PVP ACTIVITIES
- Thread starter XComanceX
- Start date
I think the main thing about pvp is emotion. I'm going to make a suggestion that the higher the fame the more money you can lose, exponentially (up to 1million, if there is no money they take away the entire fleet with all the equipment)
This would make players with bad fame feel more risky and give them more thrill in the game.
A million? You're having a laugh. With many CMDRs having billions, small monetary penalties are worthless.
Steve
Of course it's a billion, I must have gotten it wrong.
That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I respect that. However I do not believe this is absolutely correct, because the history of gaming disagrees. If I were to list every PvE game that featured PvP as end-game content it would be longer than my previous post. Computer video games literally started as PvP games. Spacewar and Pong are PvP games. Even their predecessors made in the 50's, OXO and Tennis For Two, while not technically defined as video games were PvP. Every single game ever made that features a story mode/campaign and some form of a competitive vs mode with two or more players has PvP as "end-game content". It might not be your preferred end game content, but it is there to enjoy for those that want it. First/third person shooters, fighting games, and real-time strategy games are the easiest examples to point out. Yet many people play these games purely for the single player PvE experience. That's not even going into the slew of mmo's since Meridian 59 and Ultima Online that feature and support both PvE and PvP content. For sure plenty of wildly successful single player/co-op games without any PvP have been made. To that I'd say PvE itself can often be competitive, with one of the earliest cases being arcade high scores and leaderboard rankings. More modern examples would include speedrunning and achievement trophies.
I also don't get the sheer animosity that some here have towards PvP. I do understand why the community may hold a bit of a grudge because it simply hasn't been handled well in this game. I can also relate to having a sense of envy and frustration over the prospect of Frontier possibly doing something for the game that wouldn't affect their experience, when so much of the game arguably needs work. But is that any reason to deny a portion of the playerbase a voice? No matter how small it may be?
As mentioned, the intent of the honest PvP crowd is not to lure unwilling victims into open to prey on. I'd rather my opponents be try-hard sweat lords that test my knowledge, coordination and teamwork over defenseless baby seals unable to pose a threat. I would be completely satisfied and happy as a clam if the average bgs faction war CZ or some powerplay related CZ reliably had two or more opposing wings of players going at it that I could join at any given time. That would be absolutely wonderful and fantastic! Inhibiting factors here are obviously the way instancing works, the milky way is ultra bigly humongous large, there's no server-wide chat, and despite the bubble the small percentage of active players interested in that direct competitive gameplay just seem to be spread few and far between. This is why, both you and myself, have asked to point out where the organized groups of players actively engaging in this gameplay are located. I would like to play with them and they're lost in space. A great and simple solution would be, now hear me out here, to focus them tighter together through in-game mechanisms. I know, how lazy right?
Off topic but speaking of laziness I think a server-wide chat feature would do wonders to the game for everyone involved. I understand some arguments against it, but I've long thought it'd be both practical and immersive to access some sort of "long distance communications panel", either in ship or at a station/settlement, that provides a game wide chat tab that is only seen when you're connected.
Just in case PvP is Player vs Player !
There is no PvE activity in it as there are no NPC opponents.
Given how often we see demands to exclude PG and Solo from BGS and PP this statement rings a little hollow.
PvP exploration; We've already seen this though the method seems to be Carrier surfing.
PvP trading; That was exactly what the 3rd party market data sites did.
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Personally, the main thing about PvP in this game, and similar* games in the past, is three factors:
- The Risk/Reward Imbalance. Outside of formal tournaments, this imbalance is usually huge: one party assumes all the risk, the other party gains all the "rewards." There is little incentive to me to initiate PvP, and the only reason I fly in Open is for the thrill of the possibility of blockade running, personal skill weighs heavily in avoiding interdiction, and the amount of ganking is well below my frustration cutoff level.
- The Time/Reward Imbalance. PvP, in this game especially, usually takes a long time, and does not get me closer to my in-game goals. Nor do I consider consider such an activity to be particularly fun. Finally, the few times I've gone "marauding" experimentially, my concern about potentially ruining someone else's game session overrode any "thrill of the hunt" I had.
- Time Investment/Fun Imbalance. I play games to have fun, but my free time at home is extremely limited. PvE is designed to be fair, so it’ll typically adjust itself to my ability to invest time into the game. PvP, OTOH, requires a huge investment into not only developing your character to maximum, but also reworking that character to reflect the current meta. And I don’t consider find any of the activities to get to that point to be fun. I’m a role player at heart, so the meta-gaming in particular I find to be grating, and I frequently make sub-optimal decisions purely due to "in character" reasons... even in pure PvP games. Which is probably why I rarely play pure PvP games.
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*A game that is primarily PvE, but has an open-PvP environment
Isn't that PwP?
I would describe that as meta-gaming myself. Using outside information to make in-game decisions. The actual rules in the game is that you don't get to have access to information from systems you haven't visited yet. It's why I don't use those sites to play the game. I will use them as a source of general information about systems I've visited (like the price of grain at Azaban City, to calculate the "value" of a credit), but not to make decisions while playing.
I have used those sites experimentally in the game, and I've found that my own decisions are as good, or better, than 3rd party sites 90% of the time, and the rest of the time the difference was too inconsequential to matter. But that wouldn't really matter either way. The emotional payoff of relying on my own skills, regardless of whether I succeed or fail, is much greater than being "guaranteed" success. Quite frankly, never failing is incredibly boring.
I'm right there with ya, and I agree with your bullet points. The grind to reach anything close to a competitive playing field is often ridiculous in these games. Your point on progression and PvP not bringing you closer to your in-game goals reminds me of the strictly PvP players early on in Guild Wars demanding they be able to unlock all skills by only playing PvP and not being forced to play the, relative to today's standards, easy PvE grind to acquire them. And I couldn't agree more about metas. Adhering to meta builds (all plasma FDL) can get boring pretty quick and is for the folks that always value winning over anything else, as should be the expected case in a tournament scenario for example. "Breaking" the meta with silly stuff for funsies, or using underpowered builds because I simply find them enjoyable, is more to my tune. Victory or defeat, if I'm having fun I'm winning the game. If not I'm losing.
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You find a nice little profitable run, it popped up on 3rd party site. Suddenly the Bubble and their dog turn up and demand tanks...
One of the problems with PVP in every single game that has it is that it only takes a few (possibly even just one) real jerk to ruin it for everybody. There used to be a youtube video from some semi famous youtube game player that described why he didn't do PVP and it was largely this reason.
Sugar coat it, put on blinders, pretend it doesn't happen, jump up and down denying it if you like. However, there is a reason for the proverb "one bad apples spoils the whole barrel".
Sugar coat it, put on blinders, pretend it doesn't happen, jump up and down denying it if you like. However, there is a reason for the proverb "one bad apples spoils the whole barrel".
Then there is the comparison to Eve. Elite isn't Eve.
The only PVP that occured when I tried it were huge events taking place at jump points taking advantage of internet lag where they killed hundreds of players who had no chance to do anything about it (spawn camping basically).
Other than that, it was a silent murder for no reason at all because the guy could.
I don't have much time to play so I don't need it wasted by being other people's content. The argument against that is "then just don't play". I don't. Haven't looked back at boring old eve in years.
The only PVP that occured when I tried it were huge events taking place at jump points taking advantage of internet lag where they killed hundreds of players who had no chance to do anything about it (spawn camping basically).
Other than that, it was a silent murder for no reason at all because the guy could.
I don't have much time to play so I don't need it wasted by being other people's content. The argument against that is "then just don't play". I don't. Haven't looked back at boring old eve in years.
I could also list some of the most popular as not the case, PvP is always an option, its separate, for example:
Everquest, arguably THE first true mmo, POP then Time were the end game back at its peak (no PvP)
ESO, PvP is separate and in no way seen as 'end game' (and yes i reached Emperor and Grand Overlord)
WOW - PVE instances are considered PVE end game, PvP is separate.
What i am trying to discourage is this notion that many hardcore PvPers (yes i was one) hold that somehow PvP is above everything else, its nonsense, raiding in many of these games was way more complicated and difficult than swinging a sword at someone else.
In Everquest i was part of Fantasy, one of the most successful guilds ever, beating Time was way harder than any PvP achievement ive ever earned, that was an End Game.
O7
I actually have a close-to-meta FDL (used to have normal 5A shield, not prismatic, back then) I built for the combat CG involving the Jupiter Division. It was quite fun to use in that context, but I haven't taken it out in ages because—frankly—I find FDL boring. Krait Phantom, Chieftain, Vulture are ships with actual strengths and weaknesses that you have to work with, FDL is just too good at its intended role to be interesting.
FDL-s only interesting aspect IMO is that its reputation means most other commanders will immediately flee from the CZ if you show up there in one
Except the loot. Feel free to search your old toon on zkill if you disagree even slightly and see what you dropped worth collecting. Even fittings can be collected and sold for profit.
That is a big difference between EVE and Elite in terms of PvP. No loot PvP vs full loot PvP. Elite has, unless the dying party has a bounty or is powerplay pledged, no real in game reason to attack another CMDR.
EVE however very much does have an in game reason to attack people, because any loot the other party has can potentially be picked up if the game lets you. Even modules and other things can be picked up sometimes.
"I also don't get the sheer animosity that some here have towards PvP. "
Some of us are paranoid. There are players out to get us, and to avoid them we play in solo, missing out on all those potentially fun co-operative activities we could have. Or even just saying hello and maybe making a friend or two. We often regard "sensible" suggestions about changing things as trojan horses. Whilst some may make such suggestions in good faith, others may see it as an opportunity to restrict others and/or provide them with more targets. Some of us want to have our kind of fun in the game, not just be fun for others.
So, I am not a fan of non consensual PvP in Elite.
However, outside of computer games, I do almost nothing else but PvP. I play games with miniatures (and sometimes board games) sat across a table from my opponent. That is PvP. Our aim is to have a good time not win at all costs by having a totally unbalanced game (encounter). If anyone is not fun to play with, we can always say no to the game.
Steve
Some of us are paranoid. There are players out to get us, and to avoid them we play in solo, missing out on all those potentially fun co-operative activities we could have. Or even just saying hello and maybe making a friend or two. We often regard "sensible" suggestions about changing things as trojan horses. Whilst some may make such suggestions in good faith, others may see it as an opportunity to restrict others and/or provide them with more targets. Some of us want to have our kind of fun in the game, not just be fun for others.
So, I am not a fan of non consensual PvP in Elite.
However, outside of computer games, I do almost nothing else but PvP. I play games with miniatures (and sometimes board games) sat across a table from my opponent. That is PvP. Our aim is to have a good time not win at all costs by having a totally unbalanced game (encounter). If anyone is not fun to play with, we can always say no to the game.
Steve
Once one masters build theory and situational awareness in Open, the gankers become your fun, because they are the only true test left. The NPCs aren't hard enough to be a test of builds or situational awareness. Waking from an FDL gank with ease in an Orca is a fun experience few people who play Elite get to have. Out foxing guys in supercruise as you leave an Engineer is something few people figure out how to pull off. Gankers can't N+1 kill us in Elite, and playing the trump card in those scenarios, is fun for some. Not everyone though, of course.
It's not for everyone, though, of course, which is why in Elite's current state, Solo/PG are basically necessary.
As a fellow table top gamer I'd generally echo this and it would be why I avoid tournaments.
There you get players out to win at any cost and the first casualty is fun. Every unit has a chapter of special rules and every that can be queried goes back and forth through the rulebook.