Would You Explore More if Return Was Easier?

[Bacalao]

I can see your point, let me submit my experience to you if I may.

I will arrive at Saggy tonight after 3 weeks of jumping and over 1500 neutron/black hole first-scans, then the long trek back begins (I came out 1000Ly above the plane and will go back 1000Ly below it, or below and above if you prefer), at times it has been grindy (oh I'm still not in scan range? REALLY?!), long (2000 jumps), tedious ("frame shift drive, charging"), boring (99 billion bottles of beer on the wall...), brilliant (my first B-class), terrifying (those first few neutrons...). I have longed to see another ship, to see the "Welcome to George Lucas" pop up, to feel safe. I am rolling around with over 100 million credits in data in my ship (by my estimate) and one lapse of concentration, one over zealous fuel scoop, one loopy moment in a planetary ring one slow reaction time as I jump into a close binary system and it all goes up in smoke as my computer cries "EJECT, EJECT!". I dread the threat of interdiction as I come back into civilized space, my palms sweat as I think about the delicate maneuver to re-enter a Coriolis after over a month in supercruise.

Now for all the boredom and tedium of this trip, the closer I get to Saggy (Sagittarius A, it's been a long trip, humanizing it with a nickname has become a necessity) the more imminent my return, the more excited, the more adrenaline filled, the more focused I become. No trader knows the intensity of hauling 8 figures of cargo in their hold with no shields, no weapons and no ship integrity. No bounty hunter has ever landed a bounty so juicy as the one my data banks hold, no pirate has ever seen the like of the booty I carry. I am out in the black, I am far from home, my only companion has been my faithful and trusty Asp.
I am an explorer, I have seen beautiful things, felt the thrill of an undiscovered earth like and terror of "emergency dropout, too close", the wash of relief after a panicked glance at my modules readout to see that everything is still functional.

The return trip awaits and that is where the fun begins. I would have it no other way.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

No. I want to play this game making in-game decisions for in-game reasons, with the game as realistic and 'magic free' as possible. If I am 30k LY out (as I am, FWIW), I would expect to have to fly 30K LY to get home. No shortcuts, especially if those are 'magic' related. Yes, I know that the game, because it is a game, has 'shortcuts' that could facilitate this, such as 'accidentally dying'. Thus, for example, whilst I have suggested that it make lore-sense to allow some mechanism to send home discovery data from out in the deep (to mitigate the risk, even if there is a non-trivial cost to do so), I would not use that as a 'get out of exploring free' card where you send the data home, kill your ship and magically get home, even if I know people with a different perspective on 'how to play the game' would do so.

 

[CMDR Alonso]

I considered that, and here's a few thoughts:
- The nature of human political control is such that a large diaspora would not be likely to happen unless humans change profoundly. Those in power would not want new colonies arising all over the galaxy because those might become powers some day and come back to haunt them. In fact I doubt the current situation - where anyone can buy an armed ship - would ever happen. Politicians would lose control over "their" populations way too fast and then there would be no value in being politicians.
- Human civilizations are resource-greedy and there may be a lot of interdependencies we don't understand right now. I think FD gets this more or less right with the various plagues and "Plugh Station needs medicine!" CGs. A human outpost 20,000ly away would be at much much greater risk of catastrophic - something - than one 100ly away, where help is hours not days away. Think back to the 12th/13th century on Earth where there were occasionally entire towns wiped out by raiders or pirates, or fire or famine or disease. Humans build vertically and horizontally integrated civilizations because we're more likely to survive if we do.

I would expect human "fringers" like the European settlers that colonized North America to break away and establish colonies way out, past political control. The Puritan religious fanatics that settled the East Coast of the US left England because they were so unpopular there, they looked for a place where they could go start anew. I would expect that sort of thing to be all over the galaxy of Elite, actually. Or, rather, their bones and the wreckage of their ships.. Pirates, famine, disease, hostile wildlife... It's a huge aspect of possible game-play that FD hasn't looked at, yet. "The Lost Colony" Or imagine what happens if the lost colony militarizes and the rest of human space encounters a psychopathic armed equivalent of Daesh? (and that's why in my first point above, I would expect human politicians to try to prevent that scenario)

Edit: I always liked the old "generations ship" scenario. Some crazy cult pools everything they can get their hands on and launches off to find a new eden. And when they get 1000ly out, they discover nobody thought to bring a can opener and they all die.

And add to your comment that hummanity experienced a huge decay after world war three and wiping out all aliens (bloody empire!). It's like a post-apocaliptic Sci-Fi scenario.

*I've not written the following*

Problem is it's not 1200 years of continuous technological development, there was World War 3 which blew humanity back to the bronze age, then civilization was rebuilt by corporations, then part of humanity split off to form a peace commune but some guy killed the pacifists and declared himself emperor. After that humanity fell into two groups, federation ruled by mega-corporations and where most of the people are unemployed due to a fully automated economy and the Empire where most of the people are slaves owned by nobles. There's not much need for technological innovation from either group. There was variety in that humanity only owned 45 of the 2040 inhabited planets, but the empire genocided all the aliens and destroyed Galcorp. That's a 98% reduction in galactic population since 3200.

Result is what you have now, where 12 tons of "domestic appliances" (washing machines and fridges), not even a truck load by today's standards, is considered to be enough to unstabalize entire systems and results in multiple interdictions where NPCs talk about how the delivery of these washing machines will cause untold death and destruction because of a "domestic appliance" gap between the factions. Compare that to our world where 200,000 ton capacity freighters are the norm, in the E: D setting a single Panther Clipper able to carry 1000 tons is quoted as being able to completely destroy a star system's socio-economic system.

Look at the Python and Anaconda, then look at "modern" ships like the Type-7 and Type-9. 600 year old ships are able to run rings around ships that are barely a decade old.

People in 3300 are lucky the lights still work and they have food to eat because they're living in some kind of dystopian post apocalyptic universe

And that is why we don't have a Sag A* station

 

[Surly_Badger]

It takes zero skill to explore. Just a willingness to do the same thing over n over n over again.

That statement can be applied to pretty much anything in any game, ever. Or in real life, for that matter.

 

[Cradle2Grave]

That statement can be applied to pretty much anything in any game, ever. Or in real life, for that matter.

Ok mate.

 

[John Stoutbeard]

How is that any different from nerfing a ship after several commanders have already maxed out in it or changing other aspects of the game where new players come in and have to struggle now to get to where everyone else is? Do you think any aspect of the game that makes it easier or harder than before is unfair for the veteran and/or new user?

We're not discussing other ships here, other nerfs, other boosts. We're discussing whether to allow for longer jumps / easier to get back from exploration. So I wont bite for now.
How would making it 'Easier' not reduce the accomplishment, both for now and in the future? This is key at least for me, and hopefully many others.
Easier for new people? When did this need to make it easier arise? Why do we need that?

Sorry, I do appreciate you trying to find a way to make exploration more interesting. But I don't agree with the way you suggested.
Improved content or mechanisms is part of it. Making it easier as a goal is not. To make it interesting should be.

But hey, let's agree that we disagree - I'll leave you thread alone for now.

 

[Senex VII]

Answering the OP's question: No, definitely not.

Perhaps one problem is that many people confuse exploring with tourism. They're two very different things. You can make money on a tourist jaunt by selling exploration data, but it's not necessarily exploration. Heading out to Sag A* or to this-or-that nebula and back is either pure tourism or it's exploration with a tourist excuse halfway. If you being a tourist rather than an explorer, perhaps it's no wonder that you want to get quickly.

Exploring tip: Don't go out-and-return, there-and-back. Instead, make a circular tour, or head out at random.

 

[Bacalao]

I considered that, and here's a few thoughts:
- The nature of human political control is such that a large diaspora would not be likely to happen unless humans change profoundly. Those in power would not want new colonies arising all over the galaxy because those might become powers some day and come back to haunt them. In fact I doubt the current situation - where anyone can buy an armed ship - would ever happen. Politicians would lose control over "their" populations way too fast and then there would be no value in being politicians.
- Human civilizations are resource-greedy and there may be a lot of interdependencies we don't understand right now. I think FD gets this more or less right with the various plagues and "Plugh Station needs medicine!" CGs. A human outpost 20,000ly away would be at much much greater risk of catastrophic - something - than one 100ly away, where help is hours not days away. Think back to the 12th/13th century on Earth where there were occasionally entire towns wiped out by raiders or pirates, or fire or famine or disease. Humans build vertically and horizontally integrated civilizations because we're more likely to survive if we do.

I would expect human "fringers" like the European settlers that colonized North America to break away and establish colonies way out, past political control. The Puritan religious fanatics that settled the East Coast of the US left England because they were so unpopular there, they looked for a place where they could go start anew. I would expect that sort of thing to be all over the galaxy of Elite, actually. Or, rather, their bones and the wreckage of their ships.. Pirates, famine, disease, hostile wildlife... It's a huge aspect of possible game-play that FD hasn't looked at, yet. "The Lost Colony" Or imagine what happens if the lost colony militarizes and the rest of human space encounters a psychopathic armed equivalent of Daesh? (and that's why in my first point above, I would expect human politicians to try to prevent that scenario)

Edit: I always liked the old "generations ship" scenario. Some crazy cult pools everything they can get their hands on and launches off to find a new eden. And when they get 1000ly out, they discover nobody thought to bring a can opener and they all die.

You raise excellent points, however despite multiple new world disasters, famines, wars, plagues, indigenous people, political intrigue, and 1,000 other complications to colonization, here I sit on the west coast of North America, and not as a citizen of what was once one of the greatest political and military powers in human history. Of course there are many other factors to be considered, but I think the theoretical value of habitable/exploitable systems thousands of light years from Sol is very real, but not because of how far it is from Sol, because of how close it is to other, local, habitable systems (had there just been a big pile of gold in the middle of the American great plains surrounded by a dry, barren scrubland from ocean to ocean I don't think I'd be here now.) Someone will always throw of the yoke and risk it all to establish a place they can be happy/prosperous/in charge/free if there is a place for them to get what they are after.

I so wish I could come across some derelicts, gen. ships or just things left behind, anything. Elite keeps teasing me with these possibilities, I sometimes feel like I am on the cusp of full immersion, I just need a little more to pull me in entirely to this gorgeous, expansive galaxy.

 

[gooddoc]

OP

You could make it so you can just pick any system you want & jump directly to it, explore, then jump back.

Make it really easy......but I don't think this is a good idea

 

[Surly_Badger]

I so wish I could come across some derelicts, gen. ships or just things left behind, anything.

I agree with that. I wish the universe of ED was populated with the wreckage of all the humans that had gone out and failed to come back. Lost colonies, burned hulks of explorer ships orbiting neutron stars, that kind of thing. We've certainly lost enough stuff out there that we'd occasionally stumble on it.

Edit: BTW, months ago I suggested that FD ought to persist lost/destroyed explorer ships. Then going and recovering (or stumbling on!) a black box would be a big deal because the data would be worth something. There is a lot of potential for cool mini-games around looking for black boxes in dead explorer ships; or causing explorer ships to die...

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Answering the OP's question: No, definitely not.

Perhaps one problem is that many people confuse exploring with tourism. They're two very different things. You can make money on a tourist jaunt by selling exploration data, but it's not necessarily exploration. Heading out to Sag A* or to this-or-that nebula and back is either pure tourism or it's exploration with a tourist excuse halfway. If you being a tourist rather than an explorer, perhaps it's no wonder that you want to get quickly.

Exploring tip: Don't go out-and-return, there-and-back. Instead, make a circular tour, or head out at random.

Actually, even 'exploration' is 'just tourism', because there is no exploration: there is virtually nothing there, just a placeholder. Many explorers want 'real exploration' with the current stuff thrown away and starting again: See the DDA on exploration.

 

[CMDR Alonso]

Would the people of the Elite universe go and colonise far far planets? YES, how do I know? We are supposely citizens of that universe when we play, and I (and many others) would definitely do it.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Actually, even 'exploration' is 'just tourism', because there is no exploration: there is virtually nothing there, just a placeholder.

You do realize that the real universe consists of:
A) nothing there
B) stuff that will kill you instantly
C) a vanishingly small amount of stuff that is neither A) nor B) - and that vanishingly small amount is amazingly self-similar

There's not a whole lot of interesting or valuable stuff out there, unless by "interesting" you mean "pretty" and by "valuable" you mean "some nerd at NASA would be very excited by it for a year or two"

 

[Brakespear]

Actually, even 'exploration' is 'just tourism', because there is no exploration: there is virtually nothing there, just a placeholder. Many explorers want 'real exploration' with the current stuff thrown away and starting again: See the DDA on exploration.

This.

Speaking as your typical wide-eyed exploration enthusiast, who made a couple of artsy time lapse videos you may have watched (I mention this just to establish how passionate I was about the whole space thing)... my last great trip into the void killed it for me.

I visited a nebula a fair distance away, full of black holes and dazzlingly-bright stars (I forget the designation), and after systematically scanning every black hole... I realised that I'd actually watched half the first season of Batman: The Animated Series. That's how lacking in interaction the whole experience was. I flew in straight lines a lot, and tried not to fall asleep.

I did this trip, spanning about 10,000 LY in total (I took the scenic route) in a hauler with no shields. In the end, I had seen absolutely nothing that I had not seen before... beyond variations in sky box.

I made it back in one piece, made a pile of money, and vowed... never again.

There's something very, very wrong with a game that can turn me off the idea of space exploration.

 

[Senex VII]

Actually, even 'exploration' is 'just tourism', because there is no exploration: there is virtually nothing there, just a placeholder. Many explorers want 'real exploration' with the current stuff thrown away and starting again: See the DDA on exploration.

Agreed. And interesting reading. But likely to happen? No.

Personally, I would engage in 'real exploration' without any incentive of recompense, simply for the joy. But if recompense were inescapable, then an overhaul to make it meaningful would be welcome. In either case, a "get me home" button with absurd jump ranges is not needed.

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize that the real universe consists of:
A) nothing there
B) stuff that will kill you instantly
C) a vanishingly small amount of stuff that is neither A) nor B) - and that vanishingly small amount is amazingly self-similar

There's not a whole lot of interesting or valuable stuff out there, unless by "interesting" you mean "pretty" and by "valuable" you mean "some nerd at NASA would be very excited by it for a year or two"

That is precisely what makes exploration what it is - finding the gems in the rough - and what makes it rewarding. It's no different from terrestrial exploration in that regard. (Try 'exploring" the Great Plains of America without becoming comatose.) Oh... of course in Elite we could combine the two, or does that involved the taboo subject of planetary landings?

 

[avow555]

apart from Stars and planets what do you expect to find.... a new branch of Tesco's ?

Minerals, fauna, lifeforms, radio signals, worm holes, comets, artifacts........

Stars and Planets only isn't much to find in the Galaxy.

 

[Pulchrit Ataraxis]

All I'd really ask for is a home base tether: designate an outpost as home base, so you can auto plot the route back, regardless of distance. The manual plot, when I'm done for the current trip, is the worst part of it for me.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

You do realize that the real universe consists of:
A) nothing there
B) stuff that will kill you instantly
C) a vanishingly small amount of stuff that is neither A) nor B) - and that vanishingly small amount is amazingly self-similar

There's not a whole lot of interesting or valuable stuff out there, unless by "interesting" you mean "pretty" and by "valuable" you mean "some nerd at NASA would be very excited by it for a year or two"

Of course I do. You have, deliberately or otherwise, completely misinterpreted my point. Read the DDA on exploration, and then you will see what I mean by 'nothing there'. There is a famous quote from Michael from last December when he said that there had not been, and there was no planned work on exploration because 'it is pretty solid', whereas there was planned work on other bits because they were not so solid. My response (recently - I seem to have missed the original) was that it is pretty solid because there is practically nothing there to break. If you look at the core stuff we need for exploration, things like the galaxy map, the galactic forge, travel, visuals, supercruise, ships, etc., etc., all needed to be there anyway for a game in the bubble. They were not built for exploration. SO what was built for exploration? A scanner or two to worry about in outfitting, a rattle and a beep or two when we do scanning, holding the information and selling it to UC, first discovered tags, and very little else. No wonder it is pretty solid.

 

[SMcA]

Well that's a stawman. I'll let you figure that one out.

I don't think that is an Aunt Sally (Straw Man)
Where is the logical fallacy?

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I don't think that is an Aunt Sally (Straw Man)
Where is the logical fallacy?

Straw men have nothing to do with logical fallacies. Straw man means putting words into another's mouth and then attacking those words.