Guardian SLFs Too weak to be used against Thargoids

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

I have been trying out the guardian fighters recently after a long time of not using them and unfortunately they have become useless.
First of all, too weak to even withstand Thargoid damage (No idea why they are not protectetd against phasing damage if they have guardian shield). Then all Thargoid vesels in an AXCZ target them as if they were the biggest enemy of all, completely ignoring the mothership and other NPCs.

Second, there is no way to avoid thargoid damage as they dont have any Heatsinks or Silent running available. Third, Casutic damage resistance in those little ships is not helpful at all as their HP is too low, they die in a few seconds after getting touched by caustic.
And finally, the Crew AI. They do know how to attack thargoids (So well they even crash directly against it) but, right after I destroy an Interceptor/Scout, they fly through the caustic cloud.

Guardian Figthers are a great addition to the game, however, with the recent changes of the thargoid AI, they are, in short words, not helpful. I politely request a change in the stats of the figthers and the AI for crew if possible.

Report in the Issue Tracker : https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/61739 (Please add a contribution)

 

[Darth Ender]

guardian tech failed against thargoids millions of years ago. why would it work now?


the sheer numbers and precursors to guardian ai sentinals is what was at least somewhat effective against them... millions of years ago.

even those wouldn't make much sense to still be effective now. unless they exploited some integral weakness to how thargoid bio tech works. but humanity already figured that out decades ago and thargoids seemed to have adapted already. so again, it makes no sense that ancient tech would be effective.

humanity is already beyond the effectiveness that guardians ever were against the thargoids. we haven't needed to depend on an ai slave race to beat them, and we have beaten them once already with barely any causalities. we are currently facing a force the guardians never did and are holding our own.

 

[XenoZera]

guardian tech failed against thargoids millions of years ago. why would it work now?


the sheer numbers and precursors to guardian ai sentinals is what was at least somewhat effective against them... millions of years ago.

even those wouldn't make much sense to still be effective now. unless they exploited some integral weakness to how thargoid bio tech works. but humanity already figured that out decades ago and thargoids seemed to have adapted already. so again, it makes no sense that ancient tech would be effective.

Canonically, thargoids have barely changed since the guardians won against them. They only seem to have started changing significantly in the last few months

They should be marginally better than a human AX ship with the same weapon if we can't engineer either of them.
The guardians were supposed to have incredibly strong shield technology well before having AI or anything like that, so theres plenty of reasons why guardian fighters deserve a buff.

 

[Darth Ender]

Canonically, thargoids have barely changed since the guardians won against them. They only seem to have started changing significantly in the last few months

They should be marginally better than a human AX ship with the same weapon if we can't engineer either of them.
The guardians were supposed to have incredibly strong shield technology well before having AI or anything like that, so theres plenty of reasons why guardian fighters deserve a buff.

if the guardian tech was effective against thargoids they wouldn't have needed their ai answer to them after losing significantly against what was just an initial wave.

the historic record shows no evidence of better than humanity tech in regards to offense/defense. they sucked hard against a thargoids wave that humanity would have been able to cover up and hide while defeating so that nobody would believe they even existed.

 

[XenoZera]

if the guardian tech was effective against thargoids they wouldn't have needed their ai answer to them after losing significantly against what was just an initial wave.

the historic record shows no evidence of better than humanity tech in regards to offense/defense. they sucked hard against a thargoids wave that humanity would have been able to cover up and hide while defeating so that nobody would believe they even existed.

That's a lot of assumptions for a lack of information we have

Known facts:
Guardians and Cyclops, basilisks, and Medusa's at least, fought
Guardians held their own for a little while but were force to retreat
An AI was created when remote-controlled fighters were no longer a reliable strategy
The AI won

Thats it
For all we know, the only difference was tactics or an ability to overwhelm with automated construction, not new weapons or new technology. We have nothing that points to that.

So, there is no reason why a guardian fighter should instantly pop like they do right now.

We're not saying "make guardian fighters overpowered", we're saying "can they have any use whatsoever since they're also useless vs human ships?"

Nothing about what you're saying that can be supported with the game refutes the idea that the fighters should be useful against thargoids.

 

[Schmack]

guardian tech failed against thargoids millions of years ago. why would it work now?

IRL I'd buy that for sure, as it's common sense. In a game where this alien tech was put behind a massive grind wall, not so much. If Guardian tech is useless against the Thargoids it should not be behind a grind wall, since it's not useful. It's basically the next level of power creep against the Goids, so the excuse that it didn't work then, why should it work now, that was decided against when it was introduced and put behind that grind wall. Imagine engineered ships being no better than the base models.

the sheer numbers and precursors to guardian ai sentinals is what was at least somewhat effective against them... millions of years ago.

even those wouldn't make much sense to still be effective now. unless they exploited some integral weakness to how thargoid bio tech works. but humanity already figured that out decades ago and thargoids seemed to have adapted already. so again, it makes no sense that ancient tech would be effective.

humanity is already beyond the effectiveness that guardians ever were against the thargoids. we haven't needed to depend on an ai slave race to beat them, and we have beaten them once already with barely any causalities. we are currently facing a force the guardians never did and are holding our own.

Again, grind wall says this probably wasn't the intended narrative even though it makes sense.

 

[Morbad]

A human pilot can kite around Thargoid swarms well enough with them, but they are inferior to other SLFs in almost every practical way. It would be nice if they had something more tangible going for them.

 

[Darth Ender]

That's a lot of assumptions for a lack of information we have

Known facts:
Guardians and Cyclops, basilisks, and Medusa's at least, fought
Guardians held their own for a little while but were force to retreat
An AI was created when remote-controlled fighters were no longer a reliable strategy
The AI won

Thats it
For all we know, the only difference was tactics or an ability to overwhelm with automated construction, not new weapons or new technology. We have nothing that points to that.

So, there is no reason why a guardian fighter should instantly pop like they do right now.

millions of years old tech from a race that needed an ai slave race to do less well against thargoids that humans have had even without borrowing guardian tech. meanwhile thargoids have survived their battles with the guardian ai. they obviously can adapt and learn from their enemies.

that's plenty of reason.

Nothing about what you're saying that can be supported with the game refutes the idea that the fighters should be useful against thargoids.

I'm pretty sure the game does suggest thargoids should be plenty beyond the ability of guardians given how long it takes them to adapt to humans. it's more that their crap lore writing is lacking compatibility with the game implementation.

 

[Darth Ender]

IRL I'd buy that for sure, as it's common sense. In a game where this alien tech was put behind a massive grind wall, not so much. If Guardian tech is useless against the Thargoids it should not be behind a grind wall, since it's not useful. It's basically the next level of power creep against the Goids, so the excuse that it didn't work then, why should it work now, that was decided against when it was introduced and put behind that grind wall. Imagine engineered ships being no better than the base models.

Again, grind wall says this probably wasn't the intended narrative even though it makes sense.

the grind wall of guardian stuff could be considered effective against other human ships. not an alien race that has advanced millions of years beyond the level they were when guardian tech was actively in use by their inventors. that would still make the grind wall make sense and make the thargoids make sense.

that would be the behaviour that makes the best sense.


thargoids should be an impossible enemy that players, humanity, any race... can only hope to have temporary and limited wins against. they should be impossibly advanced, scary, and something only the best pilots can survive.

this war should be about finding a way to survive... give the thargoids what they want or convince them it's elsewhere. there is no hope to actually defeat them or stop them by force. at least, there shouldn't be.

guardians were losers. they made mistakes that even humanity solved better (survived our own ai) and besides a couple areas they actually advanced further than humanity in, they died from their own incompetence.

maybe we could utilize the tech from the ai that defeated them, but that wouldn't be guardian stuff.

edit: it makes no sense for the game to make thargoids basically a variant of a human npc you can just farm. they should have a unique role and offer a tier to combat beyond any human npc that's harder and not just need specific modules. this arms race of buffing player effectiveness against thargoids just eliminates what makes them the galaxy's boogie men. it's stupid and doesn't really show a vision of the future for the game series. not without inconsistent writing where things get rebalanced and we all have to ignore established lore.

guardian slf should reflect how ineffective guardians were against thargoids and why they needed to hand over war and defense to the guardian ai system.

and where is the guardian ai now? why don't we see evidence of them everywhere in the millions of years they've had to do whatever they want if they defeated the goids and guardians? i think we don't see evidence of them because thargoids did what they were doing now to us soon after guardian ai defeated their makers. and the ai fell. leaving nothing but dormant ruins.

that too would make the most sense. thargoids killed them off.

 

[XenoZera]

millions of years old tech from a race that needed an ai slave race to do less well against thargoids that humans have had even without borrowing guardian tech. meanwhile thargoids have survived their battles with the guardian ai. they obviously can adapt and learn from their enemies.

that's plenty of reason.

I'm pretty sure the game does suggest thargoids should be plenty beyond the ability of guardians given how long it takes them to adapt to humans. it's more that their crap lore writing is lacking compatibility with the game implementation.

the logs say the AI basically had no issue fighting the thargoids, so again, you're saying things that arent supported by the evidence we have

they obviously can adapt and learn from their enemies

...and fdev has directly told us they change extremely slowly over time, we have logs saying the guardians fought with the same cyclops, basilisks and medusa we have now (if they were significantly different, it is unlikely the obelisks would have recognized the tissue samples)

There are no reason, both gameplay and narrative, to have these SLF pop immediately like they do

I do not understand why you want the game to be less fun, less cool, and to have even more things for people to waste their time on and get frustrated with the game.
Im fine complaining about ludonarrative dissonance, but lets not pretend the guardian fighters should be immediately dying to thargoids. Thats just silly. Youre literally saying "i want the game to have fewer options, be less fun, and completely ignore the lore they give us" for no reason.

 

[XenoZera]

the grind wall of guardian stuff could be considered effective against other human ships. not an alien race that has advanced millions of years beyond the level they were when guardian tech was actively in use by their inventors. that would still make the grind wall make sense and make the thargoids make sense.

that would be the behaviour that makes the best sense.


thargoids should be an impossible enemy that players, humanity, any race... can only hope to have temporary and limited wins against. they should be impossibly advanced, scary, and something only the best pilots can survive.

this war should be about finding a way to survive... give the thargoids what they want or convince them it's elsewhere. there is no hope to actually defeat them or stop them by force. at least, there shouldn't be.

guardians were losers. they made mistakes that even humanity solved better (survived our own ai) and besides a couple areas they actually advanced further than humanity in, they died from their own incompetence.

maybe we could utilize the tech from the ai that defeated them, but that wouldn't be guardian stuff.

edit: it makes no sense for the game to make thargoids basically a variant of a human npc you can just farm. they should have a unique role and offer a tier to combat beyond any human npc that's harder and not just need specific modules. this arms race of buffing player effectiveness against thargoids just eliminates what makes them the galaxy's boogie men. it's stupid and doesn't really show a vision of the future for the game series. not without inconsistent writing where things get rebalanced and we all have to ignore established lore.

guardian slf should reflect how ineffective guardians were against thargoids and why they needed to hand over war and defense to the guardian ai system.

and where is the guardian ai now? why don't we see evidence of them everywhere in the millions of years they've had to do whatever they want if they defeated the goids and guardians? i think we don't see evidence of them because thargoids did what they were doing now to us soon after guardian ai defeated their makers. and the ai fell. leaving nothing but dormant ruins.

that too would make the most sense. thargoids killed them off.

Considering all the permit locked systems around, lets not pretend there's no trace, and also why are the beacons still active and completely unrelated to guardian ruins?

The beacons are likely part of the construct network post-guardians, as the "monolith network" the game refers to are NOT the beacons.

 

[XenoZera]

i disagree entirely that thargoids should be insurmountable. That's just silly fatalism

 

[Fizzatron]

I think there's room for a Guardian SLF buff. Caustic damage resistance would be a good start IMO, and due to their size the possibility they can charge the exterior to burn it off almost instantaneously in the place of a heatsink launcher.

 

[XenoZera]

I think there's room for a Guardian SLF buff. Caustic damage resistance would be a good start IMO, and due to their size the possibility they can charge the exterior to burn it off almost instantaneously in the place of a heatsink launcher.

Yeah like i dont think its unreasonable to ask for the tools that we have be useful if we are also still using guardian weapons to kill thargoids.

Again, im not asking for SLF's to become pre-nerf Corvette, just that they survive a cyclops cannon at least for a few seconds.

 

[Kira Goto]

Considering all the permit locked systems around, lets not pretend there's no trace, and also why are the beacons still active and completely unrelated to guardian ruins?

The beacons are likely part of the construct network post-guardians, as the "monolith network" the game refers to are NOT the beacons.

I don’t think this is worth arguing. Waste of energy - he’s so convinced about the human supremacy the Club’s been throwing propaganda out about for the last few years, that it hasn’t occurred to him that his entire argument falls apart based on one single point.

Reverse-engineered Guardian technology.

You know, that thing from the dead species, without which we would be fighting the Thargoids not even half as effectively as we are now. Our own, self-developed tech is so badly behind that of the Thargoids that it takes multiple ships with a standard, non-Guardian loadout to adequately match one Medusa(also applies to the Basilisk to a lesser degree, I suppose). And just forget about a Hydra.

But yeah, sure, we’re totally using Guardian tech because they were so awful at fighting the Thargoids with it. I also wouldn’t call locking them up in a stalemate where it eventually just becomes impossible to push a Titan’s sphere of influence back “winning” or “doing better than the Guardians”. We don’t even know if they had to deal with Titans, or possibly worse.

(And I find it likely that the Titans may have been involved to some degree - I kind of doubt the Thargoids just had these massive warships built without any intention to use them for years after their initial resurgence.)

 

[Elpapo]

pre-nerf Corvette.

Err, what exacly is pre-nerf vette?

Been around since launch at 2014, but never heard anything about nerfs or buffs to corvette ever since that ship was added into game.

 

[XenoZera]

I don’t think this is worth arguing. Waste of energy - he’s so convinced about the human supremacy the Club’s been throwing propaganda out about for the last few years, that it hasn’t occurred to him that his entire argument falls apart based on one single point.

Reverse-engineered Guardian technology.

You know, that thing from the dead species, without which we would be fighting the Thargoids not even half as effectively as we are now. Our own, self-developed tech is so badly behind that of the Thargoids that it takes multiple ships with a standard, non-Guardian loadout to adequately match one Medusa(also applies to the Basilisk to a lesser degree, I suppose). And just forget about a Hydra.

But yeah, sure, we’re totally using Guardian tech because they were so awful at fighting the Thargoids with it. I also wouldn’t call locking them up in a stalemate where it eventually just becomes impossible to push a Titan’s sphere of influence back “winning” or “doing better than the Guardians”. We don’t even know if they had to deal with Titans, or possibly worse.

(And I find it likely that the Titans may have been involved to some degree - I kind of doubt the Thargoids just had these massive warships built without any intention to use them for years after their initial resurgence.)

Yeah you're probably correct. I'm a little amazed someone could deny that guardian tech is actually good against thargoids. Its narratively and in-gameplay genuinely good technology.

 

[XenoZera]

Err, what exacly is pre-nerf vette?

Been around since launch at 2014, but never heard anything about nerfs or buffs to corvette ever since that ship was added into game.

There was a an old layout, before the game fully launched, that had more DPS than anaconda (the way the game should be). it had more larges than it currently does.

 

[Elpapo]

There was a an old layout, before the game fully launched, that had more DPS than anaconda (the way the game should be). it had more larges than it currently does.

This was nothing else than a typo on dev's part shortly before ship was added with 1.5 patch(vette was not ready yet at launch)...
But that still caused some outrage on these forums, if I recall it correctly.

Donno why ppl insist call that a nerf since vette was never relased in such form, and even ship model itself, specifically its medium hardpoints wich "supposed" be large, aint really look like these would fit larger ones, neither these are not oversized at any way, only to be changed into medium at very last moment before relase.... thats why I not buyin any arguments that it was "nerfed", but more like it was designed in such way, like its now.

 

[XenoZera]

This was nothing else than a typo on dev's part shortly before ship was added with 1.5 patch(vette was not ready yet at launch)...
But that still caused some outrage on these forums, if I recall it correctly.

Donno why ppl insist call that a nerf since vette was never relased in such form, and even ship model itself, specifically its medium hardpoints wich "supposed" be large, aint really look like these would fit larger ones, neither these are not oversized at any way, only to be changed into medium at very last moment before relase.... thats why I not buyin any arguments that it was "nerfed", but more like it was designed in such way, like its now.

Valid, but still only tangential to the original point.