All alerts cleared at Mealstrom Oya - tissue samples are the way to go

[Ian Doncaster]

And hopefully FDev can do something about it, so if we do win a galactic wide narrative, we dont achieve that by relogging to desktop.

It's similar to the Guardian relic CGs: you can personally participate in those by relogging or not as you choose (I've never been in a position to take part at all), but the overall targets have to be set on the assumption that a significant number of players will choose the high-speed route, or the CG would finish in hours. So the targets are then set high so the CG lasts the week, which means that relogging is required to get it anywhere near completion.

Most of the activities in the Thargoid War - tissue sampling, commodities, passengers, AX combat in invasions and control systems - don't require or benefit from relogging. And at the moment, the Orthrus hunting isn't decisive even in Alerts. So in this case it's very much like Guardian relic CGs in the context of CGs in general: they're a mess, but they're a small enough part of the whole thing that it's not really a problem for the big picture.

The problem, as mentioned in other threads, is that Orthrus hunting is useless unless relogged - other ways of clearing the Alerts are much more efficient because the Orthrus are too rare. Even relogged to get maximum efficiency at the cost of realism, they're still not the most efficient method. Essentially the issue which causes relogging (in any game...) is "rare and non-deterministic but powerful". So to fix it Frontier need to:
- make Orthrus less powerful for progress so no-one bothers with them (doesn't really fit the concept)
- make Orthrus less rare by making them show up everywhere - and then also make them less powerful (doesn't really fit their concept either)
- make them rare but deterministic: e.g. Orthrus signal sources will show up in very large numbers in a system at a specific time, then disappear entirely for a few hours. Relogging doesn't change what time it is, so you either catch them while they're migrating through or you don't. Figuring out the times in advance is how you avoid hanging around in supercruise for hours waiting for them rather than getting on with something else.

 

[Sighman]

The Orthrus is probably so rare by design, so cheesing it by relogging is the only way to farm them (relog farming whatever you want to farm should really be nuked in my opinion). Seeing how quickly alert systems are cleared now I would also not be surprised if the influence of tissue samples got rebalanced sooner than later. Mark my words, nerf incoming.

Relogging doesn't create new Signal Sources so it's not an option, and thus does not need nuking.

Ironic if they expected us to clear alert systems this quickly from the start, and because we didn't we've allowed the Thargoids to take over 1000 systems.

Side question:
Does each research limpet controller allow another sample? I attached eight research limpets from a 7A multi, they all came back successfully and I ended up with only 1 sample from all 8.

 

[Sighman]

So to fix it Frontier need to:

4. Offer Orthrus hunting/sampling missions at stations in surrounding systems, with a nice blue mission POI in an Alert system where you are guaranteed to find one.

 

[Brrokk]

Relogging doesn't create new Signal Sources so it's not an option, and thus does not need nuking.

Ironic if they expected us to clear alert systems this quickly from the start, and because we didn't we've allowed the Thargoids to take over 1000 systems.

Side question:
Does each research limpet controller allow another sample? I attached eight research limpets from a 7A multi, they all came back successfully and I ended up with only 1 sample from all 8.

That was the sampling bug. If you'd been lucky you would have had 8. When the limpets are on the way back you can see on the radar which ones carry samples.

 

[Northpin]

4. Offer Orthrus hunting/sampling missions at stations in surrounding systems, with a nice blue mission POI in an Alert system where you are guaranteed to find one.

This

Absolutely not needed to to fly aimlessly to hunt for a NHSS.
I mean, this may work for fluff like a HGE, but in an all out war there should be scouts (lore wise, not necessarily visible/active npc) that should report for Orthrus presence.
Make the missions run on a short timer - not 10-15 minutes like they do for on-foot Defend missions, but not 8h either.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

Agreed, Orthrus missions would be nice. Fingers crossed for U15 ! (not really)

 

[Ian Doncaster]

4. Offer Orthrus hunting/sampling missions at stations in surrounding systems, with a nice blue mission POI in an Alert system where you are guaranteed to find one.

That would definitely be a good way to get rare but deterministic.

(And would also make defending Alerts deeper in their territory which don't have surrounding safe systems much less likely to have them, which would be a feature)

 

[Pville_Piper]

You forgot to add "we shall relog the hell out of them"

I didn't notice that until after. Got busy, meant to comment on it. Personally, although I have done it with engineering solutions such as Dav's Hope and Jameisons Cobra, I find doing this to be quite distasteful and to do it to solve a problem with major feature is unacceptable.

I personally think that FDev has underestimated the amount of work it takes to fight this war and how much players are interested in and will retain engagement in... I think it will grind on far too long, with little else to replace it. And to that extent I've resisted adding my thoughts to a couple of threads on "What's Next" because I honestly don't know.

 

[Pville_Piper]

Oh, and just to be clear: I fully agree to that. Relogging needs to be gone. Everywhere, if you ask me.

The issue with this is missions would at a higher rate, particularly given FDevs perceived ability to fix them, as this is they only way to get some missions to spawn correctly. The other thing is things like Jameisons Cobra and Dav's Hope, tell me that they wasn't put in the game precisely to relog... Nobody is going to repeatedly fly out there to mine a couple of items and fly away. Jameisons has a bit of lore attached to it, but, really...

It's a mechanic that they have allowed into the game to fix issues and fix overly time-consuming engineering and some are using it to fix the war.

 

[Pville_Piper]

This

Absolutely not needed to to fly aimlessly to hunt for a NHSS.
I mean, this may work for fluff like a HGE, but in an all out war there should be scouts (lore wise, not necessarily visible/active npc) that should report for Orthrus presence.
Make the missions run on a short timer - not 10-15 minutes like they do for on-foot Defend missions, but not 8h either.

I remember the bad old days, of hunting for signal sources by flying around a system endlessly, waiting for them to spawn... Another lesson yet unlearned?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I personally think that FDev has underestimated the amount of work it takes to fight this war and how much players are interested in and will retain engagement in...

I think it depends on the source of motivation of the players to start with. People have supported Political BGS or Powerplay sides for years with far less dynamism than the war has had.

(To some extent what many players of that sort want is a static system, of course, because then they can be confident that progress reflects on them rather than them getting un/lucky with Frontier adjustments. The Thargoid War isn't suitable for settling into that state yet, certainly.)

 

[Brrokk]

I think it depends on the source of motivation of the players to start with. People have supported Political BGS or Powerplay sides for years with far less dynamism than the war has had.

(To some extent what many players of that sort want is a static system, of course, because then they can be confident that progress reflects on them rather than them getting un/lucky with Frontier adjustments. The Thargoid War isn't suitable for settling into that state yet, certainly.)

Motivation and commitment are going to be a problem. I'm enjoying Thargoid combat lately, but I don't see myself doing it for weeks on end. It's good for a change, but I was planning to carry on with exploration and exobiology soon.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Offer Orthrus hunting/sampling missions at stations in surrounding systems, with a nice blue mission POI in an Alert system where you are guaranteed to find one.

Very much so, but offered from within the Alert system itself like with Faction war massacre missions, and separated from the action of moving items to a Rescue megaship:

• Hunt an Orthrus
• Deliver Cyclops/Basilisk/Medusa/Hydra samples
• Kill a Cyclops/Basilisk/Medusa/Hydra
• Recover salvage
• Transport damaged pods to Rescue megaship (reinstating follow-up missions for this)
• Transport corrosive samples to research facility.

All non-transport of those with associated mission signals as an alternative to waiting for signals, potentially with some form of triangulation involved if the Orthrus is supposed to be at least a bit elusive. While we are at it, existing missions such as "Kill 4 Medusa Interceptors" should also provide a mission signal with a Medusa until completed, like with pirates of a specific faction. Pirate massacres are a great example of having a healthy choice to use the mission signals or drop at a RES.

Also, setting missions aside, an even more simple step towards sanity in Alert systems would just be for existing signals to have a meaningful encounter given their Threat level. Perhaps give Orthrus signals a unique name and move them up to Concentrated sources on the FSS (where the incoming Maelstroms were), then for other sources let Threat 4 be Scouts and Threat 5–8 be different Interceptors, and let Nonhuman, AX weapons, AX ships and Combat aftermath be different scenarios in which they occur.

 

[Planewalker]

4. Offer Orthrus hunting/sampling missions at stations in surrounding systems, with a nice blue mission POI in an Alert system where you are guaranteed to find one.

Now that is a really good idea.


To me it seems like the conceptual idea of the orthrus is that it scouts the system it's in, and if it meets too heavy resistance the system is deemed undesirable.
-the question is if that is working as it is supposed to; ie does killing them and sampling them along with destroying probes mark the system undesirable.
(do we even know if the probes have a mechanic tied to them or are they just for show currently(the orthrus are picking them up after all))

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

(do we even know if the probes have a mechanic tied to them or are they just for show currently(the orthrus are picking them up after all))

When tissue samples are collected, they have a hidden system name "tag" attached saying where they originated. The probes don't. Sooo while it's not a definitive answer, it's a good indicator that the probes have no influence.

 

[Planewalker]

When tissue samples are collected, they have a hidden system name "tag" attached saying where they originated. The probes don't. Sooo while it's not a definitive answer, it's a good indicator that the probes have no influence.

Bummer. Could have been an interesting mechanic if we could collect them and then dump them where we wanted the thargoids to attack to lure them into a trap.

 

[Wlfric]

Question: How to get around the constant research limpet failures? I've launched 8 and all 8 fail when they get back to my ship. Last night I blew through 32 and was able to get one sample. Is there a trick to doing it?

 

[Wlfric]

- make them rare but deterministic: e.g. Orthrus signal sources will show up in very large numbers in a system at a specific time, then disappear entirely for a few hours. Relogging doesn't change what time it is, so you either catch them while they're migrating through or you don't. Figuring out the times in advance is how you avoid hanging around in supercruise for hours waiting for them rather than getting on with something else.

Which would be a "don't bother" for players that can't camp out at a computer all day long waiting for that "special time" or are otherwise engaged in Real Life during such migrations.
I think perhaps a way to bait them might be nice. Like drop a probe you got elsewhere and kill the Orthrus that shows up to sniff around for the probe signal.

 

[PapaDragon_I]

Question: How to get around the constant research limpet failures? I've launched 8 and all 8 fail when they get back to my ship. Last night I blew through 32 and was able to get one sample. Is there a trick to doing it?

Yeah, that´s frustrating. We had such Problems as well and the only solution we found is to do the sampling with more cmdr. It seems to be random who get those bad rates. If you´re probing on your own i think scouts would be much easier as they don´t do so much damage and mostly have better rates.
Another thing you can try is to use an extra research limpet controller in your 1er slots. That also probatly makes the chances higher.

 

[Jmanis]

Question: How to get around the constant research limpet failures? I've launched 8 and all 8 fail when they get back to my ship. Last night I blew through 32 and was able to get one sample. Is there a trick to doing it?

Yeah, that´s frustrating. We had such Problems as well and the only solution we found is to do the sampling with more cmdr. It seems to be random who get those bad rates. If you´re probing on your own i think scouts would be much easier as they don´t do so much damage and mostly have better rates.
Another thing you can try is to use an extra research limpet controller in your 1er slots. That also probatly makes the chances higher.

Yeah... there is no solution. It used to be 100%, then for 5 years it was considered bugged and resulted in two cg cancellations... then the fix was to just consider the bug a feature and wipe hands of it.