DLC18 discussion and predictions

[Hugo98]

Plus we have sea lions? Sea lions are forced to do shows/tricks 3 times a day all over the world.

That's definitely not true that they are forced. Can't speak about any part of the world but it's easy to train a sea lion just as you can do with your dog, just with treats and some patience.
I've seen quite a few sea lion (and also dolphin) trainings and also did an internship in a seal resue centre where they also have permanent residents which are trained just like sea lions in zoos, and they are free to join the training and don't get any disadvantage if they don't want to participate. They get their fish later if they don't want to participate. And this is the standard procedure in modern zoological institutions.
Keep in mind that seals and dolphins are very playful and curious animals also in the wild. There are several examples of dolphins and seals "surfing" on waves behind boats for example or doing jumps just for fun. You really don't have to force them to do such things, you just have to encourage them to do their natural behaviour and that's what zoos do.
Of course, there are some tricks that are not really natural and more like "circus", that's also something which I don't like to see but in most zoos I've been to the trainings and shows are really harmless. More like medical training and some jumps (which are not unnatural as stated above).

 

[Marvinb]

Yeah if they had given the NZ island map some buildable terrain in the sea these possibilities would be so much more realisable. I really wish they'd done that, mainly so I can have a ship entrance but it would also open the door to a marine DLC. What about a map that is mainly sea and some dotted little islands that was provided alongside a marine DLC? What if there was a requirement that habitats for cetaceans must not be fully enclosed? Idk there are definitely work arounds to stop people putting them in glass tanks but I don't see any of it actually happening

That would be a cool way to implement them. But i dont see locking such prominent animals to a ver few select maps landing well with the PZ community, especially those who really wanted them.
Its kinda like if they made the sloth in the tropical pack so that you can only have it if your building in the tropical biome in south america, so you cant have in in any existing project (Unless youre already building there ofc) and have to essential start a new zoo

 

[Optimus23]

That's definitely not true that they are forced. Can't speak about any part of the world but it's easy to train a sea lion just as you can do with your dog, just with treats and some patience.
I've seen quite a few sea lion (and also dolphin) trainings and also did an internship in a seal resue centre where they also have permanent residents which are trained just like sea lions in zoos, and they are free to join the training and don't get any disadvantage if they don't want to participate. They get their fish later if they don't want to participate. And this is the standard procedure in modern zoological institutions.
Keep in mind that seals and dolphins are very playful and curious animals also in the wild. There are several examples of dolphins and seals "surfing" on waves behind boats for example or doing jumps just for fun. You really don't have to force them to do such things, you just have to encourage them to do their natural behaviour and that's what zoos do.
Of course, there are some tricks that are not really natural and more like "circus", that's also something which I don't like to see but in most zoos I've been to the trainings and shows are really harmless. More like medical training and some jumps (which are not unnatural as stated above).

Forced might not be the correct term, but they still do tricks like circus animals. Theirs a zoo 20 minutes up the road from me that houses 3 sea lions. They live in a crappy tank and perform 7 days a week. I just don’t see why Sea lions are allowed in the game, but
Not dolphins.

 

[DarthQuell]

Forced might not be the correct term, but they still do tricks like circus animals. Theirs a zoo 20 minutes up the road from me that houses 3 sea lions. They live in a crappy tank and perform 7 days a week. I just don’t see why Sea lions are allowed in the game, but
Not dolphins.

We have sea lions at our zoo and I have yet to see them perform any kind of tricks. Plus, their enclosure is huge...
It sounds like that zoo isn't really practicing good animal husbandry

 

[Villanelle]

That would be a cool way to implement them. But i dont see locking such prominent animals to a ver few select maps landing well with the PZ community, especially those who really wanted them.
Its kinda like if they made the sloth in the tropical pack so that you can only have it if your building in the tropical biome in south america, so you cant have in in any existing project (Unless youre already building there ofc) and have to essential start a new zoo

Yeah they aren't really realistic solutions, was just brainstorming. I don't think they fit the game in any way really.

 

[Captain Callum]

Forced might not be the correct term, but they still do tricks like circus animals. Theirs a zoo 20 minutes up the road from me that houses 3 sea lions. They live in a crappy tank and perform 7 days a week. I just don’t see why Sea lions are allowed in the game, but
Not dolphins.

There are plenty of "normal" habitats for sea lions across the world though, having a local awful tank for sea lions doesn't mean they all live like that. I guess the same goes for dolphins but general public view of dolphins in captivity will remain generally negative.

 

[DarthQuell]

There are plenty of "normal" habitats for sea lions across the world though, having a local awful tank for sea lions doesn't mean they all live like that. I guess the same goes for dolphins but general public view of dolphins in captivity will remain generally negative.

Another factor to consider is that dolphins are oceanic animals, so they are found in huge, huge open areas and need to constantly be moving from place to place for food.
Sea lions tend to stay near land anyways, so it's easier to recreate that on a zoo

 

[Optimus23]

We have sea lions at our zoo and I have yet to see them perform any kind of tricks. Plus, their enclosure is huge...
It sounds like that zoo isn't really practicing good animal husbandry

Maybe. This is the place I’m talking about.

 

[Villanelle]

Maybe. This is the place I’m talking about.

View attachment 392198

Yuck, sounds like a terrible place. Unfortunately laws are too relaxed about zoo licences in the UK. Have you reported them?

The difference between dolphins/orcas and other species is that there are ethical ways to keep most species* in captivity, but there is basically no ethical way to keep cetaceans in captivity.

*big caveats around elephants and great apes. There are ways but most real life places don't have the funds/space to do it properly. I hate seeing these animals in zoos but I've been to sanctuaries that do it really well. I tend not to build for these animals in the game.

 

[NachoB]

Maybe. This is the place I’m talking about.

View attachment 392198

That looks terrible. Is not even outdoors.

But i've seen amazing sea lion exhibits online like Omaha and Houston zoos.

 

[NachoB]

Yuck, sounds like a terrible place. Unfortunately laws are too relaxed about zoo licences in the UK. Have you reported them?

The difference between dolphins/orcas and other species is that there are ethical ways to keep most species* in captivity, but there is basically no ethical way to keep cetaceans in captivity.

*big caveats around elephants and great apes. There are ways but most real life places don't have the funds/space to do it properly. I hate seeing these animals in zoos but I've been to sanctuaries that do it really well. I tend not to build for these animals in the game.

I like building for elephanta and apes a lot but i always tend to do huge enclosures, specially for elephants and as natural looking as possible. I look online for references and some zoos do have amazing exhibits specially for gorillas, and some really good ones for elephants but i agree that most of them do seem very small or un natural for my liking.

 

[Markiz]

Another factor to consider is that dolphins are oceanic animals, so they are found in huge, huge open areas and need to constantly be moving from place to place for food.

I know next to nothing about sea mammals in captivity, so maybe a silly question: Do mammals that live closer to coast fare better in captivity? Idk, something like Harbour Porpoise?

 

[Marvinb]

I know next to nothing about sea mammals in captivity, so maybe a silly question: Do mammals that live closer to coast fare better in captivity? Idk, something like Harbour Porpoise?

No expert but i think yes. For habor porpoise it probably also helps a ton that they are like a 1/4 the size of a bottlenose, so its way more feasible to build an adequat habitat for them

 

[AndyZoos]

We have sea lions at our zoo and I have yet to see them perform any kind of tricks. Plus, their enclosure is huge...
It sounds like that zoo isn't really practicing good animal husbandry

I think it depends on how you're defining "tricks." A lot of zoos I've been to will have the keepers work with the sea lions at feeding time to perform "behaviors" (e.g., waving, rolling over or whatever) but it's never forced and generally at the animal's discretion (meaning if they aren't into it at that moment they don't force it). It's not much different than the backstage work they do with other animals.

But that's more of a cute, fun little thing to show case for visitors (and added enrichment for the animals) rather than a show-show which is what I think people are talking about.

 

[Villanelle]

I like building for elephanta and apes a lot but i always tend to do huge enclosures, specially for elephants and as natural looking as possible. I look online for references and some zoos do have amazing exhibits specially for gorillas, and some really good ones for elephants but i agree that most of them do seem very small or un natural for my liking.

Same, I basically break my game every time I build for elephants and let them take up half the map
I've worked with elephants in Sri Lanka and visited sanctuaries in Laos, India, Thailand and South Africa so it's very close to my heart <3 the most magnificent animals. They need room to roam and masses of enrichment. This place in Laos was the best:

Home - Elephant Conservation Center

www.elephantconservationcenter.com

 

[Optimus23]

Yuck, sounds like a terrible place. Unfortunately laws are too relaxed about zoo licences in the UK. Have you reported them?

The difference between dolphins/orcas and other species is that there are ethical ways to keep most species* in captivity, but there is basically no ethical way to keep cetaceans in captivity.

*big caveats around elephants and great apes. There are ways but most real life places don't have the funds/space to do it properly. I hate seeing these animals in zoos but I've been to sanctuaries that do it really well. I tend not to build for these animals in the game.

That place is Knowsley safari park. It’s a huge popular place in the uk. They do have a very small outdoor area, but even that isn’t much better.

 

[Markiz]

Hypothetically, would you guys be cool with inclusion of fully marine pack with no mammals or do you think they're essential for that theme?

 

[Captain Callum]

Hypothetically, would you guys be cool with inclusion of fully marine pack with no mammals or do you think they're essential for that theme?

sharks, stingrays, sea turtles, freshwater and saltwater fish? Sign me up

 

[Marvinb]

Hypothetically, would you guys be cool with inclusion of fully marine pack with no mammals or do you think they're essential for that theme?

Id actually prefer an aquarium pack without mammals (okay manatee can stay).
Cetaceans just have such limited use cases for me personally whereas stuff like sea turtles and sharks, while still a little limited, are alot more generally usefull in my eyes.
The most usefull would be large freshwater fish like arapaimas and red tailed catfish, which you can pretty much throw in every zoo regardless of location and budget aslong as its has a tropical house with space for a large aquarium.

Overall im not sure if i would call cetaceans essential to an aquarium theme, but you will have a LOT of people wondering why they arent there

 

[RightWhale]

Hypothetically, would you guys be cool with inclusion of fully marine pack with no mammals or do you think they're essential for that theme?

1-2 mammals, another pinniped and then maybe the sea otter. I would love to have it be made of reptiles, birds, and fish mostly.