Why is there more malice aimed at people wanting mining the way it was than towards the people who exploited it?

[RiotRabit]

So here is my issue with this. Mods have turned Skyrim into a sandbox where you can start out how powerful and rich you want to be. Why? Because Skyrim has been out for ages. People never consider that there also needs to be a balance in leveling for a game that's been out for people that have a 6 year head start and years worth of a gold rush. It is imperative that new players get afforded the same opportunities, and god forbid, maybe even a bump to get them where they need to be so they can experience something like Open play in a few weeks rather than 8 months and being ganked the first 5 minutes in Open because they haven't grinded for a year to get where everyone else is.

Here is a real-world example of what you're asking for:

Person A is born in 1990. They go through school, get a job, and work this job for 10 years.
Person B is born in 2000. They go through school and get a job at in the same factory doing the same thing Person A does. However, Person B was born 10 years later and expects to be given a starting salary equal to or greater than Person A to help them catch up in savings.

Outside of adjusting for inflation, this does not work.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

I'm fairly new to ED by about 4 months.

I don' t think I got my first Python within 6 months of starting the game. This isn't me just being an old 'In my day it was tough so you kids should have powdered egg too' thing. I genuinely believe you miss out on so much if you just zip through that in a matter of weeks.

I'm not saying you have and I'm not saying my progress was the norm, maybe, just like at school, I was the slowest kid in the class.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

I wouldn't say it was hate, I would say that after a year long run on massively inflated prices, it's funny to see people getting mad about it as though nothing was wrong before. A bit like watching the Yuppies' in the late 80's when out all went wrong and they were crying into their Filofaxes. Maybe that is just my spiteful side coming out.



The problem there is, if you just flatline all the prices, then you have no special commodities. Water is as valuable as LTDs, that seems silly. LTD's are supposed to be rare, hence the high price.

Realistically, (I'm making the numbers up because I don't know), if your FC can carry 25k ton of cargo, being able to fill that with LTD's is silly. Hardly rare at all then. So they should retain a higher price than water but be rare to find. So as you go out in your carrier, over the course of a month, you might be able to make a billion with LTD's, not one session or a couple of nights. What people seem to want, be screaming for, is for them to be very common and very valuable. Makes no sense.

If you like the gameplay of Deep Core Mining, then it doesn't;t really matter what the profits are, does it? So long as it pays a reasonable amount, you're having fun. It's the same for trade, combat and exploring. None of them are 500m an hour sports but loads of people love them and do them regardless of th profit margin, why should mining be any different?

I've seen a few people reference the noob, pretty much stating that they will all leave the game or that they face a grind now. Look at it this way though, right up until the peak of mining, the entire player base had gone through that. No one has the figures but some stayed, some went. I'm guessing the majority stuck with it. Why all of a sudden does that matter? If we all did it and managed it, why won't they? Frankly it rather condescending to think loads of new players won't be able to handle what anyone who purchased the game over a year ago, went through.

In a more compassionate argument against huge mining profits bringing accelerated progress, I think the new player loses out of something quite amazing. I posted once on here about the magical part of the game when you're about 3/4 up the way of the steep learning curve, you're not dying every time you leave a station, you've learned about some aspects of the game, you're on this intermediate level, it is simply one of the coolest levels to be in on this game. By leaving mining in as it was, people by-pass that, they get the idea, are encouraged to believe, that the game is about, getting out of a Sidewinder and into an FC as fast as possible, You're robbing them, IMO, of a great experience, a real learning curve to overcome that results in a feeling of achievement that (again in my opinion), is unlikely to be found, sitting in a ring blasting rocks all night.

Prices for LTD have been lowered though. Not only that, but the content of rocks have been lowered. Not only that, but the content of hotspots are just flat out wrong. Not only that, FC's coupled with the new Station Demand mechanic (for any commodity) will see the demand for commodities unrealistically drop in about 10-30 minutes of a price boom. There is a lot that needs fixing here.

Also, and this is sad in my opinion, your comment on how new players will enjoy the game more if they grinded more than the people before them reads just like start to EA's record breaking downvoted comment on players feeling a sense of pride and accomplishment of the grind. Seriously, I have not seen an MMO community that likes grinding as much as the ED community, and then want to put new players through a HARDER part of that grind.

 

[Old Duck]

Most older MMO's have catch up mechanics, up to and including paid character boosts.

So you're telling me you're not aware that even new players can purchase in-game currency if they want to mitigate a bit of the grind so they can enjoy some perks even if they're a new player?

I'm beginning to wonder why it triggers people so much that others be afforded a bit of a headstart.

Pay to win, that's what you want? That will definitely trigger people. But FWIW, I suggested making fleet carriers purchasable using real $$$, making them basically DLC content. That idea was shot down very quickly. I suggested this because a FC is "other" - it's not a ship in the traditional sense, so wouldn't need to be in the line of progression of flyable ships. Sure, this means a noob could own a FC if he coughed up the $$, but it would be a fleet carrier loaded with Sidewinders, Adders, etc. I'd actually prefer this over the imbalanced, immersion & lore-breaking payouts we were getting from mining.

TBH it would not surprise me if Frontier were to offer some sort of "credits for Arx" "catch up" package, mainly because Frontier loves selling silly things for Arx. I'd almost prefer this if it means trade and economy are balanced to something sensible once again. That way at least the game I play would retain a sense of challenge and immersion.

So if this is what you are proposing, then sure, I'll give you my vote.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Here is a real-world example of what you're asking for:

Person A is born in 1990. They go through school, get a job, and work this job for 10 years.
Person B is born in 2000. They go through school and get a job at in the same factory doing the same thing Person A does. However, Person B was born 10 years later and expects to be given a starting salary equal to or greater than Person A to help them catch up in savings.

Outside of adjusting for inflation, this does not work.

Lol. This is not the real world, but I like your real world logic! Imagine if this same real world logic could have been applied to FC's when they were released so we wouldn't even be in this predicament of people making 100 billion in a day filling their hold with 20K tons of LTDs. Hell, you didn't even have to mine yourself. You just priced LTD's right and miners would deliver them right to you.

Here's the real world example. FC's should have been a novelty. Expensive to buy and very expensive to own. There should have been risk associated with having an FC. Like the real world, selling it back shouldn't net the buy price. In the real world, do you see everyone driving around with a Maserati do you?

 

[Vetinari]

Permit locked systems - the higher in mining rank you go the more permits you get. Base systems have lower value, higher have higher value and plenty of hotspots, but you have to earn your place at the table.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

new players will enjoy the game more if they grinded more than the people before them

I didn’t say new players should grind more than the people before them did. I said it was condescending to think that all new players will leave if they have to do what all players did before. It is an undeniable fact that stacks of players went through the ‘grind’ as you put it and still play and enjoy the game today. Why is a noob any different?

As for your points on LTD’s, you’re right. It’s been like that now for not even a week. It will get balanced. Who knows when, who knows how, no idea. They allowed the wrong situation of LTD’s being a gold rush for around a year.

Not even a week and look at the howling we have seen. Once you’ve played this game for a year or two or longer, you’ll know this tiny, tiny blip will be replaced with another outrage very quickly.

 

[RiotRabit]

Lol. This is not the real world, but I like your real world logic! Imagine if this same real world logic could have been applied to FC's when they were released so we wouldn't even be in this predicament of people making 100 billion in a day filling their hold with 20K tons of LTDs. Hell, you didn't even have to mine yourself. You just priced LTD's right and miners would deliver them right to you.

Here's the real world example. FC's should have been a novelty. Expensive to buy and very expensive to own. There should have been risk associated with having an FC. Like the real world, selling it back shouldn't net the buy price. In the real world, do you see everyone driving around with a Maserati do you?

The sandbox we play in may not be the real world, but the players in it are. What you are arguing for has been attempted in past MMOs and always with the same result: a general perceived degredation of the game, and an overall decline in players.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

Pay to win, that's what you want? That will definitely trigger people. But FWIW, I suggested making fleet carriers purchasable using real $$$, making them basically DLC content. That idea was shot down very quickly. I suggested this because a FC is "other" - it's not a ship in the traditional sense, so wouldn't need to be in the line of progression of flyable ships. Sure, this means a noob could own a FC if he coughed up the $$, but it would be a fleet carrier loaded with Sidewinders, Adders, etc. I'd actually prefer this over the imbalanced, immersion & lore-breaking payouts we were getting from mining.

TBH it would not surprise me if Frontier were to offer some sort of "credits for Arx" "catch up" package, mainly because Frontier loves selling silly things for Arx. I'd almost prefer this if it means trade and economy are balanced to something sensible once again. That way at least the game I play would retain a sense of challenge and immersion.

So if this is what you are proposing, then sure, I'll give you my vote.

ESO offering to buy in-game credits doesn't mean it's pay to win. I don't think you can win anything with their offering but it does offer ways to alleviate things like having larger storage, a bigger bank, etc. The Division 2 allows you to pay to jump to the current game DLC level. Does this suck for people like me that grinded it from the beginning? Sure. However, I was more grateful that I could start a few friends at my current level so they could play with me right away than have to wait for them to play for months to catch up to me. However, they still had to grind the gear, the credits, and the material. I would say it was harder for them because I had more time to gather that stuff up than they did. In any case, it mastered the balance of new players vs veteran ones.

Everyone is focusing on the credit grind and want people to experience the suffering but there's plenty of suffering to go around in this game. I only have half my engineers, I only have two ships, I have no FC, I still have to farm higher grade mats, I still have to grind money for a higher ship rating, I still have to fly my butt 5000LY for a couple of engineers, 25000LY for a few more, not to mention grinding out combat to unlock even more engineers, not to mention grinding out Fed/Imperial ranks to unlock all the ships (with systems being closed due to pirating so it breaks the courier loop). Trust me, there's still plenty of grinding to go even if you had players fork over $5 so they can be boosted with 200mil credits to afford a catch up Python with A-rated internals.

 

[Dragsham]

I played wow for over 10 years. I watched it go from vanilla niche to the world's largest MMO of all time.
In that time I watched angrily as gear became easier to aquire. Raids became repetitive and easier. The idiocracy crept in. It became a Shadow of its former self.
Appealing to masses to raise revenue as market dept took over and destroyed a game that was almost perfect.
Elites going the same way.
Introduction of the new scanners allowing players to easily scan a whole system rather than flying out to each body.
And so on.... saddens me. I've only played elite since Christmas and now l only play elite.
Credits pay for modules and ships as well as the running costs of a carrier. And that's pretty much it.
So to me the gameplay isn't grinding credits it's grinding rep/inf or mats or guardian/thargoid stuff etc. None of which is influenced by credits...thankfully.
I took no part in the eggnog mining of late. I'm glad they nerfed it.
We all want a level playing field.
But how you engineer.
Or how you explore or trade...is entirely upto the individual.
We're all in this together. 6 years of unfixed unbalanced gameplay doesn't put us off.
The beautiful game goes on.
So keep posting be positive and helpful.
And to those that did partake..good luck I say. Don't get why u need 40 billion credits it won't do you any good.
Now engineering 6 ships in the last 7 months now that's good.
Like most I'm a family man working and time is limited.
Mining was a way to pay for a carrier and put 4 billion away to cover costs.
Just wish credit farming took a back seat to gameplay and community rather than splitting us apart.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

The sandbox we play in may not be the real world, but the players in it are. What you are arguing for has been attempted in past MMOs and always with the same result: a general perceived degredation of the game, and an overall decline in players.

There are MMO's that have been around longer, with those mechanics, and with populations with superior numbers. Space simming is a niche though and really, ED was in a league of its own compared to early SC, but even SC now has a insanely greater population and it's a game where you literally pay for everything and has been in a perpetual alpha.

 

[gorankar]

The addition of FC's and their bottomless pit of a cargo hold could perhaps make people have 100 billion in a day, right? Just exploit and keep filling your FC hold until a 1.7 mil profit rolled around and just make round trips from the FC to the station. I think it would be VERY easy to catch the people that did this.

Filling FC holds is not an exploit, that is intended game play. Between mining yourself, and buying LTD, one could make 20-40B on sell day if you found a station at 1.7M with adequate demand, without exploits. It may have taken a few days to acquire the cargo needed for that payday, but it was possible.
I could fill the 14K ton hold space I had left over in a week without exploits. Then again, I am not even sure what you consider an exploit. Is it just the Egg/SLF method, or does it include more than that?

 

[Old Duck]

Everyone is focusing on the credit grind and want people to experience the suffering but there's plenty of suffering to go around in this game.

While I'm sure that's part of it, it's not the primary reason I personally want "credit grind". I want a game that offers at least a semi-realistic economy and sense of progression. Your OP sounded like you wanted to change this in order to make the game easier for new players, but easy for you would ruin the game for me. I actually ENJOYED the fact it took me six months to go from Sidewinder to Anaconda by playing the game normally (which included some mining). This was three years ago, so it was a very different game back then. Now it feels like "easy mode" in comparison.

But the ability to buy in-game credits with real world money, I'm actually okay with that. Why? Because then you are not changing my game, you are changing your game, and you're doing so at a cost to you, not me. So sure, balance the economy, fix mining exploits, buff some other payouts for higher-ranked players, and offer "credits for cash" to new players. As long as you are buying credits and not rank or influence, I have no problem with this.

All that said, LOTS of people do have a problem with this (including Frontier, last they commented on the topic), so brace yourself for push back.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Pay to win, that's what you want? That will definitely trigger people. But FWIW, I suggested making fleet carriers purchasable using real $$$, making them basically DLC content. That idea was shot down very quickly. I suggested this because a FC is "other" - it's not a ship in the traditional sense, so wouldn't need to be in the line of progression of flyable ships. Sure, this means a noob could own a FC if he coughed up the $$, but it would be a fleet carrier loaded with Sidewinders, Adders, etc. I'd actually prefer this over the imbalanced, immersion & lore-breaking payouts we were getting from mining.

TBH it would not surprise me if Frontier were to offer some sort of "credits for Arx" "catch up" package, mainly because Frontier loves selling silly things for Arx. I'd almost prefer this if it means trade and economy are balanced to something sensible once again. That way at least the game I play would retain a sense of challenge and immersion.

So if this is what you are proposing, then sure, I'll give you my vote.

I'm saying they exist, and most MMO's have catch up mechanics for newer people and/or returning players. They are non pay to win options. You simply made a statement, which I commented on. I don't advocate for pay to win.

Payouts have been unbalanced as long as the game has been out. The most fun I ever had making money (Robigo shadow deliveries) was removed. Money making is just a painful, boring grind now, and risk has nothing to do with reward. I'd like to see the bottom tier brought up, as they are incapable of balancing the game.

 

[SgtMajRaz]

I played wow for over 10 years. I watched it go from vanilla niche to the world's largest MMO of all time.
In that time I watched angrily as gear became easier to aquire. Raids became repetitive and easier. The idiocracy crept in. It became a Shadow of its former self.
Appealing to masses to raise revenue as market dept took over and destroyed a game that was almost perfect.
Elites going the same way.
Introduction of the new scanners allowing players to easily scan a whole system rather than flying out to each body.
And so on.... saddens me. I've only played elite since Christmas and now l only play elite.
Credits pay for modules and ships as well as the running costs of a carrier. And that's pretty much it.
So to me the gameplay isn't grinding credits it's grinding rep/inf or mats or guardian/thargoid stuff etc. None of which is influenced by credits...thankfully.
I took no part in the eggnog mining of late. I'm glad they nerfed it.
We all want a level playing field.
But how you engineer.
Or how you explore or trade...is entirely upto the individual.
We're all in this together. 6 years of unfixed unbalanced gameplay doesn't put us off.
The beautiful game goes on.
So keep posting be positive and helpful.
And to those that did partake..good luck I say. Don't get why u need 40 billion credits it won't do you any good.
Now engineering 6 ships in the last 7 months now that's good.
Like most I'm a family man working and time is limited.
Mining was a way to pay for a carrier and put 4 billion away to cover costs.
Just wish credit farming took a back seat to gameplay and community rather than splitting us apart.

I'm a software engineer that works insane hours during the week. I'm lucky if I can eek out an hour or two a night to play. As a 4 month old player, let me tell you what mining prior to the update was to me.

From the beginning, everything is a grind. Like I mentioned in the above posts, credit farming isn't the only thing to do, but the rest of the game is literally a grind. For someone with minimal time to play, it absolutely sucks to grind everything, but I press on. Do you know what helped me keep going on? Having the satisfaction of a good mining session in between grinding for every damn thing else. I knew that, for all my grinding, if it was slow going for weeks I could always take a timeout and have a mining session when the prices topped and it made the little time I had spent playing worthwhile.

 

[RiotRabit]

There are MMO's that have been around longer, with those mechanics, and with populations with superior numbers. Space simming is a niche though and really, ED was in a league of its own compared to early SC, but even SC now has a insanely greater population and it's a game where you literally pay for everything and has been in a perpetual alpha.

I suppose all I can do is wish you the best. If they ever completely remove the intrinsic value from Elite, though, I suppose I'll just have to move on again. XD

 

[Dragsham]

@Sgtmazraz
Agreed way too much grind.
As a software developer may I ask.. is there another way to unlock modules or ships or rep or whatever. If there is why the f**k ain't anyone and I mean blizzard or fdev or egosoft cracked it?

 

[Konan]

Other professions need to be brought way up

Why not just bring mining down to their levels?

 

[Jmanis]

Personally, I am fine with a nerf, but I think it should've been a sell price nerf rather than messing with the content of rocks.

Bottom line with mining is, thanks to the way hotspots work against base chance of finding materials, LTDs and other core materials are more common than basics like water, bauxite and hydrogen peroxide.

For them to make the prices they do by comparison is absolutely absurd.

Take Hydrogen Peroxide vs LTDs as an example. At this rando station:
Hydrogen Peroxide: Price = 1,207, Demand ~=606,000
LTDs: Price: ~=232,000, Demand =~ 600

The knock-on for this is when we get a mission for 45t of Hydrogen Peroxide for a 3m credit reward, when I could go to the same place and get 45t of diamond for 9m at standard prices, let alone 45m at stateful prices, it's a no-brainer, who would do those missions in their right mind?

Considering Hydrogen Peroxide is harder to get (less supply), and is in higher demand, that should make those prices flip.

Gold, Saffron, Truffles, these things hold their price because they are difficult and expensive to obtain.
Diamonds are an even better example... they're expensive because their supply is tightly controlled, rather than being difficult or expensive to get... low supply = high price.

So when diamond production is runaway like it currently is... they shouldn't be worth more than biowaste

Edit: if i was going to fix this, I'd make core mineral prices vary no more than 20-150k due to states, and for factions in investment state, spawn missions seeking 3-4t of these goods, rewarding 4-6m each (that's your 1-2m price) ... that way you can still load up on minerals and either get the good price on some and an ok price for the rest, or journey around hunting missions to hand in to.

Id also substantially change mechanics of mining, making getting a 600t cargohold full of water as easy as getting just 2-3t of diamonds, and scale in between for different base values.

 

[TheSisko]

Understood, but when exactly do people think this will happen? I'm fairly new to ED by about 4 months. How long have people been asking for a balance in credit rewards for other professions?