PvP Why PvP is not popular in Elite Dangerous?

[Chongo]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

This is bait with a slant. I've seen it on the other side as well, so no hard feelings. But you'll look back on this perhaps in many years and realize the wrong. I hope at least. I know I'm constantly evaluating my own jackassery and trying to improve. And it certainly exists, in posts just as bad as this.

The flight model is fun. The setting is fun. It's a good recipe for PvP. I don't see any valid arguments to refute this.

Exploration is hollow. It's currently little more than rolling dice and imagining what that great roll means. It's got a bit more flavor (gotta love it certainly, it's better than so much else out there), it has a unique planet or star sitting on that side of the die, but beyond that, it has no tangible implication on anything beyond my imagination. When with a group, a la Stranger Things episode 1 intro iirc, this is amazing. It is truly amazing. Collaborative imaginings are wildly fun. But when alone, I feel as though I'm rolling a plastic cube offering variants of what I can come up with on my own.

You say that the universe is too large, that it's a waste of time to 'sit in your backyard and shoot other players'. I feel the galaxy is quite small. Its only diversity is lines of code offering us a many sided die, albeit an impressive one that deserves credit.

I find humans offer more.

But find comfort in these forums. Find comfort in the responses to your post. I'll be circling an asteroid in a viper at the pvp hub in an arranged match, drawing fire from PvPers annoyed by my role in a wing, watching vectors on the radar with regard to the asteroids around me, loving the vastness of opportunity in this game, and relishing in the fact that I don't know every side of the die when it comes to humans.

You do your thing though. I hope you find adequate variables to entertain you.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

I'd like to know how engineers affected PvP.
Well, obviously the "gladiator" type of players are always gonna fight, no matter the circumstances.

But my kind, who once turned back against his attackers from time to time, well... Now I just now I'm not engineered enough. So no "wild" pvp for me, I just run.
Maybe with 3.0, if I put time in my modules...

 

[Chongo]

I'd like to know how engineers affected PvP.
Well, obviously the "gladiator" type of players are always gonna fight, no matter the circumstances.

But my kind, who once turned back against his attackers from time to time, well... Now I just now I'm not engineered enough. So no "wild" pvp for me, I just run.
Maybe with 3.0, if I put time in my modules...

It was awful. No simpler answer outside a clever emoticon.

 

[kofeyh]

I wonder how much the PvP Community themselves are the reason some people don't like PvP? I wouldn't want to spend a minute of my gaming time with a player that can spew this kind of trash.

With respect; the amount of vitriol spewed by PVE people hell bent on excommunicating a portion of the player base, renders this comment comically irrelevant. PVP has been demonised, and the anti-social element exists everywhere, not just PVP.

Frontier have a lot to answer for here; they let the community rip itself apart, because they have become decision challenged over how to manage player combat (we're in the "crush the player" stage at this point). Comments such as the above, only reinforce this toxic outcome. It's all just bad people's fault.

We all want a better game. That's a universal constant, and worth remembering.

 

[Mohrgan]

With respect; the amount of vitriol spewed by PVE people hell bent on excommunicating a portion of the player base, renders this comment comically irrelevant. PVP has been demonised, and the anti-social element exists everywhere, not just PVP.

Frontier have a lot to answer for here; they let the community rip itself apart, because they have become decision challenged over how to manage player combat (we're in the "crush the player" stage at this point). Comments such as the above, only reinforce this toxic outcome. It's all just bad people's fault.

We all want a better game. That's a universal constant, and worth remembering.

Blah blah blah. Poor misunderstood PvPers. I know the story. But, remember, I've been here from the beginning. I've played with and around PvPers, in E|D and other games for years. You guys never get a break. And the man is always out to get you. I know, from the inside out. I was one of you, until I saw how I was acting. Nope, I am not fooled at all.

To make this a better game, I am willing to call out when things go crazy. When I see a lack of perspective, or a ridiculous assertion. What that poster wrote was over the line, and I asked a simple question. Maybe that 'tougher skin' I hear about would be worth considering, on both sides of the debate.

 

[Toffa]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

Didn't read all 40-odd pages. In a word: Stacking. The ability to fill your ship with nothing but armor/SCB makes PVP unpopular with me.

It's not about pilot skill it's about attrition. He who's willing to sacrifice EVERY other aspect of their ship to stack the most most armor/SCBs wins. Leaves you with a ship fit for one purpose and one purpose only.

There's nothing tastier than finding one of these CMDRs moving between locations in their 'paper-thin' taxi ships. Best time to strike for maximum salt.

It's fun when I get called names and a coward when I won't turn my FAS, built for general play with some cargo capacity and an SRV etc, around to fight an FDL with nothing but HRP/SCBs on-board

Toffs
( '-')7

 

[kofeyh]

To make this a better game, I am willing to call out when things go crazy. When I see a lack of perspective, or a ridiculous assertion. What that poster wrote was over the line, and I asked a simple question. Maybe that 'tougher skin' I hear about would be worth considering, on both sides of the debate.

Fair call. However you cannot ignore one side of a coin, because it's not convenient to the 'you guys' narrative (aka blame shifting). Open is two sides of the same coin. As are PVP and PVE. Same universe. Blatantly calling out crap behaviour? Sure thing. Just be consistent; otherwise it's just an illustration of confirmation bias.

Also don't label me as "poor misunderstood PVPer", and then attempt to make an entire argument out of it, because that's shifting the goalposts, as well as a fairly blatant attempt to trivialise a response (and it's not like my gameplay is particularly private!).

Crap attitudes abound in all walks of life; the game is no different; nor are the forums. It's pretty evident commanders are a passionate bunch. Frontier have that going for them, at least. But I'm fast approaching the point where the forums become an impossible affair. It's almost impossible to have a factual, logical debate here - without someone or other immediately becoming highly emotional and taking it to an automatic extreme.

The toxicity has gotten pretty bad, imho. It's a huge turn off for engagement. Frontier is at risk of having their primary communication platform with a subsection of the community, become a massive, irreversible wedge.

 

[Mohrgan]

Fair call. However you cannot ignore one side of a coin, because it's not convenient to the 'you guys' narrative (aka blame shifting). Open is two sides of the same coin. Blatantly calling out crap behaviour? Sure thing. Just be consistent; otherwise it's just confirmation bias.

Also don't label me as "poor misunderstood PVPer", and then attempt to make an entire argument out of it, because that's shifting the goalposts, as well as a fairly blatant attempt to trivialise a response. Crap attitudes abound in all walks of life; the game is no different.

I was relating to the Poster who I actually swatted at. I'm not the bad guy here. And, neither are you, unless you want to stick up for that guy, then the question remains open.

I believe, over all, that if people could just leave each other alone, stuff would be fine. I don't care about PvP stuffs, until it becomes: "Open Only" talk. If you'd care to examine my posting history you'll see I have a pretty balanced view, and I stick up for PvPers when they need/deserve it.

 

[UFO Reality]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

Thoughts?

Nutter
O7

PVP is one of the game play styles a person who purchases the game would be interested in.
If you aren't into it its fair enough.
I posted a suggestion:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-award-other-CMDRs-credits-and-issue-bounties
Other CMDR's weren't too impressed but I would like to know if this would work for an explorer that has been griefed.

 

[Arkadi]

I’ve been trying to understand why the vast majority of people are not interested in PvP in Elite Dangerous.
I’d like your thoughts on it, here are my thoughts.

I'd not be to sure about majorities, Nutter. Most people I met (in open) were interested in PvP. Also many people I talk to in the game (not on this forum though) would like to play more pvp if the game wouldn't discourage it (reasons below). I think this is just becouse we perceive our surroundings subjective. An explorer is talking a lot with explorers and meets a lot of explorers and might think they are majority. PvP player meets a lot of other pvp players and might think they are a majority, and so on.

For me, I like the adventure of discovering ‘what is out there’ now I know content is slim at the moment but the fact remains. I will NEVER get in a spaceship and explore the universe/galaxy in my lifetime as much as would love to. ED gives me the opportunity to do that, find weird systems and sometime amazing glitches that add to the experience.
I’ve never seen Elite as an opportunity to sit in my backyard and shoot other players, the galaxy is too big to waste time with that in my opinion.
There are thousands of games out there where the purpose is to shoot each other and do it very well. ED gives me a Galaxy to explore, why on earth would I want to do peew pew when there is a Galaxy to discover? (I’ll repeat at this point that I am aware content is thin on the ground for exploring) But at least I can find cool places to re-visit when content is added.

TLDR?
Summary – Most players purchased ED to wonder at our galaxy in their own time in their own way. For them PvP is just a waste of time and effort.

While I understand what you enjoy in this game now - and to a degree I enjoy just cruising around and looking at the sights too, but as I differ, just exploring is getting pretty old to me much quicker then combat. And PvE combat gets old to me faster the combat against other experienced commanders.
And again I would rather phrase it "many players purchased ED... to do this and that" not "most players .." becouse: do you really know?

Thoughts?

My thoughts why PvP might not be the "most popular" activity:

- Engineer RNG unbalance (adressed with Beyond Chapter 1)
- Peer2peer instancing problems (still an issue for pvp-centric groups that like to organize wing fights)
- no content for group vs group pvp combat to make actual any sense in the game (Powerplay being the closest thing - but in fact it is a PvE environment and PvP only is a sideshow)
- CG's left as only playingground for pvp-combat. Becouse of other good pvp content is missing Community Goals have become the only playingfield for most who want pvp-combat. Unfortunatly this is rather bad, becouse it ruins CG's for those who don't want to pvp in open and ruins pvp-reputation for others. (this also gets adressed with the new Crime&Punishment of Chapter1 - hopefully)

That's my four reasons.

Nutter
O7

Regards,
Arkadi
@~>~

 

[gribley]

I wonder how much the PvP Community themselves are the reason some people don't like PvP? I wouldn't want to spend a minute of my gaming time with a player that can spew this kind of trash.

what exactly are you upset about mate. its universally seen as extremely poor form to do power-play relevant activities in solo or private group as it gives the other side no chance to try and prevent your actions. if you look at the crime and punishment update explanation Power-play is explicitly subject to C&P exceptions for the very purpose of encouraging PvP in that area.
therefore yes, its a scumbag move to do powerplay in solo/private group.
and after that all i am explaining is that if people think power play is awful then don't get involved with it and stay "no faction". everyone wins.

 

[lenna]

Very true! A good ED PvPer is truely an amazing pilot and it's not skills you can get in any planet side flight sim!

In one word - Rubbish.

I know at least one truly good pilot and they do not PvP in ED but when they have the mind to can generally wipe the floor with PvPers who think themselves are good.

PvP in ED Main Environment though is less about skill and too much about ship builds, there are too many OP min-max combat builds (at least for a certain subset of the ships) for this to change significantly. However, while the forthcoming new 3.0 experimental (Human-Xeno Hybrid?) prototype weapons may address this issue to some degree, their acquisition may be a major sticking point.

PvP and PvE has massively different flying demands.
after getting into PvP my PvE skill has declined significantly. a brilliant PvE pilot is unlikely to have much luck in PvP off the bat

I disagree in general, while there are differences between PvP and PvE combat the differences are more with how you apply tactics and builds than anything else. Where PvE pilots may be disadvantaged in a PvP setting is from ship build choices due at least in part to certain OP PvP metas that really need to be nerfed. A good pilot may be able to defeat the metas to at least some degree but there are limits.

If your PvE skills have declined, then it is more than likely down to learning bad combat habits than anything else. I am far from an ED PvP/PvE combat expert but I know my limits and there are certain things that remain true regardless of the combat environment.

Regardless of the type of opponent, AI or Human, you should always keep situational awareness and apply tactics that are appropriate for the situation you are in. AI opponents on the whole tend to be more predictable than Human opponents in the main, but you can probably get out numbered more easily with the AI. In both cases you need to identify the threats, and deal with them appropriately. Retreat/Egress is a perfectly valid option in combat and while a human opponent may show some restraint against a lesser opponent the AI will almost certainly not. Humans can also make tactical errors that the AI may not, and visa-versa to at least some degree. Build differences may also be a consideration, though at least some of the combat metas used by at least some human players are universally OP.

In ED, I have found the AI to use an apparent mix of gimballed, turreted, and fixed weapons as well as missiles. Most of the human meta-builds I have come across in the forums tend to rely on fixed/gimballed weapons and while some use missiles they do not seem to be as widely used. The key point is - if you make the wrong assumptions about the opponent's relative capabilities (whether human or AI) then you will almost certainly get stung (unless you use certain OP metas) - this applies to combat universally.

 

[gribley]

pvp is almost entirely plasma, rail-guns and bi-weave shields on FDl's or FAS's.
what you call an OP meta is just the most effective way to fight. there are definitely variations in it. some people prefer efficient, some prefer focused plasma, but as a general rule if you don't use the meta you be less effective. not necessary useless, or even bad, but you will likely have a lower possible DPS or you will otherwise damage your chances of success.

 

[John Xenir]

I've always sucked at PvP. I'm a crap pilot, what can I say

That said, there was a game where I really enjoyed PvP. Freelancer: Discovery RP fan mod server.
The difference between it and Elite is that Freelancer: Discovery role-play server had rules governing engagement.
You couldn't just show and blast everyone up if you had no in-RP reason.
Also, the ships were created to the paper-rock-scissors mechanic so yeah, your bomber could've taken down that battleship, but... what's that on the horizon? A gunboat? Oh, you'll have your bottom handed over to you soon enough, sunshine.

This made PvP a meaningful experience and was the whole package.
In Elite, not so much: it's just do whatever the hell you like. You can argue your right to play the game the way you want, and I won't deny you that right. But the fact is such anarchy resulted in people withdrawing to SOLO/PRIVATE GROUPS and there's no denying that.

 

[Mohrgan]

pvp is almost entirely plasma, rail-guns and bi-weave shields on FDl's or FAS's.
what you call an OP meta is just the most effective way to fight. there are definitely variations in it. some people prefer efficient, some prefer focused plasma, but as a general rule if you don't use the meta you be less effective. not necessary useless, or even bad, but you will likely have a lower possible DPS or you will otherwise damage your chances of success.

For those of us that see more to do in E|D than following the PvP Meta, we'd rather be prepared to enjoy the game's content, than be the content. I know my FAS with 32 units of cargo, and a Disco/SRV (depending) would never be a match for a Meta FAS. So. I leave the field to those want to limit themselves to combat only. That's ok with me. A problem arises when someone else insists I am doing something wrong. We all just need to accept each other, and play our own games.

 

[Mohrgan]

I've always sucked at PvP. I'm a crap pilot, what can I say

That said, there was a game where I really enjoyed PvP. Freelancer: Discovery RP fan mod server.
The difference between it and Elite is that Freelancer: Discovery role-play server had rules governing engagement.
You couldn't just show and blast everyone up if you had no in-RP reason.
Also, the ships were created to the paper-rock-scissors mechanic so yeah, your bomber could've taken down that battleship, but... what's that on the horizon? A gunboat? Oh, you'll have your bottom handed over to you soon enough, sunshine.

This made PvP a meaningful experience and was the whole package.
In Elite, not so much: it's just do whatever the hell you like. You can argue your right to play the game the way you want, and I won't deny you that right. But the fact is such anarchy resulted in people withdrawing to SOLO/PRIVATE GROUPS and there's no denying that.

I am not denying that many players have chosen to use Solo, or joined a PG. I certainly did. But, there is nothing wrong with that. The Modes were included to offer a solution to those that wouldn't/don't like the environment in open. We all just have to stop worrying about what the other guy is doing. Take care of what you are doing, and the rest will fall into place.

 

[gribley]

For those of us that see more to do in E|D than following the PvP Meta, we'd rather be prepared to enjoy the game's content, than be the content. I know my FAS with 32 units of cargo, and a Disco/SRV (depending) would never be a match for a Meta FAS. So. I leave the field to those want to limit themselves to combat only. That's ok with me. A problem arises when someone else insists I am doing something wrong. We all just need to accept each other, and play our own games.

that's why i own lots of ships. asp for transport, python for missions, conda for module movement, T10 for module storage, corvette for PvE and meta FDL and meta FAS for PvP and a bunch more just to play around with.
and yeah, do your own thing, i spent 300 hours in solo as a newb. play your own way, i will however stand on the point that if you are manipulating a player-groups BGS or engaging in power play activity its exceptionally bad form to do it outside of open.

 

[Mohrgan]

that's why i own lots of ships. asp for transport, python for missions, conda for module movement, T10 for module storage, corvette for PvE and meta FDL and meta FAS for PvP and a bunch more just to play around with.
and yeah, do your own thing, i spent 300 hours in solo as a newb. play your own way, i will however stand on the point that if you are manipulating a player-groups BGS or engaging in power play activity its exceptionally bad form to do it outside of open.

Your qualifications here are more supportable, and respectful. I'm down with that. The Player Group BGS stuff I can see to a degree, but you'll understand that a guy in Solo can't do any more damage to a group than a guy in open can. Especially when the counter is to do other BGS stuffs. Chasing around looking for an enemy is less profitable for a BGS Group, than filling those buckets.

When I was in a PG, we tried to have players that worked in every mode. The PvP guys, certainly the majority, did patrols and that stuff. While those in other modes worked to strengthen the Group's BGS Faction. It's just a matter of using the game to it's fullest. Sort of like adapting to a Meta. Dogma concerning Modes is really a restriction. But, I'm ok with that. Let's all be ok with how others see, and play, the game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

play your own way, i will however stand on the point that if you are manipulating a player-groups BGS or engaging in power play activity its exceptionally bad form to do it outside of open.

Playing your own way means just that - there is no requirement whatsoever to engage in direct PvP in this game. There is, however, no opt-out from indirect PvP through the BGS - Frontier's desired game experience for all players (i.e. not just those that like to engage in direct PvP with other players) is that each player both affects and experiences the economic and political aspects of the galaxy.

That players that prefer direct PvP want all opponents to engage in that play-style is obvious. Frontier, however, consciously chose to offer the three game modes to allow all players to choose how they wish to play - while every player affects the single shared galaxy state.

 

[gribley]

Your qualifications here are more supportable, and respectful. I'm down with that. The Player Group BGS stuff I can see to a degree, but you'll understand that a guy in Solo can't do any more damage to a group than a guy in open can. Especially when the counter is to do other BGS stuffs. Chasing around looking for an enemy is less profitable for a BGS Group, than filling those buckets.

When I was in a PG, we tried to have players that worked in every mode. The PvP guys, certainly the majority, did patrols and that stuff. While those in other modes worked to strengthen the Group's BGS Faction. It's just a matter of using the game to it's fullest. Sort of like adapting to a Meta. Dogma concerning Modes is really a restriction. But, I'm ok with that. Let's all be ok with how others see, and play, the game.

a guy in solo can do immensely more damage than the guy in open.
the guy in open needs to regularly cash in merits in case he gets killed by the other powers members who will likely be hunting him. he will often need to outfit his ship with different shields, often prismatic over BI-weave again limiting his time in system before he needs to go and cash in his merits or restock his SCB's.

doing PP in solo is a scumbag move because it has literally no way to disrupt your activities except by out grinding them. and the utter worst of the worst are the ones who exploit the fair play of their opponents who operate loud and proud in open by doing all their merit farming/fortifying/preparation in solo while they operate in open with PvP wings attacking their opponents who are doing the grind in open to further disrupt them.