Would you...? Fiscal experiment.

[Andovar]

The tricky thing is the range they can vary in.
...
The Sidewinder pilot cannot afford to pay 10,000 credits per tonne for fuel. That would make the contents of their 2t fuel tank more valuable than their entire ship! (Thought they could refill in about 45 seconds with a 1E scoop, costing only 310 credits)

I don't think it has to be that 'tricky'.
In your example, the sidewinder pilot just needs to check the map to find a 'cheap' system. The cost at extraction/boom could be 500cr a ton.

To be honest, I'm more interested in the 'flavor' this could add in the form of some dynamic missions and trading opportunities.

 

[Bigmaec]

So what do we billionaires and multibillionaires to do?

We play the game. Unshackled and free

 

[Sylow]

Basically, any fees would either be so trivial as to be unnoticeable (such as the current costs for fuel, ammo and repairs) or, if they were significant enough to notice, they'd probably be higher than the profit-margin for a lot of activities.

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Very much this. With the added disadvantage: the ones who would feel it the most would be those players, who don't have the money yet.
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I mean, just imagine that merely docking and undocking costs 50k credits each. I know, the number is far above and beyond any reason, but it's good do show the point. So, really, even if undocking would cost an insane 50k credits, it would not affect me much, if at all. I'd just run one more mission once a while and be fine. Now in contrast, look at the guy new to the game. He'd not even be able to launch, let alone to dock again.
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Now lower the numbers to something which the new player can afford. It will still affect him. He will feel like he's fighting an uphill battle, for that would be exactly what would happen. While us veterans would not notice it any more at all.
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In the end, I dare to say that FD gave up on the battle against credit inflation. The new currency is engineering materials. While you can get piles of credits in no time, it's still more effort to top off your storage of G5 materials. And while engineering got much better and material collection also will be a bit easier in Chapter 4, it's still limited. So materials are the real currency by now, while credits are more a decorative thing. I've seen this happen in many games, it was to be expected.
.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I don't think it has to be that 'tricky'.
In your example, the sidewinder pilot just needs to check the map to find a 'cheap' system. The cost at extraction/boom could be 500cr a ton.

To be honest, I'm more interested in the 'flavor' this could add in the form of some dynamic missions and trading opportunities.

Remember that:
a) The Sidewinder pilot only gets two or three jumps before their tank is basically empty - and short ones, at that, on the original 2E FSD - so there might not be an extraction/boom combination in range.
b) The Sidewinder pilot has been playing for only a little while and doesn't know which systems have the best fuel prices. The learning curve in Elite is always steep, but having to call out the Fuel Rats on your third jump because you can't afford to refuel to leave the system?
c) Even a "cheap" 500cr/T makes the 1E fuel scoop much better value for them - but the Sidewinder really can't spare a quarter of its internals for that permanently, so you'd end up with the workaround being to buy one, then fit it for a quick trip to the star and back, then store it and have it shipped to your new location to repeat the process.

 

[Mengy]

I mean, just imagine that merely docking and undocking costs 50k credits each. I know, the number is far above and beyond any reason, but it's good do show the point. So, really, even if undocking would cost an insane 50k credits, it would not affect me much, if at all. I'd just run one more mission once a while and be fine. Now in contrast, look at the guy new to the game. He'd not even be able to launch, let alone to dock again.

No, that's the wrong way to look at it. The new guy would be in a small ship docking on small pads which might only cost 1000cr for a docking fee. Eventually they'd work up to a medium ship which can do more profitable things but might cost 10,000cr to dock. Now in time they might even find themselves flying a large ship which might cost 100,000cr each time it docks.

The operating costs have a progression which ramp up along with the earning potential of each ship size. The costs are just a slower progression with respect to the faster profit progression with ship size. This would incentivize large ship flying while also demanding more strategy and careful decision making simultaneously, with the small and medium ships having lower profit potential but also more carefree to fly and operate.

If implemented well then new players would have no problem affording to fly.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

No, that's the wrong way to look at it. The new guy would be in a small ship docking on small pads which might only cost 1000cr for a docking fee. Eventually they'd work up to a medium ship which can do more profitable things but might cost 10,000cr to dock. Now in time they might even find themselves flying a large ship which might cost 100,000cr each time it docks.

A tricky thing here is that different professions have different "docks per credit" requirements.

Traders and Miners have to dock once for each completed task, so are very sensitive to the docking fees.

Combat pilots can stay out a very long time (with an endurance outfitting) without needing to dock - and can fit for better endurance: AFMUs, Repair Limpets, SRV to get synthesis mats to refill the AFMUs and Repair Limpets - better in a bigger ship.

Explorers can stay out for months or years without having to dock. Even with exploring being the least profitable per-hour, they'll still never notice the docking fees because it's ridiculously profitable per-dock.

 

[Mengy]

A tricky thing here is that different professions have different "docks per credit" requirements.

Traders and Miners have to dock once for each completed task, so are very sensitive to the docking fees.

Combat pilots can stay out a very long time (with an endurance outfitting) without needing to dock - and can fit for better endurance: AFMUs, Repair Limpets, SRV to get synthesis mats to refill the AFMUs and Repair Limpets - better in a bigger ship.

Explorers can stay out for months or years without having to dock. Even with exploring being the least profitable per-hour, they'll still never notice the docking fees because it's ridiculously profitable per-dock.

Certainly, but this is where the numbers balancing becomes important. Traders and miners have more docking fees but combat pilots have more repair bills and restocking fees. Explorers would really need maintenance mechanics implemented while out in deep space, not costing credits but gathered materials instead. One benefit of exploring would be few docking fees but you give up all of the bubble amenities too so its a trade off. Salvaging would need to be made more profitable, as would S&R flying.

 

[UmbraRex]

No, that's the wrong way to look at it. The new guy would be in a small ship docking on small pads which might only cost 1000cr for a docking fee. Eventually they'd work up to a medium ship which can do more profitable things but might cost 10,000cr to dock. Now in time they might even find themselves flying a large ship which might cost 100,000cr each time it docks.

The operating costs have a progression which ramp up along with the earning potential of each ship size. The costs are just a slower progression with respect to the faster profit progression with ship size. This would incentivize large ship flying while also demanding more strategy and careful decision making simultaneously, with the small and medium ships having lower profit potential but also more carefree to fly and operate.

If implemented well then new players would have no problem affording to fly.

Any fee structure minor enough not to cripple someone just starting out will be utterly unnoticeable to someone with hundreds of millions of credits.

 

[Sylow]

Any fee structure minor enough not to cripple someone just starting out will be utterly unnoticeable to someone with hundreds of millions of credits.

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Best way to say it. Perfect!
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[trollson]

When players amass large amounts of wealth in-game they could have the opportunity to use that wealth to engage in new forms of game-play which is orthogonal to their game play up until that point.

If players can amass such wealth, then longevity of the game requires that they can use (and lose) that wealth. But this cannot result in the sorts of inflation (financial or material) which excludes less wealthy or new players.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

We play the game. Unshackled and free

Completely agreed. Now I did spend my first year or so chasing credits, making ranks, gaining permits and unlocking engineers. It was a very busy time for me, however... once I stopped chasing credits, had all my ranks, all the engineers unlocked to G5, bought and outfitted and engineered all the ships... well darn it, that’s when I really started to actually enjoy the game. Now don’t get me wrong, playing the profiteer was fun too, but this became a whole new level of fun. I was free to go where I willed, do what I felt like, quit doing it when I felt like it... I went places and saw things I’d not have otherwise bothered with, and enjoyed it even more.

And now with the 11th looming closer, I am in a state to do something I’ve always wanted to do, but couldn’t stand doing before: real, long-range Exploration, as the mechanics of it no longer will totally suck. I’ll be shipping off for the galactic rim to complete circumnavigation followed by and edge-to-edge trip across the galaxy, through Sag A*.

This trip will begin after I buy and mothball a Mamba and Phantom, so probably on the 12th.

Stay tuned, I’ll be chronicling this trip here.

 

[Mo Ronik]

Yep, this would drain a new commander's bank account in just a few jumps. Then they'd rage quit at a faster rate than they do now and soon, thru attrition of the established players, there would be no one left to play the game. Just a big galaxy full of Thargoids that nobody visits anymore. I suppose they could make it on an income tier thing where your tax rate would be dependent on your credit account. Below a certain amount and you become a charity case looked down upon by the more well to do. Yes, let's make a class/caste system in ED. The only way to increase your class level is to marry into a rich family. I think at that point I'd sell everything off and just have one ship and a big tool box, donate all my credits "to the cause" and live the life of a space bum hanging out at a REZ picking the scraps of destroyed pirates. Oh what a life it will be...

 

[GunnerBill]

I'd go for that just so long as it's indexed to ship type


i.e docking and outfitting your Hauler is cheap

and docking and outfitting your Cutter is <ouch!>

 

[Bigmaec]

Completely agreed. Now I did spend my first year or so chasing credits, making ranks, gaining permits and unlocking engineers. It was a very busy time for me, however... once I stopped chasing credits, had all my ranks, all the engineers unlocked to G5, bought and outfitted and engineered all the ships... well darn it, that’s when I really started to actually enjoy the game. Now don’t get me wrong, playing the profiteer was fun too, but this became a whole new level of fun. I was free to go where I willed, do what I felt like, quit doing it when I felt like it... I went places and saw things I’d not have otherwise bothered with, and enjoyed it even more.

And now with the 11th looming closer, I am in a state to do something I’ve always wanted to do, but couldn’t stand doing before: real, long-range Exploration, as the mechanics of it no longer will totally suck. I’ll be shipping off for the galactic rim to complete circumnavigation followed by and edge-to-edge trip across the galaxy, through Sag A*.

This trip will begin after I buy and mothball a Mamba and Phantom, so probably on the 12th.

Stay tuned, I’ll be chronicling this trip here.

That. I'll rep you as soon as I can (stoopid mobile).
Looking forward for your chronicle.

 

[Hooplah]

As I see it per my immersion...

A docking fee is included in the refueling, repairs at a station.
Installation is included with the purchase of equipment.
Storing/installing core equipment already has a transfer fee.
Transferring ships or equipment to other stations can be very expensive.
Ship integrity maintenance fees increase with the ship size and can be very expensive.
SLF pilots hired get a salary whether in use no not.

So the current credit drain is satisfactory without adding more.

 

[Andovar]

Remember that:
a) The Sidewinder pilot only gets two or three jumps before their tank is basically empty - and short ones, at that, on the original 2E FSD - so there might not be an extraction/boom combination in range.
b) The Sidewinder pilot has been playing for only a little while and doesn't know which systems have the best fuel prices. The learning curve in Elite is always steep, but having to call out the Fuel Rats on your third jump because you can't afford to refuel to leave the system?
c) Even a "cheap" 500cr/T makes the 1E fuel scoop much better value for them - but the Sidewinder really can't spare a quarter of its internals for that permanently, so you'd end up with the workaround being to buy one, then fit it for a quick trip to the star and back, then store it and have it shipped to your new location to repeat the process.

Ok, then "free refills" for sidewinder pilots, or anyone with a harmless/penniless/aimless rank.

This really just comes down to balancing, which I'm confident they could do if they wanted to.

 

[Tsunamicom]

I would be against adding a new pay mechanic, unless the mechanic bundled existing pay mechanics into a simpler interface. Otherwise, it's just unnecessary fluff that you have to do each time.

If you want to RP a service fee, just envision that fee being already part of the current cost (such as refueling already has a minimum amount applied, which gets bundled into the overall refueling cost).

 

[Morbad]

Going back over my CMDR's mandatory expenses and sources of income, I realize it's now gotten to the point that he's making enough profit from fighting other CMDRs in self-defense to maintain his combat corvette.

We'll see how easy credits are to come by after the end of board flipping.
I'll bet a few of the 'omfg you board flip, you cheat and should be reported to FDEV' will be among the group that'll miss it.

I don't board flip and won't miss something that should neither exist nor is advantageous to my CMDR.

if the Beta's mission rewards are any indicator, almost no one is going to miss board flipping anyway.

Would pure trade and bounty hunting make the costs of fuel and repairs seem more meaningful? I'd be interested to hear from anyone who's tried it.

Not when a 30 minute trip to a RES, compromised NAV beacon, or even CZ, can easily bring in enough to cover the rebuys of my smaller vessels and a week's repairs and refuels for my largest ones.

While the mission b
oard payouts are the largest increase in income, bounty vouchers and combat bonds have risen significantly as well, while fuel and maintenance costs have actually gone down.

Too far gone for ideas around the economy. The only way things could work is if a new currency replaced or overtook credits as the defacto payment system.

To some commanders a few million credits is significant. To other commanders 10 billion credits is insignifant. The gap is too great. Any introduction of tax or more realistic credit sinks would hurt one group of players, and another wouldn't notice it. You'd be penalising various game play choices which is unfortunately a by product of not having systems in place from the start.

I like the ideas, but, as my mrs would typically say: stable door, horse bolted....

Make everyone destitute so we all start on equal footing! Problem solved.

Long before worrying about adding involuntary credit sinks to the game, they need to do a comprehensive balance pass on income across the board to make all activities worth performing from an economic perspective.

Some in-game activities are the equivalent of selling lemonade on a street corner in the boonies at 3am during a blizzard...they just shouldn't be profitable, no matter how badly someone wants to be a rural winter lemonade stand baron.

 

[Sterling MH]

If all you want is a credit sink

How about suggesting that the cosmetics become purchasable via credits? Make it last only until you change the paintjob after clicking "Apply" and only as long as that ship survives and is not sold, then you charge 5-50% of the base E rated purchase price, pick whatever % you want. You get a credit sink, death means just a little bit more, since more is at stake, purchasers get a permanent version for their permanent real cash, players get to try out the cosmetics (and if they like it enough will want to pay real cash to get it permanently).
The only ones not feasible via this plain method is suits. And that could be done with stripping it on your death or on your arrest.

 

[Pville_Piper]

No. I have a job already and I'd prefer that Fdev would work on developing new things and not the economy. There's plenty of things that need to be added to the game before fees and taxes... A long list I might add.