Why so much hate for the Engineers?

just logged back in to find this has become quite a civilised discussion! i would add that i am by no means totally sold on engineers. i find the roulette wheel thingy quite ridiculous frinstance and the levers little better. i do think that this was designed by boffs for boffs. and the late arrival of this all says to me that there was much going debate on behind the scenes and that this may be a whole lot better than other versions we might have been given. The thing says to me that it was crying out for a lead designer, but i dont think that FD has one in the sense that the big 'hollywood productions' have. Yes, a bit clunky and rough around the edges. but it is game code and is what we are going to get and it aint too bad and not as rubbish as many folks make out

one thing that i think has been put to bed in the past is that the change in the mod can be immediately shown and in a way that we can understand. the factors are hugely variable and a one size fits all solution is impractical and unrealistic. my level 5 FSD on my asp is 55ly and on my python is 32ly
 
You missed the point once again. I have no urge or need to personally attack you, so I have no idea why would you assume I did such a thing - I simply said that I compared to some others require my fun to challenge me and to provide skilled engagement which Engineers don't do. Engineers are much more a low level entertainment like the imaginary horse riding - that is all.

Nobody is calling or implying that somebody is smarter or more intelligent then rest, but I did compare, rather brutally, how big can be the differences in perception of fun. If anything I envy you for being able to enjoy ED Engineers as I really wish I could too.

I believe you just insulted Poy again !
 
Had my fill of engineers for now, to be honest. I was lucky enough to be able to use Felicity Farseer relatively quickly because I happened of have collected all the materials she need for level 4 over the previous few months of game play, and I was extemely lucky to get a very good level 4 roll for FSD range first time - my explorer Anaconda can now achieve 47ly fully laden. However, I've spent nearly a week trying to get the materials for some level 5 upgrade attempts, but without much success. Actuallly managed to get a chemical manipulator once, but for some reason by the time I got back to the Farseer base, it had disappeared. Since then, not a sausage, and the cost/benefit is no longer worth it - I'm off to do some exploring and maybe when I get back, engineers will be a little less frustrating.

I'm not saying that I want it to be easy, but I do want the RNG removed so that as long as I do a well defined, time consuming and/or difficult thing, I will definitely get the material item I'm after as a reward - blowing up ship after ship, scanning wake after wake and exploring planet after planet without finding anything I need is just not fun any more.
 
FYI, the man behind Freelancer is the same man behind Star Citizen. (Chris Roberts) Clearly, the visions between these two dudes, Braben and Chris. Are universes apart.
A large part of why I, personally, am waiting for Star Citizen and plan to permanently leave ED as soon as that game launches. If it's merely as good as Privateer/Freelancer with modern graphics I will go to that game in a heartbeat.

That, and the fact Star Citizen plans to support robust modding. I tend to find over twice the fun in games I can mod when compared with ones I can't.

BTW: the crummy ending in Freelancer might be due to Microsoft and Chris Roberts parting ways when Microsoft decided to rush the game to market. Seems like a lot of content, and even features, was cut.



This is not the Engineers fault though. They never ask you to do anything that is outside of the core gameplay. Ergo if you find it boring, then perhaps you find the core gameplay to be problematic.
The issue with Engineers is layering RNG atop RNG. Which means you are never sure how long the boring grind for engineered parts will last.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gambler. Quite the opposite, in real life I've never spent a single cent on bets or similar things, and I react badly enough to gambling that promotions offering me a random chance to win something actually drive me away.
 
A large part of why I, personally, am waiting for Star Citizen and plan to permanently leave ED as soon as that game launches.

Go buy a ship in SC, maybe it will make you feel better. Please don't deviate the topic to SC. You don't want that, believe me.
 
Simple answer to the above question - they are not fun. Let me elaborate.

All engineers are hidden/closed off behind brain cell killing mindless grinds. Why do I need to reach allied with Sirius Corp to gain access to Sirius to then gain access to the desired engineer? I've been killing Sirius Corp on sight. They are not allied with my Power or Empire. I have NO desire to help them, yet I have to in order to gain an access to engineer.... Or I have to fly somewhere to buy 200 gold and ferry it over for an engineer to gain access after I've already jumped through hoops to get their invite in the first place...

Problem isn't in the fact that the engineers ask us to do something, but that they ask us to do things that are boring and often go against our roles or how we "role" play in the game.

At this point it would be pointless going into the mats and their RNG nature or into the fact that we have No influence over the results of our RNG as making a minigame would be too hard..., It is completely pointless to go that far, because even getting the access to those so called Gods of RNG is boring to a point that a paid Gold farmer for Asian MMOs would probably cry while doing those tasks for others...

Most people like that idea of improving their ship, most love the fact that each build is now unique, but almost nobody likes the process, thus making the whole experience dull and highly unrewarding.

How Engineers could be fun?
Simple - their ranking, unlocking and engineering needs to be delivered through entertaining and and difficulty scaling content. It is clear that FD took a page out of MMOs when designing RNGeers - Collect materials, Unlock stages, RNG loot drops ect.... but they have missed the Fun Part... The content that makes the mats and unlocks fun to do. In ESO if I wanted a Set of Armour I had to "grind" a Dungeon for 10-15 runs and as a group we did it as many times as needed, but we had fun while doing it as the dungeon was hard, challenging and compelling with engaging story and even when we were very well synchronized and could complete it rather fast without dying too much it was still fun and we felt that we achieved something. No such luck in ED. Instead I get to grind painfully normal missions for a faction I've been killing on sight .....

Instead of asking for 200 gold - the engineer could ask as to investigate a wreck where some unknown technology is to be found. We could search through ship wreck (yes actually created and placed content rather then subjected to random spawns) and be attacked by pirates (Yes some prescripted and voiced missions won't harm this world :D ) - those in fast ships would be able to kite and carry on searching through this debry field and those who are large could engage or wing up until they find the right unknown technology - all this could be also voiced over in ideal world... After returning we get welcomed by the engineer and the unknown part is used in his upgrades. Micro Story arc like this would go a long way in the RNG world of ED... And when we collect the mats (that part could be improved too, but collecting materials is by default bit dull) we could then select the upgrade we desire and a mini game could be introduced to determine the effect - Wire arrangement and random puzzles in the style of Deus Ex and many other RPGs would be much better and more engaging then waiting for the roulette to end spinning...

I could go on and on, but the reason why people hate RNGeers isn't due to balancing (although balancing is very important too), but due to the boring grind they come packed with. Unless this is fixed RNGeers will receive a lot of hate from the community because those who RNGeer will be stronger then those who simply can't put up with the painful grind they introduce..

PS This RANT comes after a whole afternoon spent on ranking up Sirius Corp against my will, and also due to the fact that I have only 4 hours or so a week to play ED and the last thing I want is to spend it doing mind numbing content...

Please Frontier make this horror end and please introduce Real Content supporting the Engineers, so we can have fun upgrading our weapons or modules and not cry tears of utter boredom...

Any chance the mods could stick all these Engs. whining threads into one megathread and prevent the same whinge constantly kicking off thread after thread.
 
Yes, quite agree, but us not jumping in thread after thread with our same old responses would kill it stone dead n'est ce pas?

:)
 
Engineers ended my game.

Can't store materials that I've collected = makes me a target = constant interdictions

I'll be back eventually, but wings/powerplay/engineers/multi-crew/ship-launched fighters.....meh.

Still waiting for something really great for the lone-wolf playstyle. i thought passengers might fit the bill, but its just more delivery missions. Gave up hope eventually :(
 
Why so much hate for Engineers? Even though I have PB + LXP, I feel that add-ons should be optional, and not required to play ED. Because of FD's lack of vision on this point, Engineers has become necessary for those wishing to survive even basic encounters. Without them, certain careers are unbalanced. :)
 
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I'm going to say it's not the gathering materials, even the hard-to-find materials that is the issue, because I've never once had a problem finding the materials I need for the upgrades I want.
It's the Random aspect of it. It's the I-spent-the-time-gathering-these and what did I get? A 1% increase to what I want, and a 90% increase to the things I did not nature of Engineer upgrades.
It's the having to make multiple attempts for a single upgrade where the benefits are not outweighed by the offsets.
People do want "perfect rolls", and those are hard to come by unless everything is lined up just right.

If I took my rifle to a gunsmith and said "I'd like you to change out the magazine on this for one that holds more ammunition." and after working on it, it was returned weighing 20 more pounds, got three times hotter, had half the accuracy at 50 yards, and held only one more round I'd be more than just a little upset myself.

Likewise, if I took my car to a mechanic and said "Make it go faster." and when I got it back it used twice as much fuel per mile, had a racing stripe painted down it, the doors were welded shut, the frame has been replaced with lightweight tubes, a rear spoiler were installed and it only went 1 mile per hour faster, I'd be more than a little upset.

Then add to that, after voicing that I was not unhappy, these folks reworked what they had previously done, perhaps several times, charging me for their work each time, and it took dozens of attempts to produce results that were satisfactory, not only would I be questioning their competence, but my own as well for turning my equipment over to these people in the first place, and paying them for work I either did not want, or work that was clearly not up to par.

A rework of the upgrade system entirely would make Engineers far more useful, valuable, and painful.

IF, for example, I want a Grade 4 Frame Shift Drive upgrade, I can see that that upgrade has the following:

PRIMARY EFFECTS

MASS: 10% to 25%
INTEGRITY: -6% to -15%
POWER DRAW: 5% to 14%
OPTIMISED MASS: 11% to 31%

So a gain in mass of 10-25% (a drawback)
A decrease in integrity of -6 to -15% (a drawback)
An increase in power draw of 5-14% (a drawback)
And an increase of Optimized Mass of 11-31% (the benefit that increases my jump range, which is what I want).

Rather than simply having these values generated by a roll of the virtual dice, it would be much better if we actually had some input on how these were determined.
Rather than just showing us the Potential Outcomes and letting the sliders dance up and down the scales, let us grab the slider we want to modify, in this case, the Optimized Mass and move it.
As we move that slider, the drawback sliders could then move on their own. So if I pull Optimized Mass all the way to 31%, I'd expect to see a 25% Mass Increase, a loss of 15% integrity and an increase in Power Draw of 14%.

Perhaps I decide I can live with this, and tell the Engineer "Ok, do it".
At that point, Secondary Effects are randomly generated.
I come up with -8% Mass, +6% Integrity, -6% Power Draw and no special effects, because FSD's don't have those yet.

I Keep my 31% Optimized Mass, but my module mass ends up +17% heavier, looses only 9% of its integrity, and draws only 8% more power. Yay, I "win".

Perhaps I wasn't so lucky.. instead my Secondary Effects read:

-10% mass, +2% Integrity, -4% Power Draw, -4% Optimized Mass

So I end up with a drive that has 15% more mass, 13% less integrity, draws 10% more power, and yields an Optimized Mass of 27%, rather than the 31% I was aiming for.

This would be vastly better than what we currently have, because at least at this point I have some say in what I'm looking for in my modifications, rather than just saying: "Here's my ship's systems, have fun."
 
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Or FD could sit up, take note, and *do something about it*. That might work.

Take note of what the same repetition, Engs. has been simplified already and now commodities are going, so storage will not be an issue, that's a plus. Just get stuck in and cut out the whinge.
 
Take note of what the same repetition, Engs. has been simplified already and now commodities are going, so storage will not be an issue, that's a plus. Just get stuck in and cut out the whinge.

The Whinge as you call it, is not about the Commodities, but about the overall system of Engineers beginning with unlocking the engineers and how we rank them up, as well as the Random effects we then end up with. While the mat collection is boring I did say numerous times that while it could be improved I don't see it as a major issue. Major issue is that unlocking and leveling up the engineers is uninventive to say the least and probably an out right boring grind for a lot of people to be more accurate in my wording. The reason you see so many threads, as you say, is a simple indication that the mechanics are not fun for a lot of people. By me playing through such content would imply that I condone such game design and therefor giving the illusion that I'm having fun which definitely ins't the case. Hence all these threads pointing out why people hate RNGeers.
 
It's so easy to hate the engineers. So many of the upgrades are close to being essential now that there's not really an option to ignore them.

I have two main problems. The main one is collecting rare materials. I recently spent hours driving around some planet trying to find technetium. The DSS said that it made up 1.2% of the rocks so I ended up driving around shooting about 30-40 rocks to get a few units. Then there's firmware. I've never managed to get any other than by spamming data delivery missions. It's just ridiculous. And to make things worst the "fix" in 2.2.03 is to get rid of commodities from the blueprints. I don't know why they think this is a good idea since they're the one component of the blueprints that are actually easy to find.

The other is that it's now made the game unbalanced. I'm not an expert in game design but it seems to me that before the engineers if there was a ship/weapon nerf it would be about once every few months at most. After the engineers there seems to have been a nerf/buff with every minor point release.

In a way the engineers have some good aspects though. I'd never bothered with conflict zones before I tried to unlock all the engineers, so it was good to do something different. If anyone had only ever stuck with one thing (maybe just bounty hunting) then the engineers would encourage them to try something different. But that's about the best I could say about the engineers.
 
All I've ever wanted was Privateer II updated for the 21st century. That was a complete space sim in my mind.

I remember playing that and thinking 'Wow I'd love one of these small touchscreen devices that allow me to communicate with people, store important data, check the price of commodities and generally manage my life'. :D
 
The Whinge as you call it, is not about the Commodities, but about the overall system of Engineers beginning with unlocking the engineers and how we rank them up, as well as the Random effects we then end up with. While the mat collection is boring I did say numerous times that while it could be improved I don't see it as a major issue. Major issue is that unlocking and leveling up the engineers is uninventive to say the least and probably an out right boring grind for a lot of people to be more accurate in my wording. The reason you see so many threads, as you say, is a simple indication that the mechanics are not fun for a lot of people. By me playing through such content would imply that I condone such game design and therefor giving the illusion that I'm having fun which definitely ins't the case. Hence all these threads pointing out why people hate RNGeers.

The grind is in your head, you can bloody spam G1,G2 mods to rank up and you`d do it in 20-30 mins to G5 for Christ`s sake. Mats drop by the 3 and an hour in a bloody SRV and your dumping stuff as you have 40 of this and 50 of that. Give me a break a child could manage it. No excuses whatsoever and now the real pain commodities gone, Stop!
 
Because the quality of pilots have dropped into the toilet and weapons and ships have lost all meaning.

Weapons because its the special effect that will win the fight not the weapon itself.

Ships because you are required to have a tooled out special armor/shield/engine ship in order to just make it to an even playing field. If you haven't put that time in, then the fight is already foregone. Engineered ship will always defeat a regular A rated ship.

Which turns good piloting skills either irrelevant for the non engineered pilot or not needed by the one that is Engineered.

AKA Engineered ship equals an I win button against all other ships without the exact engineering for one particular meta.
 
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The grind is in your head, you can bloody spam G1,G2 mods to rank up and you`d do it in 20-30 mins to G5 for Christ`s sake. Mats drop by the 3 and an hour in a bloody SRV and your dumping stuff as you have 40 of this and 50 of that. Give me a break a child could manage it. No excuses whatsoever and now the real pain commodities gone, Stop!

Yeah and that needs to go! I just did it today engineering up a bunch of rapid-fire pulse lasers. Spam useless level 1 mods 50 times and throw them away to unlock grade 4. Then do 3 useless level 4 mods and throw them away to get to level 5. Then do the mod you actually want and repeat the whole process because you're back to level 3 again! Now do the whole thing 2 more times until all weapons are complete.

There's no challenge in that and no fun. It's just an utterly pointless time gate. Why am I forced to sit in the engineer base rolling and discarding for 20 minutes just to do what I want?
 
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