Deleted member 110222
D
I do agree. For all the arguments of "immersion"... Yeah. This really flies in the proverbial face.
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I do agree. For all the arguments of "immersion"... Yeah. This really flies in the proverbial face.
3.0 is way better when it comes to level playing field between combat ships. The difference between combat and multi role may have grown even bigger. The unbearable length of engagements have gotten ever worse.
The fact that you have to organize leagues to have interesting PvP, just shows that there are some gaps in the game design.
I still hope that one day will see something PvP related that makes me think, 'that's something I want to do'.
Not quite there yet.
I find a few recurring themes in this thread that seem to bear no scrutiny, even against widely known and, with respect, rather obvious facts.
The three themes that appear to occur most frequently and yet are most easily disproved are that PvP-ers :
(A) Lack skill but triumph due to unfair numbers advantage, and/or
(B) Lack skill but triumph due to unfair outfitting advantage
and that
(3) PvP involves too much risk of loss.
The first two can be answered in two words, "PvP League".
Under the completely fair conditions of the three PvP Leagues it was proven beyond doubt that the most renowned PvP groups owe their profiles to the skill of their best pilots. In particular, it could not have been clearer that anyone else stood absolutely no chance. Furthermore it was clear that there was a cadence, repeatable and predictable, amongst the outcomes of less renowned groups when pitted against each other.
Season 3 threw matters into the greatest clarity because the format was widened to include much greater numbers than before. Because of the way the play-off sequence worked, we were able to see the mid-grade PvP groups absolutely slaughter the inexperienced groups, only in turn to be slaughtered themselves by the best of the best. The average-level PvP groups typically won to 0 defeats against the newcomers, then lost to 0 victories against the likes of SDC and AA.
Put another way:
Top-tier PvP group = better pilots than average PvP group, whom under fair conditions they will probably defeat without loss
Average PvP group = better pilots than entry-level group, whom under fair conditions they will probably defeat without loss
Entry-level group = still were willing and able to step up to the plate, and should not be underestimated by mere vocal spectators
(For those unaware, Seasons 1 and 2 of the PvP League were fought without Engineering, and Season 3 was fought with only one grade 1 engineered module per ship.)
If that is not clear proof of consistently replicable outcome by skill level, could somebody please tell me what further proof would be required?
Heh. If any further proof is needed, take a look at every single vid ever generated in any unlocked Beta (where anyone can make anything quickly, then go looking for a fight in their god-ship of choice in supercruise). Do we see the PvP big names floundering and dying in the - for once - withering fire of 'fair' conditions? No, we see business, i.e. wreckage, as normal. Do we see a reddit thread - "Hey, everyone, I'm new to PvP, and I just absolutely handed it to [insert big name of choice] in Beta? Such threads are curiously absent, aren't they?
Turning then to "too much risk of loss"...
Most PvP-ers rebuy only every several months and many less than annually. To re-grind creds for a rebuy takes less than 10% of the time to engineer up a decent module.
Risk of what?
I mean, unless someone is actually going out to look for a fight whilst purposefully carrying six months of precious exploration data with them ... what is this risk?
The three themes that appear to occur most frequently and yet are most easily disproved are that PvP-ers :
(A) Lack skill but triumph due to unfair numbers advantage, and/or
(B) Lack skill but triumph due to unfair outfitting advantage
and that
(3) PvP involves too much risk of loss.
The first two can be answered in two words, "PvP League".
Under the completely fair conditions of the three PvP Leagues it was proven beyond doubt that the most renowned PvP groups owe their profiles to the skill of their best pilots. In particular, it could not have been clearer that anyone else stood absolutely no chance. Furthermore it was clear that there was a cadence, repeatable and predictable, amongst the outcomes of less renowned groups when pitted against each other.
Season 3 threw matters into the greatest clarity because the format was widened to include much greater numbers than before. Because of the way the play-off sequence worked, we were able to see the mid-grade PvP groups absolutely slaughter the inexperienced groups, only in turn to be slaughtered themselves by the best of the best. The average-level PvP groups typically won to 0 defeats against the newcomers, then lost to 0 victories against the likes of SDC and AA.
Put another way:
Top-tier PvP group = better pilots than average PvP group, whom under fair conditions they will probably defeat without loss
Average PvP group = better pilots than entry-level group, whom under fair conditions they will probably defeat without loss
Entry-level group = still were willing and able to step up to the plate, and should not be underestimated by mere vocal spectators
(For those unaware, Seasons 1 and 2 of the PvP League were fought without Engineering, and Season 3 was fought with only one grade 1 engineered module per ship.)
If that is not clear proof of consistently replicable outcome by skill level, could somebody please tell me what further proof would be required?
Heh. If any further proof is needed, take a look at every single vid ever generated in any unlocked Beta (where anyone can make anything quickly, then go looking for a fight in their god-ship of choice in supercruise). Do we see the PvP big names floundering and dying in the - for once - withering fire of 'fair' conditions? No, we see business, i.e. wreckage, as normal. Do we see a reddit thread - "Hey, everyone, I'm new to PvP, and I just absolutely handed it to [insert big name of choice] in Beta? Such threads are curiously absent, aren't they?
Turning then to "too much risk of loss"...
Most PvP-ers rebuy only every several months and many less than annually. To re-grind creds for a rebuy takes less than 10% of the time to engineer up a decent module.
Risk of what?
I mean, unless someone is actually going out to look for a fight whilst purposefully carrying six months of precious exploration data with them ... what is this risk?
None of that referred to the increases I was referring to.
Look I get it you think now that there's a hard cap it'll fix things - but it won't. It's discouraged me now that I know it's even easier for people to be fully engineers it's a hard guarantee that every PvP ship I encounter will be max G5 engineered - that's just ridiculous and stupid. There'll be no variety in it
I'm MUCH happier playing against NPCs where there'll be actual variety and the ships can be matched by the game to me and my ship. I will not be forced to also grind and jump through the hoops to play.
This is a rod PvPers have unwittingly made for their own backs - I want to play my way not your way. So bye bye
I'll just not take part.Exactly! The current generation of kids think that PvP = "kill whoever I want, whenever I want and this is PvP". No. That's called Ganking and griefing.
The Replicated Man
T
Amen to that brother!
Amen. Waiting for the "salt queens" to join and ridicule that without realizing how broken that "pain" world is...
Tiny_Rick
Banned
Horsesḧit, my friend, at least on PS4; we absolutely LOVE pvp on that platform, it's a way of life.
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So, I wonder then, why when a misguided poster comes to the forums to complain of that kind of behavior, the PvP voices on the forums shout them down as a complainer? That sort of reaction just leads people to believe that is what to expect from PvP. By dogmatically defending PvP, you (not anyone in particular) just give ammo to those that rail against PvP.
If from the start the PvP community wrote, here on the forums and elsewhere, that the ganked and complaining player was right, and that the perpetrator had broken the unwritten rules of conduct, maybe the notion of PvP wouldn't have been spoiled in E|D.
If from the start the PvP community wrote, here on the forums and elsewhere, that the ganked and complaining player was right, and that the perpetrator had broken the unwritten rules of conduct, maybe the notion of PvP wouldn't have been spoiled in E|D.
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Powderpanic
Banned
A victim is always going to be a victim, if they have that mentality.
There is no code of conduct in PVP, just a rule set that everyone personally makes up and everyone defends as correct.
I have no issue killing a noob in a Sidewinder or a seasoned pro in a Cutter, because I know it is all part of the game.
The people I am sending to rebuy, choose to be there with full knowledge of what the game is about.
If they didn't, they should have researched the game better or learned to Git Gud, before venturing into Open.
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And we're back around the cycle.
"We're not unpleasant" *acts unpleasantly* - repeat as necessary.
Lol.
"We're not unpleasant" *acts unpleasantly* - repeat as necessary.
Lol.
Completely expected. "Knee Jerk" executed. Bravo.
P.S. Tell that to the crybabies who shame(d) players for using the RailDLance, Heat Meta, and currently HY Cannon. Or, more recently when PvPers started calling each other out for High Waking. Really, High waking.
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Powderpanic
Banned
My personal rule set is better than your personal rule set.
[video=youtube;B3EzRAgjo_s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EzRAgjo_s[/video]
Both 'Knees". Do I win a prize?
True dat.
"This forum is so mean to PvPers!" [sad]
"All the nasty PvE mods hates us" [sad]
"Aside from the fact that every update is about combat, the updates never have PvP content" [sad]
"They be influencing my faction's influence from other modes where I can't shoot them" [sad]
"Game allows me to shoot anything that moves, but ..... high waking's not fair" [sad]
Signed, the PvP Special Victims Unit.
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Yep, almost every game I play is PvP, except for ED - there's just better things to do, and ganking /= PvP. I'm still holding out for the Thargoids to become like the fortnite island storm for EDs bubble.
PS @AA ping us, we'll get you winning on fortnite.
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@Truesilver, what you say is true, sure but you're out of the context of this discussion.
We're not discussing PvP leagues, we're discussing Open. What you say is true but pointless and irrelevant to this thread
What people mean when they say PvP in Open needs no skill is due to the fact that the bully always goes on a top end ship, fully engineered and built for ganking/griefing and they pick on lesser ships, with little to no defenses, little to no weapons, for no rhyme nor reason other than reaping salt.
That is the truth.
It's also the truth that most of the so-called PvPers with "above average skill" would also die in the same situation, meaning: they's also "get rekted" and would be whispered a "git gud" if they were caught in the open on a trading ship against a wing of fully engineered FDLs/Corvettes .
Their skill as a pilot wouldn't count for much with those odds.
Ask anyone to get on a regular equipped ship, or a trading ship, or an exploring ship and then get them to be ganked on by FDLs with a PvP loadout, fully engineered and let's see how they would fare...they'd die as everybody else.
THAT is the issue.
Open's "PvP" is not PvP, it's griefing, it's bullying, it's seal-clubbing. There's no other definition for what those players do: knowingly and deliberately picking on lesser ships, poorly equipped whilst on a fully engineered wing of FDLs/Corvetttes.
True competitive PvPers should equally find this behaviour abhorrent and revolting.
Why FD doesn't ban them from open is beyond me. I suppose they enjoy losing customers and lesser revenue.
We're not discussing PvP leagues, we're discussing Open. What you say is true but pointless and irrelevant to this thread
What people mean when they say PvP in Open needs no skill is due to the fact that the bully always goes on a top end ship, fully engineered and built for ganking/griefing and they pick on lesser ships, with little to no defenses, little to no weapons, for no rhyme nor reason other than reaping salt.
That is the truth.
It's also the truth that most of the so-called PvPers with "above average skill" would also die in the same situation, meaning: they's also "get rekted" and would be whispered a "git gud" if they were caught in the open on a trading ship against a wing of fully engineered FDLs/Corvettes .
Their skill as a pilot wouldn't count for much with those odds.
Ask anyone to get on a regular equipped ship, or a trading ship, or an exploring ship and then get them to be ganked on by FDLs with a PvP loadout, fully engineered and let's see how they would fare...they'd die as everybody else.
THAT is the issue.
Open's "PvP" is not PvP, it's griefing, it's bullying, it's seal-clubbing. There's no other definition for what those players do: knowingly and deliberately picking on lesser ships, poorly equipped whilst on a fully engineered wing of FDLs/Corvetttes.
True competitive PvPers should equally find this behaviour abhorrent and revolting.
Why FD doesn't ban them from open is beyond me. I suppose they enjoy losing customers and lesser revenue.
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The Replicated Man
T
You hit the nail on the head with this post
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