Why so much hate for the Engineers?

The most simple answer i can come up with was:

- Before engineers, elite was an elegant sandbox.
- Engineers added one of the most inelegant mmo mechanics, a gearcheck to the combat pillar.
- Just like in every single other game where this is implemented, this creates impossible balance issues, and creates a class system in players. Both outcomes in elite have been strong negatives.
- They could have just buffed the ai.

But taking my own advice im sure there is something workable that isn't a complete misery out of the system. As it stands i haven't so i can't combat effectively until i do. Which means i took my weapons off. Which means the game is literally not as fun as it was before the feature. Tangibly worse in terms of combat.

Edit: Another way to look at things is:

- Theres just a simple mistake of not being able to earn engineer mods via combat.
- Imagine world of warcraft, where riding your mount was really fun, but suddenly due to gear, the process of using your abilities really unfun.
- Then also make it so that before you get your abilities in the first place, you have to do something else completely unrelated, leftfield, and nothing but grindy to earn abilities to make it fun.
- I could even understand if you had to say, mine for 100 hours before getting upgraded lasers. Cut your teeth and all. But insanely engineers are powered by secondary systems that feed off the good stuff and worst are not sandbox experiences, they're repetitive grinds doing what the mission board tells you to do, over and over again.
 
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They aren't really engineers - just tinkerers who have sniffed a bit too much WD40.

It's a bit like giving your car to "Dave down the Pub" who promised to lower your suspension by two inches for only 200 quid, only to find he did so by slashing your tyres :(
 

Ripbudd

Banned
They are not that grindy anymore. I think now it's pretty good, except those stupid commodities i have to carry around and only 1000 material storage and 500 data. 60 modules storage? Can i buy some hangar extensions please? Where i can store cargo/materials/data/more modules in station?
 
I disagree with a lot of the sentiments here. While I'll happily admit that RNGineers is not perfect, it's far from the worst update FD have made.

RNGineers
+ drives game-play I wasn't engaged with before.
+ gives an an ambition to play other than making my bank balance number go up, or expanding my faction.
+ has a material effect on gameplay. My Python is now an agile little minx.
+ stays relatively competitive (PVE). as NPC's are harder in RNGineered ships.
+ New Land base assets.

- Commodities that can't be bought anywhere.
- Commodities that cant be stored.
- Drives game-play I don;t want to engage in (killing innocent transport ships to get some worthless rubber hoses from the superstructure of the burning wreckage is absurd)
- Random collection of resources on top of Random outcomes make the whole process feel a lot more laborious than it should.
- missed opportunity.


Compared to CQC.

+ Pilot-able fighter craft
+ Space assets

- Matchmaker a mess
- Long que times
- unbalanced
- no Bots to play against
- Not attached to the main game.

Or Power Play.
+ First faces in the game.
+ Provides a mechanism for the escalation of the background simulation and story to interweave.

- Gameplay feels detached form the rest of the game.
- Merit system feels artificial and forced.
- Activities are a grind
- Rewards are uninteresting and don't really affect how you play the game.
- Should have made used of unique missions on the mission board.
- Should be tied to the BGS and the rest of the galaxy.
- Pledging to a power restricts your movement and will get you harassed.
- Feels like this update has been abandoned by FD and the players both.

On the whole, RNGineers is a lot more valuable an addition to the game than pretty much all of season 1, IMHO.
 
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It's just the RNG aspect, all that work for a rubbish roll.

Maybe it's a personality thing but coming from an industry/engineering background this RNG is intolerable to me. Literally it burns me at the very heart of my soul [mad]

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I meant to add (almost straight away) that yes some RNG element WRT to Mikey 2305 below, but the range is too great. Especially at the higher levels.

For e.g. there is a 30% range on the level #5 FSD range mod!!! This gives significant overlaps across levels so that you can easily get a worse mod than the #4 or even #3 level mod you already have. This to my mind is a real issue.

http://inara.cz/galaxy-blueprint/2
 
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If RNG were not there then everything would look the same, everyone would have the same mod which was the best one and the ones with the most money would have everything. Again.

If i go mining then i wouldnt expect every other rock to be 50% painite just because it makes me happy. I expect to have to do the same things over and over again and i just might hit the jackpot or not. Kind of like it would be if i was actually in space in my ship and mining an asteroid belt. Just like in the comics i used to read as a kid

If i manage to get a 48% FSD boost on my second roll, am i going to be content with that or am i going to carry on gathering and collecting because i think that on or about my 70th roll, i might get 53% which gives another half light year on my asp? Its all a matter of perspective...
 
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For me personally I just think their effects should be massively reigned in and capped. I don't think they should have even offered beyond what level one gives, just a very minor tweak to your load out to make you unique. Getting access to them should have required a little work but not much and there should have been more of them, perhaps limiting what they could do so that there were more of them.

This would have prevented the inane grind, the frustration borne from RNG and stopped the spiraling out of control balance issues that we are now witnessing.

The concept was excellent, the implementation was terrible imho.
 
I think perhaps the concept is ok, the implementation is ok, but the adoption by the playing community is pretty terrible...
 

verminstar

Banned
Thing about engineers is that they arent really needed unless ye play fer pvp...if one has no interest in pvp then engineers are a bit of a bad joke if truth be told. Too much like hard work fer varying degrees of luck with the results? Seems people in the year 3000 whatever, have forgotten how to use fleabay or dumtree to buy commodities...like civilization has devolved, not evolved. The whole logic behind it feels like its from some cheezy sci fi movie in the 80s...

And yet a thousand years ago, one could pay a mechanic less than 500 quid and have a turbo diesel engine remapped using pre set maps for every engine ever made, with the results guaranteed or yer money and original engine back...

Like I say...its like technology went backwards in some respects, not forwards...
 
After having spent 5 rolls yesterday to try to improve my G5 FSD range on my Asp (trying to get over ~40% current optimized mass) and got all rolls actually crappier, yeah... I hate the randomness. I think I did get a super minor improvement at the end, at the expense of heavier drawbacks.

I insist, Engineers should iterate. Get better results every time, within a randomness interval if you want to RNG, but worse results are totally unacceptable.
 
Yes I most defiantly agree with that. Hiding behind all of the RNG and randomness is indeed a big problem. If everyone had the same access to all of the modules and special effects, then perhaps piloting and skill based flying will come back to the forefront of the encounters. If everyone had the capability to be on level equipment wise then it could be more fun. A bit more like chess less like wack a mole.

I dont want to make it free mind you, however the special effects roles on weapons either needs to go away, or they need to be picked by the player. Especially if they are doing a grade 5 upgrade. The Player can choose either a secondary effect for all non weapon modules and one special effect for each weapon module.

They can either remove most of the grind by removing RNG on one side or the other. I think there are way too many material types to begin with. Reduce the types needed and maybe increase the number required.

For example any ship that you would destroy could drop either Weapon Modules, Shield components, or platting. The planet based materials from outcrops is fine as it is now. Mining for engineering I thought of adding another rack to all refineries in ships. An alloy slot or a Crystalline slot. If you check the alloy slot, then you get Military grade alloy based off of 3 metal combinations.

If you say get Iron, Aluminium, and tin then you get a Grade C Military alloy
If you add Palladium, Platinum, and Titanium you get a Grade A Military alloy.
Any 2 grade C metals and One grade A will get you a Grade B Alloy. Same for 2 Grade A Metals and one Grade C will get you a B grade alloy.

I know its complicated, but that way by using that system you could determine the quality of the RNG roles a little better. Do something similar with the Ice Mining for the crystal components.

Anyways thats an Idea to make em more palatable I think.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Put it however you like. I'm with Ziljan on this one. Mods are fun and useful, easy to obtain even at their top tiers and actually involve some pretty good gameplay in the context of the overall game. You want to hate on them instead of reaping their benefits then go right ahead--just pray you don't run into me in Open:)

What are the main benefits you like the most?

Wouldn't they be better if the builds could be more diverse regarding the weapons?
 
What are the main benefits you like the most?

Wouldn't they be better if the builds could be more diverse regarding the weapons?

Call me crazy, but I'd have to say diversity. That, and without the engineer's, my interest in the game would possibly have dried up. It was both the prospect of crazy modded weapons and effects and the hunt for materials themselves that actually engaged me over the entire summer and fall, giving me a high interest purpose and a powerful goal.

Man, I've been picking fights at the bounty hunting CG and no two outfits seem to be the same. Ill win 4-5 fights that I seem to be well prepared for, then some clever pilot will show up with a counter I'm not prepared for and clean my clock. Granted, I'm pretty inexperienced compared to the average PvPer since I've only gotten into it in the last couple of months, but from my perspective there seems to be a a LOT of diversity in modded weapon loadouts. Not only that, but a number of different tactics for using them. Maybe not in the top tier PvP leagues where you have nothing but specialists getting together, but out in the wild this notion that's being propagated that everybody is the same doesn't even come close to what I'm seeing. Out of maybe 60 fights over the last couple days, I bet I've encounter 10 distinctly different builds, and then maybe another 10-15 variations on those builds.

I recognize that I'm no authority on the subject, and I'm not trying to put myself out there as one. I'm just a guy who's embraced the engineers fully and who's been engaging pretty heavily in PvP (consensual and non-consensual; I paid out about 21 million in rebuys at the latest CG), and just giving a report about what I'm seeing out there in the wild.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Call me crazy, but I'd have to say diversity. That, and without the engineer's, my interest in the game would possibly have dried up. It was both the prospect of crazy modded weapons and effects and the hunt for materials themselves that actually engaged me over the entire summer and fall, giving me a high interest purpose and a powerful goal.

Man, I've been picking fights at the bounty hunting CG and no two outfits seem to be the same. Ill win 4-5 fights that I seem to be well prepared for, then some clever pilot will show up with a counter I'm not prepared for and clean my clock. Granted, I'm pretty inexperienced compared to the average PvPer since I've only gotten into it in the last couple of months, but from my perspective there seems to be a a LOT of diversity in modded weapon loadouts. Not only that, but a number of different tactics for using them. Maybe not in the top tier PvP leagues where you have nothing but specialists getting together, but out in the wild this notion that's being propagated that everybody is the same doesn't even come close to what I'm seeing. Out of maybe 60 fights over the last couple days, I bet I've encounter 10 distinctly different builds, and then maybe another 10-15 variations on those builds.

I recognize that I'm no authority on the subject, and I'm not trying to put myself out there as one. I'm just a guy who's embraced the engineers fully and who's been engaging pretty heavily in PvP (consensual and non-consensual; I paid out about 21 million in rebuys at the latest CG), and just giving a report about what I'm seeing out there in the wild.

I herad there was only one real build for the weapons though I'm not sure if that's changed since a few months back but I'd agree with you that PVP is ED's only saving grace right now (as long as you can see each other LOL).
 
Besides the ridiculous grind, the so called people are as much detached from players as any other NPC in the game.

No matter how close to these individuals I become, they still won't tell me what I need to make something over the Space Internet, I have to go see them to find out

Their dialogue is as canned as any other NPC

No matter how good friends we become, I'll never get a gift from them

Really, they're just another grind that they don't try to 'personalize' to make you feel like, you're doing them a favor like they're doing you one. They're just factories who demand ridiculous things just to open the garage for you
 
Yup because they are random, damaged people and outlaws. Which is why you have to approach them in secret and pander to their crazy demands. And what they give you is sometimes brilliant and sometimes garbage. Its the chance you take by dealing with them right from the outset...
 
Why so much hate for the Engineers?
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Simple answer to the above question - they are not fun.

Ah ha! I think you may have nailed it there Commander. Ah ha indeed.

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fun +1
 
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The most simple answer i can come up with was:

- Before engineers, elite was an elegant sandbox.
- Engineers added one of the most inelegant mmo mechanics, a gearcheck to the combat pillar.
- Just like in every single other game where this is implemented, this creates impossible balance issues, and creates a class system in players. Both outcomes in elite have been strong negatives.
- They could have just buffed the ai.
.

Agreed, by introducing Engineers they made it impossible to balance the NPCs for all players.

Some got the best Engineers upgrades possible and did the grind, now NPC's are like paper to them. Others didn't want the RNG Grind so stayed away from Engineers.

So what you got then was the Engineered players moaning how easy the NPCs were...

So FD buff the NPCs AI, fit sidewinders with dual plasma Accelerators, no heat damage and no ammo limits to make it harder for the engineers players.

By doing this they completely unbalanced the game for the non Engineers player's, making higher lvl NPC's almost unstoppable in a non engineered ship.

So now we start with the endless loop of nerf, buff, nerf buff meta changes FD will have to do to try and figure some way of balancing the game for all players.

Far from easy......
 
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