WHY!?

[Darkfyre99]

Since there are no such tasks, it turns out there are no such tasks from the FP. Yes, the player can make up all sorts of nonsense such as: racing on the SRV, manipulation of the BGS and other things, but it will be just a fantasy and no more.

Talk about player-centered morality.

Here’s the thing: as far as this game is concerned, a murder is still a murder. It doesn’t matter if it’s a player or on NPC getting killed illegally: it’s still a murder. It’s player agnostic. If I were to I take an Odyssey Settlement Massacre mission, I’m murdering 20+ innocent civilians in what only be described as a mass shooting.

It doesn’t matter that they’re NPCs. It’s still an act of terror if I’m hired by Non-Government Organization, or a war crime if I’m hired by a government.

It’s fine if you don’t care. They’re only NPCs, right?

But this conversation is about world building. Namely, what does the fact that the Pilots Federation openly acts as an intermediary between an organization that wants to massacre a civilian settlement, and a mass murderer who’s willing to do just that for money?

 

[Wily Rites]

Talk about player-centered morality.

Here’s the thing: as far as this game is concerned, a murder is still a murder. It doesn’t matter if it’s a player or on NPC getting killed illegally: it’s still a murder. It’s player agnostic. If I were to I take an Odyssey Settlement Massacre mission, I’m murdering 20+ innocent civilians in what only be described as a mass shooting.

It doesn’t matter that they’re NPCs. It’s still an act of terror if I’m hired by Non-Government Organization, or a war crime if I’m hired by a government.

It’s fine if you don’t care. They’re only NPCs, right?

But this conversation is about world building. Namely, what does the fact that the Pilots Federation openly acts as an intermediary between an organization that wants to massacre a civilian settlement, and a mass murderer who’s willing to do just that for money?

This is where things start to get tricky, murder is not just murder, the definition of murder is unlawful killing, now we are in space and there is no galactic overlord, dictator, monarch, emperor, council, sennet, president, minister or pope or other who can define a law for all systems; If we now consider the size of the galaxy; Under which jurisdiction is it murder, who's laws are to be followed?

Murder to one faction may be the preparation of a celebratory lunch for another.

The pilots federation is only publicly concerned with maintaining the reputation and safety of pilots, differentiating them from pirates. Though the business that they do in private does, most likely, have some ulterior motive, dark wheels within dark wheels and all that. An organisation with as much power and influence as the PF can hardly be accused of condoning murder, when it has its own jurisdiction and controls a monopoly that regulates all ships, across all factions attempting to curb troublesome behaviour with bounties.

One of the thing that peeves me most in the game is that I get hassled by pirates when visiting founders world, to take advantage of the prices available to federation members due to it's purchasing power, another reason d'être of the foundation; There is just no sense to it.

 

[SergMx]

Talk about player-centered morality.

Here’s the thing: as far as this game is concerned, a murder is still a murder. It doesn’t matter if it’s a player or on NPC getting killed illegally: it’s still a murder. It’s player agnostic. If I were to I take an Odyssey Settlement Massacre mission, I’m murdering 20+ innocent civilians in what only be described as a mass shooting.

It doesn’t matter that they’re NPCs. It’s still an act of terror if I’m hired by Non-Government Organization, or a war crime if I’m hired by a government.

It’s fine if you don’t care. They’re only NPCs, right?

But this conversation is about world building. Namely, what does the fact that the Pilots Federation openly acts as an intermediary between an organization that wants to massacre a civilian settlement, and a mass murderer who’s willing to do just that for money?

I'm sorry. You're wrong about that. I have written many times that you can not separate players and NPCs in some places, and in some places not to separate (for example, highlighting players on the radar with a hollow square).
There were many objections from different sides.
As a result, we came to the conclusion that the world of Elite is clearly divided into NPCs and people.
So the massacre of NPCs and people in the Elite is different things.

 

[Wily Rites]

I'm sorry. You're wrong about that. I have written many times that you can not separate players and NPCs in some places, and in some places not to separate (for example, highlighting players on the radar with a hollow square).
There were many objections from different sides.
As a result, we came to the conclusion that the world of Elite is clearly divided into NPCs and people.
So the massacre of NPCs and people in the Elite is different things.

NPC and human players are differentiated by the pilots federation, we are all members where as NPC's are not:

 

[Wily Rites]

One can argue that it is just a game, but then game theory is used in both warfare and economics. It is very easy to justify ones own actions, to themselves, by saying that the system encourages it; To rise above the corrupt normative to become elite is not, it ought to be what defines the status.

Slavery

 

[SergMx]

NPC and human players are differentiated by the pilots federation, we are all members where as NPC's are not:

It doesn't matter. I mean, there's NPC massacres in the game, but no human massacres.
There's a clear separation between NPCs and humans.

 

[Wily Rites]

It doesn't matter. I mean, there's NPC massacres in the game, but no human massacres.
There's a clear separation between NPCs and humans.

It matters to me I'm very happy to be a part of the pilots' federation ... and I refuse massacre missions anyhow, but that's just me.

 

[Darkfyre99]

It doesn't matter. I mean, there's NPC massacres in the game, but no human massacres.
There's a clear separation between NPCs and humans.

In the context of the game, NPCs are humans, just like players are. It’s just that all players are members of the Pilots Federation, while no NPCs are.

 

[SergMx]

In the context of the game, NPCs are humans, just like players are. It’s just that all players are members of the Pilots Federation, while no NPCs are.

That's what I'm writing about, your cruelty is only against the computer, there is no cruelty against living people, unless the person does it himself.
According to the game lore there is a sect of people that say that the Thargoids are good, such even exist on the forum, but that does not mean that they are good.

 

[Jockey79]

That's what I'm writing about, your cruelty is only against the computer, there is no cruelty against living people, unless the person does it himself.
According to the game lore there is a sect of people that say that the Thargoids are good, such even exist on the forum, but that does not mean that they are good.

If you take a "massacre 20 haulers" mission, you can certainly log into Open Mode, then find and kill 20 human haulers and complete your mission.
The missions do not specify humans or NPC as targets for it. That is down to you to decide, to be "cruel" to the NPCs or be "cruel" to humans.

 

[SergMx]

If you take a "massacre 20 haulers" mission, you can certainly log into Open Mode, then find and kill 20 human haulers and complete your mission.
The missions do not specify humans or NPC as targets for it. That is down to you to decide, to be "cruel" to the NPCs or be "cruel" to humans.

That's all I wrote about above. This is pure fantasy of people, not mandatory requirements of the game. The game allows it as well as races on SRV.
If the game had no divisions between humans and NPCs, then everything would look different.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That's what I'm writing about, your cruelty is only against the computer, there is no cruelty against living people, unless the person does it himself.
According to the game lore there is a sect of people that say that the Thargoids are good, such even exist on the forum, but that does not mean that they are good.

And in the context of the game, there is no computer, only living people. Just like in the context of a book, there is no paper and ink, but living people. Or in the context of a TV program or movie, there are no actors (human, ink, or CGI), but living people. You’re confusing the medium with the message.

Now, if you don’t care about the message, only “ships go boom,” that's fine. But a lot of us do care about the message. We care about the glimpse of future the Elite franchise provides us. We care about world building done not just a few lines of text at a tourist POI, but what the game mechanics have to say about life in the 34th century of the Elite Universe, and how the Pilots Federation has transformed, over the course of a generation, from a trade union of independent pilots into something far more sinister.

It’s a fascinating study of how game mechanics affects world building, and how a poorly implemented crime & consequences system can have unintended consequences for how players perceive that world. And that world is far more dystopian than Frontier seems to have intended it to be, judging by the lore snippets we get in game, and the primary driving force behind that dystopia is the Pilots Federation.

 

[Wily Rites]

There is the shipboard computer systems, used to run the bounty and ranking system, over which the pilots federation has the monopoly; I'd argue that this is the only thing that needs updating to put the federation back on track. That it is the 'computer' in the game, it is galnet.

There is no issue in solo mode, nor in certain group modes, but I really dislike the group mode as that is falling back on the galactic overlord as a solution. What is needed is an adjustment to the shipboard computer and garnet system that adapts to the world as a multiplay world with vastly differing play styles, particularly that which I've eluded to above, with anti-social dominators/manipulators at one end of the spectrum and civilised cooperative role-players at the other end.

The system must take account of this, and if re-buy's are considered to be a 'life' icon and you money pot the number of little ships in the 'arcade' unreal tournament death match version of the game, I'd suggest something like karma and reincarnation with values passing between lives as an incentive not to devalue the game of others, for ones own amusement; More attention to PvP as in CQC could go a long way in resolving this issue too.

Essentially, this issue with the current functionality is that some players are looking for full immersion, where as others are exploring/exploiting the edges of the game, to find the game play that they are looking for. Of course using the edges of the game in such a way is going to be game breaking for folk who engage in the more immersive play style.

I don't see a dystopian world, no more dystopian at least, than that which is just outside my window.

Elite is also very funny at times:

Stated on the line: "Our democracy relies on the large-scale transportation of information. You may need to enlists associates for this mission."

Interpreted between the lines: "Our democracy relies on the large-scale application of propaganda, if we don't get enough alcohol through then the propaganda may fail."

Is it dystopian? I think it just plain funny, certainly amusing enough to keep me interested in running missions and developing my skills along the way. I currently run most in open mode but alone, not adversed to team play but, as it is in the real world too, very good associates and friends are extremely difficult to find. Add to that the scale of the milky way and well, it a hell of a thing.

 

[SergMx]

And in the context of the game, there is no computer, only living people. Just like in the context of a book, there is no paper and ink, but living people.

You're wrong. In the context of the game, the difference between NPCs and real people is HUGE.

• I can hire a NPC as a crew, but how do I get him to fire turrets?
• When adding a person to the crew I get additional energy pips, where is it in the NPC hired as a crew ?
• How do I add a NPC to a wing ?

...

I can write 1000 different conditions that are available to people and not available to NPCs. And to me this is the main problem of the game, sometimes this separation is done, sometimes not. Why is that ?

A simple example. Why is the NOTORIETY given for anyone killed in the game, why not give it only for killing a member of the FP ? Since the game clearly separates these groups, it is possible to give NOTORIETY only for killing a member of the FP, but the punishment can be made very heavy !

 

[Jockey79]

You're wrong. In the context of the game, the difference between NPCs and real people is HUGE.

• I can hire a NPC as a crew, but how do I get him to fire turrets?
• When adding a person to the crew I get additional energy pips, where is it in the NPC hired as a crew ?
• How do I add a NPC to a wing ?

...

I can write 1000 different conditions that are available to people and not available to NPCs. And to me this is the main problem of the game, sometimes this separation is done, sometimes not. Why is that ?

A simple example. Why is the NOTORIETY given for anyone killed in the game, why not give it only for killing a member of the FP ? Since the game clearly separates these groups, it is possible to give NOTORIETY only for killing a member of the FP, but the punishment can be made very heavy !

NPC crew can fly your ship and fire your turrets - jump in an SLF, assign them to the pilot's seat, watch your ship jump into life, and probably crash into you. As the last time I did that, they were awful and hit my SLF with my Anaconda.

Your argument hinges on a pip, that lots of people say is irrelevant. lol.

NPCs want to wing with you as much as I do lol.

As for your "1,000" conditions, go for it, name them. I bet they are completely nonsense and irrelevant, like the pips one.
End of the day, for any in-game mission progress, NPCs and humans are equally relevant targets.

 

[Lateralus]

Well this is what you get when there is literally nothing else for PvPers to do, like many of us have argued a million times before on these forums over the last 10 years. But whenever we suggest content for PvPers/Open players that would focus combat orientated players at more meaningful activities, we get met with "yOu jUsT wAnT mOrE vIcTiMs yOu sOcIoPaTh!!" by people who do not understand game design.

Remember, no PvP outlet = ganking... As it's the most reliable form of PvP available.

 

[Mrc_NorthEast]

Remember, no PvP outlet = ganking... As it's the most reliable form of PvP available.

Maybe, but a whole bunch would still gank, just because they can. In the beginning I think Fdev thought Cqc would take care of that but it never worked out that way. I doubt pp2.0 will change it either, but we shall all see soon enough

 

[Lateralus]

Maybe, but a whole bunch would still gank, just because they can. In the beginning I think Fdev thought Cqc would take care of that but it never worked out that way. I doubt pp2.0 will change it either, but we shall all see soon enough

CQC just doesn't scratch the PvP itch with its minimal viable product implementation.. It could have been better had FDEV gone down a more 'Arena Commander' route with it (more varied game options and ship choices). But they were never interested and abandoned it. What a shame.

 

[Screemonster]

CQC just doesn't scratch the PvP itch with its minimal viable product implementation.. It could have been better had FDEV gone down a more 'Arena Commander' route with it (more varied game options and ship choices). But they were never interested and abandoned it. What a shame.

Yeah, everyone keeps busting out the strawman of "you just don't play cqc because you don't want an equal fight"

Like, a lot of the big-name gankers have equal fights all the time out in places like the puppis sector rocks and san tu, there's events like plagoween where they all hop off in a carrier into the black and kill each other in deep space (hence the inara security report sometimes showing hundreds of kills happening off in some seemingly random system 3000ly out of the bubble) - there's a ton of organised and arranged events like that and they exist despite the complete lack of support from the devs. The reason they don't play CQC is nothing to do with "equal opponents".

It's been a while since we had an opposed war CG. Those things are reliably absolute bloodbaths and they're all people who came specifically looking for a fight. Something like that, something to focus people on the same place so they can find each other without resorting to out-of-game means, that's what people are asking for.

 

[SergMx]

NPC crew can fly your ship and fire your turrets - jump in an SLF, assign them to the pilot's seat, watch your ship jump into life, and probably crash into you. As the last time I did that, they were awful and hit my SLF with my Anaconda.

It isn't. Turrets are not controlled by the NPC. That's easy to prove.
And why only turrets? Where are the extra pips? They're clearly visible.

And why do you think that 2 extra points in pvp are meaningless and irrelevant ? Have you never fought in PvP?