WHY!?

[Dillon Fallon]

It could be a single player game and say exactly the same thing about it being a cutthroat galaxy.

It could, but as it's a multiplayer game which frames its environment as a place where bad things happen, you can't be surprised when people play up to that.

Although thinking along the lines of a single player game, if we treated players as we treated the NPCs... Hoo boy.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Open play should not mean PvP.

It doesn't...
I spend perhaps 90% of my play in open and rarely see another player (apart from the group I play with).

Open play does mean that the player is accepting that other players may be encountered, and that those encounter may not be friendly.

That is why there is solo & PG, making other players (not chosen by the player) entirely optional, or even not existing, isn't it?

 

[Wily Rites]

Which I do to the letter, I murder, destroy and undermine, all with the blessing of the PF, each time I accept a mission from a PF sanctioned Mission board...
The fact that I may freelance a little outside of those mission boards, even to the stage of having maximum notoriety, does not see the PF frowning on me and requesting I leave their organisation.

And those missions are entirely within the lore of the game, as every CMDR is a conscripted member of the PF, with no opportunity to leave.

The PF wants elite combat pilots first, to do their dirty work for them, which is why, whenever another ship (NPC or player) is scanned in space, etc. the pilot's combat rank is shown, not the highest rank of any discipline.

The pilots federation does not pay any attention to what you do to folk who it does not represent, you may have misconstrued its purpose. They exist to bring about the confidence and assurance, that you can trust in a pilots and their capacity to get the job done. At the time of the conception of the federation the behaviour of pirates and vagabond pilots led to a situation in which the land lubbers very much distrusted all space fairing folk. The aim was to reinstall some confidence and develop a structure in which pilots could be hired with some assurance of stature.

So murder is not frowned upon, unless it happens in particular circumstances, killing other federation pilots who do not have bounties upon their heads being one of them, another would be killing lawful folk when the responsibility has not been bound by a contract to some other party.

I would say though that the most certainly would deal harshly with those who take on passengers just to kill them for some ulterior motive, or delivery missions just to steal the cargo; nothing that I can imagine would do more to damage the pilots federations, or be so thorogly against it's core values.

 

[Wily Rites]

The solution unfortunately is a double edged sword and not one that most players would want to deal with, so FDev are between a rock and a hard place. Suggest on this forum, for example, that an accidental murder would result in a fiery death if you didn't immediately escape the system and you weren't welcome back in any way until you'd paid off the bounty and, well, it won't be positive feedback, put it that way.

I'd personally relish gameplay that kept me in anarchy regions because of the risks of going into lawful regions (with some high notoriety bonus missions from the anarchy factions to keep me busy), but unfortunately there isn't much support for a robust deterrent to crime that would inevitably affect everyone.

It has been up until now, AI is now capable of fair discrimination, if you feed it the right data in the right way.

Addendum: Though with that said, I also believe that it could be done with the right language, model and grammar, not built by an AI built by hand.

 

[Rat Catcher]

So murder is not frowned upon, unless it happens in particular circumstances, killing other federation pilots who do not have bounties upon their heads being one of them

But illegal NPC or Player killing carries the same 'punishment' from the PF, a bounty and notoriety up to the maximum of 10 - which can be reset to zero just by playing without murdering for a few hours - bounties can get interesting doing either activity, so no real discrimination between NPC or Player.

I appreciate that some players loathe the idea that another player may blow them up for no particular reason, anywhere, any time - but, until the game actively prevents such happening, it is up to the individual to mitigate against it to their chosen level.

Humans like destroying other humans, why would they behave differently in a game that permits the same?

 

[Wily Rites]

It could, but as it's a multiplayer game which frames its environment as a place where bad things happen, you can't be surprised when people play up to that.

Although thinking along the lines of a single player game, if we treated players as we treated the NPCs... Hoo boy.

How is that any different from chess? Imagine the ruckus if chess players started attacking each other instead of the king on the table during each game!

We are not toddlers! ... oh hang on, perhaps some of us are.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

It has been up until now, AI is now capable of fair discrimination, if you feed it the right data in the right way.

I'm sure it can, but even the best AI is going to struggle doing anything effective with system security ships that I (or any other player with the right build) can go up against as if it's a clay pigeon shoot. If I can murder a target under fire from system security and safely stop to pick up the materials without using limpets, there is no response to crime. Ok, we have ATR (after you've murdered 8 targets!), but they can be avoided by counting your kills and jumping out and back into the system to start again.

These are deliberate design choices to stop the consequences crime being too hard to deal with.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

How is that any different from chess? Imagine the ruckus if chess players started attacking each other instead of the king on the table during each game!

We are not toddlers! ... oh hang on, perhaps some of us are.

I've never been physically attacked by anyone while playing or as a result of playing ED.

They have attacked my character in ED with their character, just as I've had to deal with people trying to checkmate my king in chess.

 

[Wily Rites]

I've never been physically attacked by anyone while playing or as a result of playing ED.

They have attacked my character in ED with their character, just as I've had to deal with people trying to checkmate my king in chess.

The character in game, as a member of the pilots federation, is very similar to a physical person in a chess club. The club exists to make the game more sporting, allow for ranking and to give validity to the match.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

The character in game, as a member of the pilots federation, is very similar to a physical person in a chess club. The club exists to make the game more sporting, allow for ranking and to give validity to the match.

If we can't differentiate our real selves from video game characters, this discussion is taking a trip away from reality. Have fun with it, I'm out.

 

[Wily Rites]

If we can't differentiate our real selves from video game characters, this discussion is taking a trip away from reality. Have fun with it, I'm out.

I'm stating what I believe to be the games creator's perspective on the pilots federation and you are going all ad hominem.

 

[Wily Rites]

To my mind we fundamentally agree with each other, I concede that the game has moved on a long way since the early days when the words of the games created upon which I am leaning were spoken, and I also fully agree that the game would be more fun for all if it was more difficult to commit heinous bloodthirsty aimless crimes in high security systems.

More attention required by all when plotting their routes and planning their sessions amusements. I've nothing against PvP as I repeatedly state, it is the break from the play of the games environment that I find disturbing. All I'm advocating for is a better game.

I've also repeatedly stated that the game is already fantastic, these are finishing touches that would make it utterly superb. Is all.

Fight club is fine, but there is a time and a place for it, seems such a shame to spoil such a wonderful canvas that we have to play in with such limited play scenarios. Else why not just put little space ships up in the right hand corner of the screen showing your lives left, do away with the economic system and money, and keep a kill count beside that, rather than using home grown software to do it.

I love PvP combat, but need it to be fitting the games scenario, for it not to spoil the same. My fingers are crossed that the new power play will go a long way in smoothing things out... I wait with anticipation.

Addendum:

As for my state of mind, well, it being brought into question here as a response to any reasonable arguments being made, is further indication in support of the hypothesis stated above, responding to 'Why!?' folk are doing what the OP has asked.

 

[nemolomen]

... the cut throat thing flies in the face of this aspect of the games lore and ethos entirely...

I respectfully disagree...

 

[nemolomen]

Whilst we can point to advertising even way back at the start saying other players are optional.

Yes, via the other modes and, to some extent, block lists.

Open play should not mean PvP.

O7

Open play does not guarantee PvP, but it does guarantee the possibility of PvP, and that is exactly what it should do. It is the reason I 99% play in Open.

The other 1% is when I'm playing with others who either don't play in Open at all or simply aren't at that time.

 

[Darrack]

I spend perhaps 90% of my play in open and rarely see another player

Careful don't let the PP2 Open only hard mode bonus folks hear that!

O7

 

[Rebel Yell]

If we can't differentiate our real selves from video game characters, this discussion is taking a trip away from reality. Have fun with it, I'm out.

There's plenty of books written by psychiatrists about that... well, yeah I'm not a psychiatrist too

 

[SergMx]

It could, but as it's a multiplayer game which frames its environment as a place where bad things happen, you can't be surprised when people play up to that.

Although thinking along the lines of a single player game, if we treated players as we treated the NPCs... Hoo boy.

What other bad things?
No missions to kill another player, only NPCs.
NPCs are very weak and if YOU don't want to get away from them (which is very easy) you can kill them quite easily.

Have you ever seen a NPC attack you with an empty hold?

A long time ago I made such a suggestion: to give a notoriety if one player attacks another, provided that he does not have a hold scanner.

In Elite only human players do bad things, any NPCs (even Thargoids) don't do bad things !

 

[Viscera]

Have you ever seen a NPC attack you with an empty hold?

Yes.
Killing certain groups/individuals on ground in Odyssey missions will cause NPC to spawn/attack you in space.
Often these are clean NPC too, so fighting back can cause it's own issues.

 

[Jockey79]

What other bad things?
No missions to kill another player, only NPCs.
NPCs are very weak and if YOU don't want to get away from them (which is very easy) you can kill them quite easily.

Have you ever seen a NPC attack you with an empty hold?

A long time ago I made such a suggestion: to give a notoriety if one player attacks another, provided that he does not have a hold scanner.

In Elite only human players do bad things, any NPCs (even Thargoids) don't do bad things !

Actually, killing missions can be completed by killing players. As long as the player meets the requirements (has a bounty for bounty missions and so on)
The problem from the "victim" side of things is they will not know they are a mission target for you. So from their point of view, they could have been killed for no reason.

Yes, I've had NPC pirates attack me with an empty hold. They pulled over my cargo ship to scan me, I didn't want to be scanned and boosted away.
So they shot at me until I jumped out.

Not only humans do bad things. I've had NPCs fire limpet drones at me to steal my cargo.

Do you actually play the game, at all? These are basic things you experience in the first few hours of the game.

 

[Darkfyre99]

AI has improved, there is no doubt about that, and if a better model (and accompanying protocol) were to be used, voila. If folk do not meet the pilots' federation standards they are striped of rank and loose the privileges gained by being part of the federation, how does the federation do this? The same way that they give rank, by spying on you from within your shipboard computer, a privilege that is afforded to them by their monopoly on the shipboard computer market.

Which I do to the letter, I murder, destroy and undermine, all with the blessing of the PF, each time I accept a mission from a PF sanctioned Mission board...
The fact that I may freelance a little outside of those mission boards, even to the stage of having maximum notoriety, does not see the PF frowning on me and requesting I leave their organisation.

And those missions are entirely within the lore of the game, as every CMDR is a conscripted member of the PF, with no opportunity to leave.

The PF wants elite combat pilots first, to do their dirty work for them, which is why, whenever another ship (NPC or player) is scanned in space, etc. the pilot's combat rank is shown, not the highest rank of any discipline.

Which is why I consider the modern Pilots Federation to be the “baddies” of this game. The way the PF runs what passes for Law & Order among the stars…

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY