What if we got something to do with the Thargoids that wasn't just killing them?

[Firehawk894]

Now yes yes I know this post will most likely be taken over with Starship Trooper-esque "OnLy GoOd BuG iS a DeAd OnE"

But here me out... what if the people who are Pro-Xeno got like... literally any form of content for the first time since the game was created? Anti-Xeno people have always been the favoured crowd of the two, the entire game always had content for them to do that actually felt like a gameplay loop. Whereas from what I've heard from PX people, the only 'gameplay' they have even today is a choice of either:

• Attack AX players while they are in combat to defend Thargoids
• Feed Thargoid interceptors meta alloys in neutral locations

Two problems though. Firstly, most AX players tend to only play in the collection of AX focused PG's where they can affect the thargoid war safely without any means of reprisal.
Per the second, feeding the thargoid interceptors meta alloys accomplishes nothing? It has no effect on the game and is just largely a waste of a PX commanders time. Hell, even feeding meta alloys isn't a PX thing because people use meta alloys to summon more thargoids to fight from interdiction .

Now I know, I know. The entire past 3 updates/1.5 years have been solely AX content, but maybe... just maybe, before the last Titan is killed for trying to protect it's species from a genocide. The PX people could get a chance to do literally anything to end the war that isn't just "Let's genocide the thargoids but HARDER"

 

[Shurimal]

The ultimate goal in any war must be peace.

We have provoked the Thargoids beyond all negotiations, especially after Damnation's Proteus Wave fiasco. Only thing left to do at this moment is to push back the invasion and demonstrate that we are a force capable of fighting back, that we are equals, that destruction will be mutual. Only then we can and absolutely must start negotiatons for peace. Also, we must accept fault for this war and offer reparations—decolonize the nebulas, ban meta-alloy trade, offer other amendments. "No country in history has ever benefitted from prolonged warfare" (Sun Tzu, Art of War)—I'm sure the Thargoids understand this, no matter how alien they are. I'm less sure our leaders understand that, being bone-headed warmongers that they are.

Personally, I think Seo Jin-Ae could be our prime ambassador and should become a figurehead of xeno-peace (and a head of a new powerplay faction).

 

[Kira Goto]

and demonstrate that we are a force capable of fighting back, that we are equals, that destruction will be mutual

A. Assumes they are not aware we’d be like fish out of water without reverse-engineered Guardian tech. (And/or they don’t figure out a way to neutralize it completely)

B. The mycoid didn’t convince them to not start another war. How would we know this weapon will, instead of making them even more annoyed (while we are blasting their hive ships which only really have sufficiently powerful defense turrets to ward off unwary or careless explorers in a lightly armored ship)? Not to mention the presence of Guardian technology still tends to upset them quite a lot.

 

[Codger]

I can't think of anything I'd want to do with them.

 

[amigacooke]

I can't think of anything I'd want to do with them.

How about a nice game of chess?

 

[aRJay]

How about a nice game of chess?

Too warlike, how about a Buckyball race?

 

[Ozric]

Two problems though. Firstly, most AX players tend to only play in the collection of AX focused PG's where they can affect the thargoid war safely without any means of reprisal.

This is going to be the only warning I give. If you want to discuss the affect modes have on the game, then you go to Hotel California. Keep it out of the main forums!

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I know I'm going to get a stern look from the RP crowd, but this point in the story (yes, this is a story we are being told by the game master Frontier) the "maybe we can have peace with them" approach has gone out the window. There have been many whacky theories about "making peace", communicating with them or that hidden long-term Thargoid reputation balance, but after two attempted genocides by humanity and a clear hostile invasion of the Thargoids we're in the "it's them or us" phase. If you think at this point something else is possible, you might be the people having the rooftop party in Independence Day.

Nobody knows how this story arc will actually end, there's still a few loose ends like Seo whatsherface and Mr. upload-my-mind-to-the-MCP, and it's going to be a few weeks or months until the conclusion, but long term the story is set in its ways isn't suddenly going to do a 180. This may be a bummer for the pro-goid-roleplayers, But everytime a game chooses a story path there are bound to be people dissatisfied with it. Such is the lot in life. Unlimited freedom and free choices are an illusion in games. We have limited influence, but in the end the game master is telling their story.

But hey, maybe Seo whatever her name is will get her Deus Ex Machina moment.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

There really isn't much in the way of pro-internal-human-peace gameplay possible either. You can't sabotage the Frontline Solutions Vultures which happily drop off thousands of combatants for both sides in some pointless war to slaughter each other. You can't easily deter factions from fighting each other (other than by pushing one of them to an "ultimate victory" state in the system which leaves none of the others anything to fight over) and even out of wartime they'll be constantly hiring covert ops forces to massacre each others' civilian population. You can't rescue slaves (it's illegal to try, even in systems which nominally outlaw slavery itself). You can't do very much which doesn't prop up some human-vs-human warmonger or another, and the only provided way to oppose them is by promoting one of their equally unpleasant rivals instead.

The aliens who don't even speak the same language aren't going to get better treatment than that.

 

[Rochester]

The deeper-story hints that the Thargoids could have been two races, this origin I suspect was explored earlier on by FD, but then discarded. There is partial information gleaned from a handful of sources that the narrative had alternative origins but nothing is certain. It’s is however possible to put together various bits of information to identify that the goids were only ever utilising resources in their territory, which preceded humans by thousands or millions of years. It’s also possible to assume that their aggression was never actually originally alien, in that there are indications of human experimentation being performed prior to their rediscovery; and that a certain group or systems controlled by one group, were only ever their true targets, of human on human/goid conflict.

The current threat, is likely, it could be assumed to be the ‘real’ Thargoids presence. Acting as re-enforcement.

But again assessing their behaviour they do not look to be actively eradicating humanity, which they evidently could do, based upon the Guardian archives, if they wished, but rather they seem to have been focusing their efforts towards looking for something. Again this was hinted at by FD. They are also alien, with alien intent and are greatly an unknown entity, who possibly, if we accept the Guardian narrative are not driven by selfish, individual motives, but are a collective entity, driven by survival and the cultivation of resources over thousands of years.

We’re just in the wrong place, and if we accepted the insight from the Guardians, at best an insignificance to them. At most the worst we could ever do is to interfere with them.

In regards to the ‘peaceful’ approach aspect, it’s evident that FD have not provided us those tools for a reason.

Either to force our hand down a particular desired path, or that at some historical nexus, we the community collectively were given the option, but we decided to go towards this direction of aggression ourselves, due to it being the path of least resistance, and the only game content applicable (pew-pew) at that time.

It stands a more interesting question, what would have FD done, if players had simply ignored the Thargoids, if we want peaceful gameplay, the best action would be to simply ignore them, and let them do their worst. I believe FD would have reacted to this, and built content around this moving forwards.

If their intent is eradication, then it will become far more apparent over time, but the Guardian lore identifies they are not insane, and when faced with a force greater than themselves, they will choose retreat and survival than self-annihilation.

Right now it feels our hands are being forced, but this is probably because FD are now invested because players are engaged. So I can only hypothesis that more ‘war’ content is coming.

Remember we still have not seen Thargoids on legs, which is evident in various leaks. This logically would herald a new phase of the war, and logically the best outcome for FD, given there are other games out there providing such ‘Starship Troopers’ content, but equally FD could still drop that content (they have done this before).

But also remember as Breben once said - Galnet does not always tell the truth. If you’re interested in peace, then simply don’t react to the story presented to you because it’s most likely propaganda.

 

[Shurimal]

A. Assumes they are not aware we’d be like fish out of water without reverse-engineered Guardian tech. (And/or they don’t figure out a way to neutralize it completely)

I think they're very aware of our tinkering with Guardian stuffz and how it enhances our combat performance. Glaive didn't pop out in a vaccuum; it's a specific response to Guardian tech (probably based on an old warship design from the Guardian-Thargoid war). But we also have developed a counter to the anti-guardian field—the nanite torpedoes are shielded against it—and Aegis enhanced AX weapons are effective against the bulk of their forces which consists of Scouts, Scythes, Glaives, Cyclops and Basilisks.

B. The mycoid didn’t convince them to not start another war. How would we know this weapon will, instead of making them even more annoyed (while we are blasting their hive ships which only really have sufficiently powerful defense turrets to ward off unwary or careless explorers in a lightly armored ship)? Not to mention the presence of Guardian technology still tends to upset them quite a lot.

I think the mycoid did convince them to withdraw and leave us alone. We didn't see a single thargoid ship for centuries, and when they finally did start to appear again, were mostly non-aggressive, unless provoked. Of course, we simply had to provoke them and escalate things to such a high level they sent their Titans to us. Now that Rubicon is crossed, we can't just stop fighting anymore, and we have nowhere to withdraw. Pushing the thargoids back is the only course we have left (thanks, Damnation! What a "saviour" you were!), and I hope that action against Titans is enough and we don't have to invade their homeworlds—this war has become tiresome. Though Hudson, Azimuth, Sirius and other powers-that-be would gleefully do it anyway.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

at some historical nexus, we the community collectively decided to go towards this direction of aggression ourselves

I don't know if we ever had a real choice (because that's an illusion), but there was this point where the community decided to support the obvious moustache-twirling villain because he had the better shiny toys....

 

[CMDR ROGER]

We didn't see a single thargoid ship for centuries, and when they finally did start to appear again, were mostly non-aggressive, unless provoked

Except for all the hyperdictions and shipwrecks.

 

[Schmack]

The purpose of this war is to crush our enemy, see them driven before us, hear the lamentations of their women.

 

[Shurimal]

Except for all the hyperdictions and shipwrecks.

Weren't a thing between 28-something and 3301, IIRC.

hear the lamentations of their women.

Does that sound like crickets in this case?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

But again assessing their behaviour they do not look to be actively eradicating humanity, which they evidently could do, if they wished, but rather they seem to have been focusing their efforts towards looking for something

Their expansion pattern is not particularly obviously search-focused - in terms of trying to find something with a specific location it's actively inefficient.

Frontier's hints via Seo Jin-Ae in Galnet were a lot vaguer than "looking for something" - that's how players seem to have interpreted/remembered it, but the original source supports a much wider variety of objectives.

Seo Jin-ae, who possesses a base comprehension of Thargoid intent via her neural implants, believes these are focused, systematic strikes rather than a frenzied assault. She feels that the Thargoids are working toward a specific goal, but cannot yet identify its nature.

"Focused" and "Systematic" is a good description of how the Thargoid's attempts to secure territory have operated, yes. But there's nothing in there to say that their specific goal is a search, and I can't find any other comments suggesting a Thargoid motivation from anyone who might be expected to know. (There's been a noticeable lack of progress towards figuring it out, either; the establishment of the spires might indicate settling in for a longer war; the capture of human prisoners remains a total mystery as to why; not much has really been hinted at)


As to whether the Thargoids could eradicate humanity easily if they wanted to ... insufficient data. The Titans, even without being able to actually destroy them, don't appear to have the strength to do so - certainly not on a short timescale, but probably they'd struggle to hold much more than a 50-LY radius sphere long term, and even eight of those wouldn't unduly concern the bubble as a whole. Previous Thargoid attacks have been dangerous to individual systems but on a scale of human-human aggression barely noticeable. Sure, they might be holding back and could actually send a hundred Titans if they really wanted us dead ... but that's just speculation. They might, equally speculatively, just not be that dangerous beyond a few fancy (and mostly countered) tricks, and only have an industrial base for ship production and crewing which roughly matches the bubble.

I don't know if we ever had a real choice (because that's an illusion), but there was this point where the community decided to support the obvious moustache-twirling villain because he had the better shiny toys....

Even in the absence of shiny toys, Hudson was able to win a near-unprecedented CG victory (he was the immediate aggressor, he was a Federal power fighting an independent non-Anarchy faction in independent space, there were no quantitative advantages to either side - all of which were previously indicators of a substantial defeat) against the essentially-harmless Far God Cult on the basis of "Thargoids bad". And it wasn't particularly close.

Certainly there should be no expectation that given any sort of A-or-B choice the majority would pick one which doesn't involve shooting Thargoids.

 

[R4dioS1lence]

On non-AX Xeno-related activities, we indeed crossed the "let's get friendly" border two wars ago. Because a "virus that corrodes and destroys you so hard that even the person who shot you with it regrets it" is kinda hard to get over it. Plus, an ancient race that can literally just go away and await the eventual death of a species caused by the species itself probably doesn't see value in making friends.

Frontier painting Thargoids as the common enemy is okay, and it's not like this doesn't create interesting stories. The Starship Troopers references are great, what better way of talking about facism organically with that tangent? Chef's kiss.

Also, even for those who don't want to do AX but still want Xeno-related, there are still Reactivation missions (killing Thargoids there isn't required) and mining rescuing humans from Titans (which now is easier since Hunters don't interdict in Malestroms anymore), among others like supplying resources and transporting people away from the frontlines. These can still be roleplayed from the point of view of "having to clean up after warmongers" without attacking Thargoids, only helping humans who have no blame but are still victims in the war.

Heck, non-AX has more options than AX if you look at it. AX can shoot Thargoids in space, can shoot Thargoids in conflict zones, can shoot Thargoids on the Titan or shoot the Titan itself, and can shoot Thargoids who don't shoot back at the spire sites for cash. Non-AX can ferry humans away from the frontlines evading Hunters, can rescue humans from Titans, can reactivate settlements right under the nose of Thargoids (or recover important data from said settlements), can trade supplies to help those in need... Non-AX has more variety in activities than AX does.

 

[CMDR ROGER]

Weren't a thing between 28-something and 3301, IIRC.

Except the part where they were (I heard Jameson himself was victim to them sometimes).

 

[metatheurgist]

Where is Relspi? I'm sure they have ideas.

 

[Rainbro]

I know I'm going to get a stern look from the RP crowd, but this point in the story (yes, this is a story we are being told by the game master Frontier) the "maybe we can have peace with them" approach has gone out the window. There have been many whacky theories about "making peace", communicating with them or that hidden long-term Thargoid reputation balance, but after two attempted genocides by humanity and a clear hostile invasion of the Thargoids we're in the "it's them or us" phase. If you think at this point something else is possible, you might be the people having the rooftop party in Independence Day.

Nobody knows how this story arc will actually end, there's still a few loose ends like Seo whatsherface and Mr. upload-my-mind-to-the-MCP, and it's going to be a few weeks or months until the conclusion, but long term the story is set in its ways isn't suddenly going to do a 180. This may be a bummer for the pro-goid-roleplayers, But everytime a game chooses a story path there are bound to be people dissatisfied with it. Such is the lot in life. Unlimited freedom and free choices are an illusion in games. We have limited influence, but in the end the game master is telling their story.

But hey, maybe Seo whatever her name is will get her Deus Ex Machina moment.

Oh yeah, I totally agree we're not going to see peace. The quote from Braben about how peace with the Thargoids would have always been a temporary measure comes to mind - of course, he didn't specify who would be at fault for that Unless Powerplay 2.0 causes the sudden death of basically every authority figure, we aren't getting peace.

But still, it's fun to discuss it. I hope it helps show interest to Frontier for future narrative choices on this, even if they're not a 180. I wonder how things might have been difference if Kaine had done better in her CGs for example: Mahon would still be President, the Titans would still be here, but maybe Sirius wouldn't be looting the Alliance and we'd have seen a different approach in the Coalsack. And hey, how about that second Guardian battleground with the passive Thargoids that was supposed to be a big deal? Can we at least know what happened in Witch Head with that last attack it's been AGES-