Why side with Torval in a slave revolt? The cruisers are more valuable to kill

Mmm, I sort of think that people who take fictional worlds too serious, and without strict cut: "this is fiction", "this is not fiction", have tad bunch of mental problems... it's like... an actor who can't make a difference between act and reality.

Just saying.

In a game as immersing as this, I think it's a waste of my time not to play with a governing philosophy. I can and should think about how games should be played. I don't like griefers, I think they suck. I want them to die, because they intentionally inflict misery on other human beings. I hunt them for bounties and for funsies whenever I get the chance. Sure there's a thrill to fighting other players, but there are plenty of better places to do that, and preying on weaker ships is just ish.

So for that reason I never grief, and I don't think others should. In a game that people spend as many hours in as real life, it might as well be that way. I mean you just spent 8 hours grinding, only to have all that time taken away from you in one ish instant? That sucks. So I already have a philosophy about how to treat other human players, it's not a stretch to imagine that my character would also have other philosophies as well.

If you've never actually come from an acting background or a hardcore RP like D&D, you wouldn't understand how much fun it actually is to play a character role out in-game. But of course, most people play a big dumb fighter, with no interesting RP value at all, and it's a waste of their time. Rolling dice for 12 hours straight is not going to happen, you have to act and engage with the world. Given that this is also a giant sand-box, thinking about who you are as a character is going to be a boon to your playing enjoyment.

As players, especially once you get really good and have really big guns to employ at your leisure, your actions change the dynamics of the game for the rest of the ED community. Essentially you're already in RP mode. So don't waste your own time, get your character a governing philosophy. It makes gameplay more interesting, and it makes your actions more consistent.

As a character, I don't envision myself a blindly loyal follower who has the convenience to just accept the Empire out of hand. I even appreciate Empire society in other forms. I think their quest for honor is noble. It's called nuance. It's fascinating, adults use it to make life more spicy. But if I think that Empire culture could improve, and the whole society could get better (if they weren't dirty slavers), they'd be more interesting than the Federation for sure. I'd definitely support them through and through.

So, I dare you. Try your hand at actually RPing. In this game it will accumulate value over time. Consistency can be your friend.
 
The Empire clearly has rules and regulations for this sort of thing, and becoming an imperial slave to pay off a debt is an honourable action indeed - it is accepting ones responsibility as an Imperial Citizen to pay back what one owes! Such an action and confrontation is leagues beyond the sort of faux freedom that an indebted federal serf endures as they pile debt after debt atop debt with little inclination to pay their society back, or even the slightest inclination of what their foolishness has cost the federation. Some of their more enlightened citizens may come to the cynical realisation that they were in fact, born into a most uncouth and binding form of slavery, however this fact remains:

To be free of Imperial Slavery, one must serve the requisite time to fulfill ones obligations.

To be free of Federal Slavery, one must fall between my crosshairs with a bounty upon ones head.

Now then, which is the fairer society? Which is the more honest society? Which is the more, honourable, society?
 
So, I dare you. Try your hand at actually RPing. In this game it will accumulate value over time. Consistency can be your friend.

Oh, I'm no stranger to RP - GURPS, D&D, AD&D - done it more than gaming in front of PC.

Maybe I'm just paying half attention, but at some point in the thread it seemed the whole issue derailed to real life analogues and such junk.
 
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The Empire clearly has rules and regulations for this sort of thing, and becoming an imperial slave to pay off a debt is an honourable action indeed - it is accepting ones responsibility as an Imperial Citizen to pay back what one owes!

If those slaves are so honourable, and the Empire treats them so well, why do we have slave uprisings on our hands?
 
If those slaves are so honourable, and the Empire treats them so well, why do we have slave uprisings on our hands?

This was answered and you ignored it. Not worth answering again when you are going to just ignore again.

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So, I dare you. Try your hand at actually RPing. In this game it will accumulate value over time. Consistency can be your friend.

I do. In Elite. Hence supporting the empire. Would I support slavering in real life? Nope. But I am PLAYING a ROLE. You know ROLE PLAYING. Which means if my character would do it, then in this game he will do it and he would.
 
If those slaves are so honourable, and the Empire treats them so well, why do we have slave uprisings on our hands?

I did not say the Empire treated them well, nor that they deserved good treatment. They certainly do not deserve death, but let's not forget why they have become slaves in the first place. As for the uprising; I can think of no greater misdeed than to accept responsibility on the one hand while thrusting a dagger with the other!
 
Oh, I'm no stranger to RP - GURPS, D&D, AD&D - done it more than gaming in front of PC.

Maybe I'm just paying half attention, but at some point in the thread it seemed the whole issue derailed to real life analogues and such junk.

No, my point is that real life analogues make for a way better game, and I've been basically making that point the whole time. The really fantastic MMOs had really interactive P2P elements, like their crafting systems, and trades. I've seen that depending on the culture of the game, the outcome of the game for the players will be different. I operate with a governing philosophy because by being nice, and not griefing, I help other people's enjoyment. That makes people nicer. And less trigger happy. If most of the time you encounter players, you have a friendly chat while fuel scooping, that makes for a really fantastic game. On the other hand, if griefing gets out of control, people are ready to shoot first, or attack first, no matter what.

So yes, just like as in real life, our actions will impact the game. As such applying real life analogues is appropriate, if at least with respect to other players.
 
So yes, just like as in real life, our actions will impact the game. As such applying real life analogues is appropriate, if at least with respect to other players.

No it isn't. I rarely, if ever, RP a character who has the same ethics or sense of morality that I do in real life, there for real life analogues are appropriate, but not in respect to the players, instead in respect to the characters. If you cannot separate the two... you honestly are not a true role player.
 
This was answered and you ignored it. Not worth answering again when you are going to just ignore again.

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I do. In Elite. Hence supporting the empire. Would I support slavering in real life? Nope. But I am PLAYING a ROLE. You know ROLE PLAYING. Which means if my character would do it, then in this game he will do it and he would.



There you go, and that's a fantastic reason for acting the way you do. I personally wouldn't RP a slaver, but I am interested in the Empire and its trajectory. As long as people are consistent and think in terms of RP, the game will be a lot of fun for them and for everyone else.
 
Imperial Slaves are actually based on the Roman system of slavery, where slaves on one hand could be used to display the owner's wealth and power, and also a way for the lower classes to actually climb the social ladder by selling themselves into slavery (without being in debt in the first place, of course it was also used to erase debt). Technically it was illegal for Roman citizens to sell themselves into slavery, but it often happened because it was the easiest way to get yourself a very influential man into your social network (for all those ambitious nobodies who wanted to be somebody).

Masters have a duty to keep their slaves clean, well fed and generally cared for. Think about a really nice piano, if you own it, you wouldn't destroy it just for the hell of it, would you? Most of the time, slaves served for around five to ten years doing menial labour + being their master's lovers (practically all Roman citizens were bisexual), and afterwards the master sponsors the slave for full Roman citizenship. The former masters often help their slaves get into business, as it was a badge of honour to turn a 'barbarian' into a civilized Roman, (as this was widely accepted as Rome's true destiny, to civilize the world). The more successful the former slave was, the more social capital the master gained.

Roman slavery has very little to do with what most modern people imagine to be 'slavery'. In fact, student loans and things like that could be considered slightly worse than Roman slavery, as there is a possibility that you would never be able to repay it if you get down on your luck. Of course, you would still find the masters who beat slaves for fun, since they are supposedly just 'tools that talk', but it would reflect very badly on that master, and he/her would quickly lose his prestige, which means that it is really unlikely for them to keep having the power and wealth to actually own slaves.

And before you point out the slave rebellions in ancient Rome, these were all initiated by former Roman soldiers themselves, who were forced into slavery because they committed the greatest crime in ancient Rome, which was desertion. Many later Roman emperors were actually descended from slaves who were freed and made into citizens via patronage.
 
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I personally wouldn't RP a slaver, but I am interested in the Empire and its trajectory. As long as people are consistent and think in terms of RP, the game will be a lot of fun for them and for everyone else.

Putting oneself into shoes of something you might hate in reality is one way to think out of the box and to put things into perspective. And have to say, some of the most enjoyable RP sessions stem from finding out that a player character is actually the bad guy and not the goons GM takes part as. In best cases, to come to such realization will take a long time - whole year's campaign might pass.
 
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No it isn't. I rarely, if ever, RP a character who has the same ethics or sense of morality that I do in real life, there for real life analogues are appropriate, but not in respect to the players, instead in respect to the characters. If you cannot separate the two... you honestly are not a true role player.

Well you've got to be a pretty masterful RPer to do a decent job with that. Because it also takes a story to develop a character. I recognize as in real life that being a fair and decent person will get me farther than being a jerk will. If that understanding makes sense in the real world, it also makes sense in the game. My character in game is different than who I am in real life, but I can still understand the same things and act accordingly. I think that's just a matter of intelligence. Lots of people RP out some dumb psycho, fine, I get the trope. But most of the time they do a god awful job at it because it has no real consistency. No real thought behind it. Most RPers who play an Evil character do a terrible job. It's always "backstab the party, poison the well, murder the innocents, get everyone into trouble." Pfft, I've seen that a million times. Give me something with some substance, something truly insidious. How about an evil secret plot? How about something like that? A grand heist? Anything.

If "I can haz be utterly loyal Empire lackey" is a good enough RP for someone, go for it. But at least make the story really interesting, really dig into the philosophy of it, otherwise it's just "Oh, another mindless recruit trope. Great."

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Imperial Slaves are actually based on the Roman system of slavery, where slaves on one hand could be used to display the owner's wealth and power, and also a way for the lower classes to actually climb the social ladder by selling themselves into slavery (without being in debt in the first place, of course it was also used to erase debt). Technically it was illegal for Roman citizens to sell themselves into slavery, but it often happened because it was the easiest way to get yourself a very influential man into your social network (for all those ambitious nobodies who wanted to be somebody).

Masters have a duty to keep their slaves clean, well fed and generally cared for. Think about a really nice piano, if you own it, you wouldn't destroy it just for the hell of it, would you? Most of the time, slaves served for around five to ten years doing menial labour + being their master's lovers (practically all Roman citizens were bisexual), and afterwards the master sponsors the slave for full Roman citizenship. The former masters often help their slaves get into business, as it was a badge of honour to turn a 'barbarian' into a civilized Roman, (as this was widely accepted as Rome's true destiny, to civilize the world). The more successful the former slave was, the more social capital the master gained.

Roman slavery has very little to do with what most modern people imagine to be 'slavery'. In fact, student loans and things like that could be considered slightly worse than Roman slavery, as there is a possibility that you would never be able to repay it if you get down on your luck. Of course, you would still find the masters who beat slaves for fun, since they are supposedly just 'tools that talk', but it would reflect very badly on that master, and he/her would quickly lose his prestige, which means that it is really unlikely for them to keep having the power and wealth to actually own slaves.

And before you point out the slave rebellions in ancient Rome, these were all initiated by former Roman soldiers themselves, who were forced into slavery because they committed the greatest crime in ancient Rome, which was desertion. Many later Roman emperors were actually descended from slaves who were freed and made into citizens via patronage.



Good post, thank you
 
Well you've got to be a pretty masterful RPer to do a decent job with that. Because it also takes a story to develop a character. I recognize as in real life that being a fair and decent person will get me farther than being a jerk will. If that understanding makes sense in the real world, it also makes sense in the game. My character in game is different than who I am in real life, but I can still understand the same things and act accordingly.

Then morally it's not very different is it? Also, you don't have to be a masterful RPer to do a decent job at it, most RPers I have been with that do RP outside of MMO's have no trouble with it.

I think that's just a matter of intelligence. Lots of people RP out some dumb psycho, fine, I get the trope. But most of the time they do a god awful job at it because it has no real consistency. No real thought behind it. Most RPers who play an Evil character do a terrible job. It's always "backstab the party, poison the well, murder the innocents, get everyone into trouble." Pfft, I've seen that a million times. Give me something with some substance, something truly insidious. How about an evil secret plot? How about something like that? A grand heist? Anything.

You've been RPing with some real bad RPers then. I had a party were someone ended up betraying the party. He never actually revealed it though before he made his move, which made perfect sense in the circumstances. He was offered a deal to basically save himself, make himself rich, but at the expense of the party. He took it. It also made sense that he did, because for the whole campaign he had always looked out for himself first, only grudgingly shared with the other party members, anything he found on bodies he would keep himself and not tell others about, so there was a pattern of behavior to it. So when it came up, we all groaned because we knew he would take the deal. Of course, the rest of the party escaped and hunted him down and it made for a great role play. By the way, the person who plays the character was completely opposite in real life, one of the most helpful kind people you could know.

I'v played someone who had a very twisted sense of morals. He had them, but almost no one else would recognize them as such. It ended up turning the party against him because he refused to be budged from them. He ended up fighting the rest of the party. I was told by the other players it was some of the most fun they had had in a campaign. His moral system looked nothing like my own as a person.


If "I can haz be utterly loyal Empire lackey" is a good enough RP for someone, go for it. But at least make the story really interesting, really dig into the philosophy of it, otherwise it's just "Oh, another mindless recruit trope. Great."

I wonder if you actually dig into the philosophy of it, because from what it sounds like you have a very hard time separating yourself from your character. You say your character recognizes the same values you do. Your line: "I recognize as in real life that being a fair and decent person will get me farther than being a jerk will. If that understanding makes sense in the real world, it also makes sense in the game" says it all. The thing is, a well played character can completely NOT recognize that and not end up being a horrible trope filled character. Just like how some people don't think that way in real life (and honestly, being a fair and decent person doesn't get you very far in real life). Not everyone in real life thinks the same way you do, so every character in a game world shouldn't either. Whether it be yours or someone else s.
 
Then morally it's not very different is it? Also, you don't have to be a masterful RPer to do a decent job at it, most RPers I have been with that do RP outside of MMO's have no trouble with it.



You've been RPing with some real bad RPers then. I had a party were someone ended up betraying the party. He never actually revealed it though before he made his move, which made perfect sense in the circumstances. He was offered a deal to basically save himself, make himself rich, but at the expense of the party. He took it. It also made sense that he did, because for the whole campaign he had always looked out for himself first, only grudgingly shared with the other party members, anything he found on bodies he would keep himself and not tell others about, so there was a pattern of behavior to it. So when it came up, we all groaned because we knew he would take the deal. Of course, the rest of the party escaped and hunted him down and it made for a great role play. By the way, the person who plays the character was completely opposite in real life, one of the most helpful kind people you could know.

I'v played someone who had a very twisted sense of morals. He had them, but almost no one else would recognize them as such. It ended up turning the party against him because he refused to be budged from them. He ended up fighting the rest of the party. I was told by the other players it was some of the most fun they had had in a campaign. His moral system looked nothing like my own as a person.




I wonder if you actually dig into the philosophy of it, because from what it sounds like you have a very hard time separating yourself from your character. You say your character recognizes the same values you do. Your line: "I recognize as in real life that being a fair and decent person will get me farther than being a jerk will. If that understanding makes sense in the real world, it also makes sense in the game" says it all. The thing is, a well played character can completely NOT recognize that and not end up being a horrible trope filled character. Just like how some people don't think that way in real life (and honestly, being a fair and decent person doesn't get you very far in real life). Not everyone in real life thinks the same way you do, so every character in a game world shouldn't either. Whether it be yours or someone else s.


The fact that at the upper echelons people do some dirty, rotten things, still belays the important fact that everyone needs friends. No raging jerk can come into power without other people to support them. Misanthropes don't get ahead. Maybe in some places they do, but in the vast majority of the world, being a nice but self-capable person will end up getting you a better life. Because of business ties, new ideas, all kinds of things. We're a communitarian, tribal species. All of our advantages and tendencies, forged by evolution, and specially adapted to suit our particular circumstances. Our vastly powerful vocal centers. Opposable thumbs. Walking upright. Best throwing arm in the Mammal world. Incredibly elaborate social understanding. An absolute dependency on other human beings for survival. An 18 year childhood. The myth that being a jerk will get you ahead ignores reality. Most misanthropes are left alone and friendless after awhile. Bad reputations and people don't go near them. They sit in a pit of their own nastiness, it's really just pathetic. If you screw over the people close to you, you will suffer. Period. Do a bad job at work? Get fired. Cheat on your wife? Divorce. Cheat with somebody else's wife? Get shot. Steal from people close to you? They push you away and tell everyone you know. Jerks only get ahead as far as they have friends. They might still be jerks, but if they have a huge pile of money or a bunch of guns, they're basically insulated from the ramifications of their bad behavior, at least temporarily. If that's what you mean, well, I mostly agree with you. But plenty of people do it by being consistent, honest, and with integrity, and they get far ahead.

People like reliable people. Good people get ahead by virtue of being appreciated and valued. People think well of them, and they put their opinions and thoughts into consideration. Nice people and reliable people have an open ear with people they've nurtured good relationships with.

If you look at a workplace where the employees are well appreciated and paid, they actually work harder and stay longer. Minimizing training costs, and maximizing profit margins. There is a whole lot of data on the subject, and it's absolutely true.

The real fact of it is, playing as a jerk (or a trope) to me is something I don't want to see. I want to see the best game environment that I can. Jerks suck, and I want them to suffer so that they can't profit from it. That requires players though to encourage that. I'm aiming to encourage good conduct, because I think it makes for a more enjoyable game for everyone. Myself included.

I've played evil characters before. Most of the time though it hurts your game. It alienates you, and there's always some backstabbing (even backstabbing the party or not sharing loot is a stupid trope, because it's completely overdone. It's the most common one. The evil character always just makes everyone else have a worse time, because they screw up and alienate themselves.) I've also played evil characters with a very interesting story, whose real motivations were as insurrectionists, or real, honest to god psychos. Once a hidden cult leader, that was fun. I've played it, tried it, it's not for me. Because it leads to fights, time wasting, and a lot of the time you just get killed off. As is appropriate.

But at this point I just don't play evil characters. And my characters definitely aren't saps. I'm usually able to out-think and predict what my GM was going to do, and I adjust accordingly. In D&D terms, I tended towards playing a high-intelligence rogue (either TWF or an Arcane trickster type) who was cold and ready to kill, but never an evil, malicious guy. Though definitely an assassin. Fantastic assassin. Best assassin I've ever played. I like an environment where I can out-think and surprise my opponents. I'm definitely well versed with the cloak and dagger.

As ED is a sandbox, I play with honor and integrity because that will create the environment for everyone else. Most player interactions should be positive. By doing that, others will feel comfortable to do the same, and then everyone, collectively has more fun. There's a big difference between getting player interdicted once in a while, and it happening all the time. It poisons the game for people, it ticks them off, and they act differently as a result. I can only prevent that by not being a jerk, and by hunting jerks.
 
Because the Imperials are not slavers in the sense you are thinking. Imperial Slaves are actually indentured servants (they work for someone for a set period to pay off their debt then are free), not true slaves.

Oh, and because. Imperial for life.

Long Live the Emperor.
All Hail Emperor Duval.

How come all the brain power in the Empire couldn't come up with a better name for them than "Slaves"?

and OP, if you have a bounty for slave trading on you, you're doing it wrong.
 
Torval's ultimate aim is to gain the throne and relax the strict imperial laws with regards to Imperial slaves, and make them more like slave slaves. Don't be fooled by her cheap rhetoric, she will bring destruction to a noble imperial tradition that is the last hope for many a citizen in dire straits. Patreus is a petty warmongering loanshark whose zero tax rate is bought with the blood of the civilians of governments foolish enough to buy his words and accept his deals, and the brave imperial pilots he is using as nothing more than legbreakers. Maintain the status quo, support Empress Arissa.
 
The fact that at the upper echelons people do some dirty, rotten things, still belays the important fact that everyone needs friends. No raging jerk can come into power without other people to support them. Misanthropes don't get ahead. Maybe in some places they do, but in the vast majority of the world, being a nice but self-capable person will end up getting you a better life. Because of business ties, new ideas, all kinds of things. We're a communitarian, tribal species. All of our advantages and tendencies, forged by evolution, and specially adapted to suit our particular circumstances. Our vastly powerful vocal centers. Opposable thumbs. Walking upright. Best throwing arm in the Mammal world. Incredibly elaborate social understanding. An absolute dependency on other human beings for survival. An 18 year childhood. The myth that being a jerk will get you ahead ignores reality. Most misanthropes are left alone and friendless after awhile. Bad reputations and people don't go near them. They sit in a pit of their own nastiness, it's really just pathetic. If you screw over the people close to you, you will suffer. Period. Do a bad job at work? Get fired. Cheat on your wife? Divorce. Cheat with somebody else's wife? Get shot. Steal from people close to you? They push you away and tell everyone you know. Jerks only get ahead as far as they have friends. They might still be jerks, but if they have a huge pile of money or a bunch of guns, they're basically insulated from the ramifications of their bad behavior, at least temporarily. If that's what you mean, well, I mostly agree with you. But plenty of people do it by being consistent, honest, and with integrity, and they get far ahead.

People like reliable people. Good people get ahead by virtue of being appreciated and valued. People think well of them, and they put their opinions and thoughts into consideration. Nice people and reliable people have an open ear with people they've nurtured good relationships with.

If you look at a workplace where the employees are well appreciated and paid, they actually work harder and stay longer. Minimizing training costs, and maximizing profit margins. There is a whole lot of data on the subject, and it's absolutely true.

The real fact of it is, playing as a jerk (or a trope) to me is something I don't want to see. I want to see the best game environment that I can. Jerks suck, and I want them to suffer so that they can't profit from it. That requires players though to encourage that. I'm aiming to encourage good conduct, because I think it makes for a more enjoyable game for everyone. Myself included.

I've played evil characters before. Most of the time though it hurts your game. It alienates you, and there's always some backstabbing (even backstabbing the party or not sharing loot is a stupid trope, because it's completely overdone. It's the most common one. The evil character always just makes everyone else have a worse time, because they screw up and alienate themselves.) I've also played evil characters with a very interesting story, whose real motivations were as insurrectionists, or real, honest to god psychos. Once a hidden cult leader, that was fun. I've played it, tried it, it's not for me. Because it leads to fights, time wasting, and a lot of the time you just get killed off. As is appropriate.

But at this point I just don't play evil characters. And my characters definitely aren't saps. I'm usually able to out-think and predict what my GM was going to do, and I adjust accordingly. In D&D terms, I tended towards playing a high-intelligence rogue (either TWF or an Arcane trickster type) who was cold and ready to kill, but never an evil, malicious guy. Though definitely an assassin. Fantastic assassin. Best assassin I've ever played. I like an environment where I can out-think and surprise my opponents. I'm definitely well versed with the cloak and dagger.

As ED is a sandbox, I play with honor and integrity because that will create the environment for everyone else. Most player interactions should be positive. By doing that, others will feel comfortable to do the same, and then everyone, collectively has more fun. There's a big difference between getting player interdicted once in a while, and it happening all the time. It poisons the game for people, it ticks them off, and they act differently as a result. I can only prevent that by not being a jerk, and by hunting jerks.

Ugh... TL;DR - each their own.
 
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