VS reward worth spending the time in the game.

Make is too easy (WOW currently) and millions leave. Make it too difficult or make the time vs reward a big time sink with an inbuilt chance of less reward (elite currently) and people will also leave.

Engineers is a long way from the sweet spot needed.

This IMHO is the gold standard in what mod tiers should be.

http://inara.cz/galaxy-blueprint/10

Versus the opposite here.

http://inara.cz/galaxy-blueprint/2

(too much overlap)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I used to play a game called Everquest. When I reached max level and the guild started doing hard core raids it wasn't unusual to wipe a lot. The problem with EverQuest was that each time to died you lost XP. This meant is wasn't unusual for us all to drop a level or two.

That meant for the next week we all had to mindlessly grind back to max level and all that time grinding we all KNEW that we would gain nothing from it because we all had better raid gear.

I was in heaven when I switched to WOW I found out that would never, ever happen again.

Engineers is hampering play in the same way EQ turned high-end content into a massive grind-fest for little to no reward. It quickly stops becoming fun because time=reward is not guaranteed AND currently is can also mean time=worst reward.

To finally get all the Tier 5 parts together and roll to then find out the T3 was better very quickly makes you think "is this all actually worth bothering with?"

I cannot think of any other game that can reward you with worse than you have once you obtain the highest ingredients/components etc.

The most successful of games all have one thing in common... they scale rewards and make the time VS reward worth spending the time in the game.

Make is too easy (WOW currently) and millions leave. Make it too difficult or make the time vs reward a big time sink with an inbuilt chance of less reward (elite currently) and people will also leave.

Engineers is a long way from the sweet spot needed.

The problem with this statement is that you are implying that the engineers is whole meaning of this game. In everqust the game is leveling then end game content. That doesn't exist in this type of game. There is no level gating. You get a grade 3 update and you a are really lucky to get one better than a grade 5, don't upgrade it then. It's not like you need the grade 5 to get to the next bit of game is it.

 

[Sams]

The problem with this statement is that you are implying that the engineers is whole meaning of this game. In everqust the game is leveling then end game content. That doesn't exist in this type of game. There is no level gating. You get a grade 3 update and you a are really lucky to get one better than a grade 5, don't upgrade it then. It's not like you need the grade 5 to get to the next bit of game is it.

I agree up to a point.

The FSD upgrades matter a lot (and is the only upgrade I've done). Every tiny improvement can help immensely with trading and exploring.

I don't mind getting the materials. I do mind that T5 doesn't mean it is better than T4 or T3. Even if a T5 roll had a minimum 0.1% improvement over the lesser tiers it is still a win and... plausibly still worth spending hours/days/weeks obtaining the parts.

 

[Oztig]

Snip ...
A customer in a restaurant who critisized the food - you don't boot them out or ignore them. You take into consideration their beefs and if you hear the same issues over and over again you'd think they'd change the menu / recipe.

Snip ..

The problem with this analogy is that in a lot of cases we have vegans entering a steak house and complaining about the food offered. They are never going to like what is on offer, and the restaurant is not going to change it's menu.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree up to a point.

The FSD upgrades matter a lot (and is the only upgrade I've done). Every tiny improvement can help immensely with trading and exploring.

I don't mind getting the materials. I do mind that T5 doesn't mean it is better than T4 or T3. Even if a T5 roll had a minimum 0.1% improvement over the lesser tiers it is still a win and... plausibly still worth spending hours/days/weeks obtaining the parts.

But here is the problem with your argument. Did you enjoy trading before the engineers. If you did what's changed. You can get a better FSD drive. It isn't vital, just useful. You don't need it.

I haven't even been to an engineer yet. There really is no rush.

 

[Sams]

But here is the problem with your argument. Did you enjoy trading before the engineers. If you did what's changed. You can get a better FSD drive. It isn't vital, just useful. You don't need it.

I haven't even been to an engineer yet. There really is no rush.

Again I do see your point

The Cutter has a terrible jump range. When I wing up with trader friends they can 2-jump to my 3 or 4. I'd like to be able to up the range so they don't hang around for me.

Yes I enjoy trading... but I really enjoy wing-trading for the bonuses and being with friends. I would enjoy it more if I wasn't slowing them down. I could downgrade to an anaconda and reduce profits but the bottom-line trader in me hates me for even thinking it

None of the other upgrades interest me. This one does so I am actively pursuing it for a better gaming experience from my own point of view.

Time=less reward is absurd and I've never seen it in any other game. I guess that was the main point I was trying to make.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Again I do see your point

The Cutter has a terrible jump range. When I wing up with trader friends they can 2-jump to my 3 or 4. I'd like to be able to up the range so they don't hang around for me.

Yes I enjoy trading... but I really enjoy wing-trading for the bonuses and being with friends. I would enjoy it more if I wasn't slowing them down. I could downgrade to an anaconda and reduce profits but the bottom-line trader in me hates me for even thinking it

None of the other upgrades interest me. This one does so I am actively pursuing it for a better gaming experience from my own point of view.

Time=less reward is absurd and I've never seen it in any other game. I guess that was the main point I was trying to make.

Erm, what do you do when they upgrade their drives too?

 

[Rigmor]

Word. This also means lurking in the forums instead of playing the game. Partly since 'fun' is lacking and to avoid the soul crushing grind.

But also, in the hope of reading some hint of FD finally taking note and making significant changes to fix the problems the game has. But so far, only the most glaring problems seem to be fixed. This game doesn't deserve the negative reviews and doesn't need to remain a niche game.

Wow! read my mind since Engineers landed, not ONE FDev post on the feedback, positive or negative

 

[Sams]

Erm, what do you do when they upgrade their drives too?

We mostly do routes where it's a 1 jump trade route for them. Even if they upgrade the route will still be the same 1 jump for them but hopefully it will also then be 1 jump for me.

 

[ShimEnki]

and doesn't need to remain a niche game.

You more than touched on the canker thats bothing a select few on this forum. Any report that expresses challenge about the game, be it bugs or difficulty level...anyyything, these players rally to stomp on that fire. They are holding on for dear life partly due to some of their identification with the game seems its being attacked, but they know, that the niche game must evolve, or die.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

We mostly do routes where it's a 1 jump trade route for them. Even if they upgrade the route will still be the same 1 jump for them but hopefully it will also then be 1 jump for me.

Fair enough. Hope it works out.

 

[Sams]

Fair enough. Hope it works out.

I used to have good shields because everything was a race... including launching from the stations. It can be quite...erm... entertaining to see a cutter and 3 anacondas all racing (and going through) the letterbox at warp 9, at the same time, just to be the first out

I tell you, traders find crazy ways to try and one-up each other in a wing

 

[bitstorm]

This IMHO is the gold standard in what mod tiers should be.

http://inara.cz/galaxy-blueprint/10

Versus the opposite here.

http://inara.cz/galaxy-blueprint/2

(too much overlap)

THat seems reasonably easy to fix.

There's equipment already out there I suppose which would complicate it a bit but I guess you could just leave that as it is.

 

[RoLnD79]

There's no reason to have to go to a 5 if you get a great roll on a 4. It will show you when you look at the 5, how much increase or decrease your chance is, in each aspect of the mod your doing. I put an increased FSD range level 4 on my cutter an hour ago, I nailed the optimized mass, I don't think I could of gotten it any higher. It added almost 5.5 light years to my jump range. Fully laden I can carry 720T right around 20Ly now, awesome for my trading. The point is, if I do a level 5, I can only make my optimized mass Better by 5%, but I can make it worse by 17%. 5% probably isn't much at all, so I'm not going to bother with it.

it depends how you look at it, you can say "well It's not right that a level 5 can be worse than a level 3", or you can look at it as "hey I got a great level 3 or level 4, I don't even have to mess with level 5."

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I refer you to this well written document on careers and game design and how they overlap. How to be successful at engaging customers, and employees. I'll copy/paste some of it but if you want to read it yourself go here:

http://www.gamified.uk/2013/03/25/feedback-loops-gamification-and-employee-motivation/

To anyone involved in game design, feedback loops will be a well known concept. To those in gamification, they are often talked about, but not everyone will know what they actually are and how they can be used.

Feedback loops come in two main flavors; positive feedback loops and negative feedback loops.

Feedback loops are like this:

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/feedback-loop.jpg

A positive feedback loop amplifies something, whereas a negative feedback loop will reduce something.

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/positive-feedback-loop.jpg

So, we have negative feedback loops as well. Whilst the player may be getting stronger and stronger, what if as their boosts multiply, their ability to find health packs or more powerful weapons was reduced, leaving more pickups for the less skilled players – giving them a slightly better chance of winning. This kind of balancing effect would help to keep them engaged with the game, rather than just quitting! It may seem unfair to the more skilled player, but you would not want them getting bored either!

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/negative-feedback-loop.jpg

Ideally you want to keep a balance of positive feedback loops going to keep gamers in the sweet spot.

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/flow-feedback-and-employee-journey.jpg

This is how it should work

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/positive-feedback-loop-work.jpg

This is how it actually is

http://i.imgur.com/6f37ji6.png

Now actually insert the random element into the game. The Engineers. This is what happened.

Take a Slot machine in a casino. Put money in, pull the lever, stand a chance of getting money out. Ignoring the random nature of the payout for a moment, most people are of the opinion that the more money there is in a slot machine, the more chance there is that it will pay out. So, here you have your positive feedback loop.

However, there is a random element here as well, the win comes at a seemingly random time. Whilst you know that your chances of winning are increasing, you don’t know when that win will happen. In gambling, this is often where the addiction lies – that element of chance, with the knowledge you have to win eventually!

Or people realize the game is rigged and you will need to sit there for hours blowing your money for no reason and you won't gamble. This is EXACTLY what we are seeing.

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/slot-machine-feedback-loop1.jpg

The same applies to employment.

http://gamified.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/employee-feedback-loop.jpg


Now here is how I see it. How things have gone wrong. The graph isn't entirely accurate and I'm not entirely sure how to portray it but you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

http://i.imgur.com/gH7WTi8.png


CONCLUSION - Using feedback loops and shorter defined goals and checkpoints, we can help keep people far more engaged than just expecting them to repeat an action over and over again with no feedback or visible chance of a “win” at all.

I didn't want to put everything in. But this is a good start of a discussion.

My main points are this

Making something challenging does not mean making it tedious to obtain.

Example: Making 29 trips to get someone enough brandy is not challenging. It is tedious.

Qualifying for Engineer upgrades is not challenging. It is a job.

Advancing your naval ranking is not difficult, its tedious.

Doing missions in some cases are difficult and in many cases too difficult because of interdictions and AI cheating etc.

http://i.imgur.com/BbyhudN.png

Why are all the whiners still whining? Pretty pictures don't alter the fact that most of the "problems" in the game relate to the psychology of those who desire instant gratification, & who are all playing towards a non-existent "end game".....& so want the "perfect" ship, with the "perfect" load-out, that amounts to an "I win" button. It is all these people who whine about "grinding", & also the ones who whine about the "too hard" AI because it makes their unneccessary "grinding" even longer. You, Colonel, are one of the worst offenders.....and your hate for this game has been made abundantly clear over the last 18 months.....yet so funny how someone who so hates the game can happily expend so much time and energy complaining about it. We can just file your predictions of "imminent failure" with all the others that have been made for the last 2 years.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Original theory good. But then you go and say this: There's no evidence for that at all - you've just made an assertion about how a professional company performs their user-testing with nothing to back it up.

Forums may or may not be an accurate representation of a user base, but the devs will have a much bigger picture than we do and presuming they take use of the well established field of user-experience analysis/testing they'll be well placed to fill in the real facts.

The Colonel has a long history of using lies & hyperbole to make his points. Its what he has to use in lieu of a valid argument. See, whiny grinders surround themselves with other whiny grinders, so they convince themselves-via reinforcement-that it is the game, rather than their own behaviour, which is at fault.

 

[xXR34P3RXx]

Long winded bullcrap and ad hominems

quality troll posting friend

 

[Khelder]

Why are all the whiners still whining? Pretty pictures don't alter the fact that most of the "problems" in the game relate to the psychology of those who desire instant gratification, & who are all playing towards a non-existent "end game".....& so want the "perfect" ship, with the "perfect" load-out, that amounts to an "I win" button. ...

This argument has also been made many times. It's just another one of the extremes.

There is no "end game" to Elite unless you yourself have an "end goal". For instance, you personally might consider acquiring an Anaconda to be the "end game". If you do, you're only really doing that for yourself.

Personally, I think it's a little odd that Frontier chose to put an injection of new "content" (not much content if you ask me, but it's something) behind a wall of (let's not use the word "grind") doing-a-bunch-of-the-same-things-you've-always-done. RNG frustrations aside, this is probably going to be ok for players who are in for the long haul and like to spend large chunks for time/effort to achieve something.

But there is, I presume, a large number of players who like to generally tinker with things - different things. There are players who might choose to do something completely different from session to session. I know there is at least one because that type of person is quite often me. I'd really like to go on a proper exploration trip someday, but that would really necessitate another built up account. That's because I don't particularly want to end up in a situation where my choices are limited and I can't just decide to do a spot of trading or something.

So in comes Engineers. There's possibly a few things that I would experiment with out of curiosity. But it would just be playing around. I can live without them. And I will be because I'm not really interested in going through the process of getting them. Particularly since, as someone mentioned, I'd just be railroaded into one path. It's not like it's something I can slowly save up for by otherwise playing the game the way I want to.

I'm not saying that everything should be catered to casual players who just want to experiment with things. It's just interesting that, from what I read, Engineers seem to be so far against that form of play.

On another point with the whole "there is no end game" / "don't rush" arguments... what exactly is the point of upgrades if they are not to allow a player to "progress" towards... whatever... faster? Jump further to make trading faster or exploring further. Increase weapon damage to decimate your enemies quicker. You're always getting somewhere faster.

 

[Dread Lord]

Elite is awesome and not failing! noob!