End the geno/xenocidal assault on a sentient species

[Rainbro]

Excuse me, are you sure you've played this game ?
When I was carrying guardian artifacts, the Thargoids immediately aggroed me. Is that their thing?

I don't remember the lore very well, but I think thousands of "followers of a distant god" boarded some barge and their Thargoids of that ...
Were they the first to fire on them, too?

You are correct in that they have an automatically hostile reaction to Guardian tech, but I think you're missing the overall point.

Yes, they will shoot on sight if you're carrying Guardian tech. They started doing this after humanity declared war and had been occupying and exploiting Thargoid territory for several months. Look at it the other way around: if you found a Thargoid hauling a trailer of Antihumanium, after the Thargoids had declared war on humanity and started shooting every human in sight...what would your reaction be? To give them the benefit of the doubt?

Regardless, they still continued with their other behaviours that enabled them to spare uninvolved human ships whenever possible. That unconditional hostility was used, but only for Guardian tech, is if anything good evidence that they didn't hate humanity or want them exterminated etc etc. It's also significantly more targeted than the response of the human authorities, which was, you know, "kill everything in sight".

Of course, they became more universally hostile after humanity gathered a ton of Guardian artefacts and used them to try and nuke the Thargoids...which, in hindsight, might have justified why the Thargoids didn't quite trust us with Guardian tech?

The Dedicant came after the Proteus Wave as well, years into the war. So no, they didn't fire first, but I'd struggle to think of a convincing argument why the Thargoids should trust human vessels near them after genocide attempt number whatever. It's five years into the war with multiple escalations on both sides, "who shot first" in any individual encounter is not as relevant as it once was. Or do you fault humans for firing on Orthruses, or any encounter in the nebulae where humans went out of their way to hunt Thargoids that otherwise wouldn't have attacked them?

I think it's an understandable reaction to view the Thargoids as the aggressors, since any individual player is probably more likely to have that as their first experience than to have been around during the Pleiades arc and have recognised that events on GalNet can be as much a hostile act as events done to your own personal ship. Even if they were, ingame propaganda at the time and the years of articles since, burying the original events, make it harder to draw the connection between Thargoid responses and the human actions that preceded them. But having spent several years arguing about this now, I'm pretty convinced that every Thargoid attack had some level of provocation behind it. They're aliens, we might not completely agree on every aspect of what action deserves what retribution. But in general, they'd been a lot more restrained than humanity. Elite's story isn't about good humans and bad aliens, it's about the military industrial complex.

 

[Hanerib]

 

[Rainbro]

If my lore-based arguments don't do it for anyone reading, consider this additional argument: their ships are cool and I would like some. If that means being labelled a traitor to my species by rich people, so be it. (I am not considering Azimuth here because they couldn't even get Scouts working).

 

[SergMx]

You are correct in that they have an automatically hostile reaction to Guardian tech, but I think you're missing the overall point.

Yes, they will shoot on sight if you're carrying Guardian tech. They started doing this after humanity declared war and had been occupying and exploiting Thargoid territory for several months. Look at it the other way around: if you found a Thargoid hauling a trailer of Antihumanium, after the Thargoids had declared war on humanity and started shooting every human in sight...what would your reaction be? To give them the benefit of the doubt?

Regardless, they still continued with their other behaviours that enabled them to spare uninvolved human ships whenever possible. That unconditional hostility was used, but only for Guardian tech, is if anything good evidence that they didn't hate humanity or want them exterminated etc etc. It's also significantly more targeted than the response of the human authorities, which was, you know, "kill everything in sight".

Of course, they became more universally hostile after humanity gathered a ton of Guardian artefacts and used them to try and nuke the Thargoids...which, in hindsight, might have justified why the Thargoids didn't quite trust us with Guardian tech?

The Dedicant came after the Proteus Wave as well, years into the war. So no, they didn't fire first, but I'd struggle to think of a convincing argument why the Thargoids should trust human vessels near them after genocide attempt number whatever. It's five years into the war with multiple escalations on both sides, "who shot first" in any individual encounter is not as relevant as it once was. Or do you fault humans for firing on Orthruses, or any encounter in the nebulae where humans went out of their way to hunt Thargoids that otherwise wouldn't have attacked them?

I think it's an understandable reaction to view the Thargoids as the aggressors, since any individual player is probably more likely to have that as their first experience than to have been around during the Pleiades arc and have recognised that events on GalNet can be as much a hostile act as events done to your own personal ship. Even if they were, ingame propaganda at the time and the years of articles since, burying the original events, make it harder to draw the connection between Thargoid responses and the human actions that preceded them. But having spent several years arguing about this now, I'm pretty convinced that every Thargoid attack had some level of provocation behind it. They're aliens, we might not completely agree on every aspect of what action deserves what retribution. But in general, they'd been a lot more restrained than humanity. Elite's story isn't about good humans and bad aliens, it's about the military industrial complex.

I don't know about the original, but in my translation the NPCs in the conflict zones call them bugs.
And I remember well in Men in Black 1 when Kane explained what a bug was on a galactic scale.

Or do you want YOU to be invaded and have your brains drunk like Star Troopers ?

(children away from the screen)

Spoiler

 

[Alaska Sædelære]

It is a game. It is fiction. No sentient creature gets hurt in its making or playing (maybe debatable in the case of ganking but that's a different discussion.)

 

[Rainbro]

I don't know about the original, but in my translation the NPCs in the conflict zones call them bugs.
And I remember well in Men in Black 1 when Kane explained what a bug was on a galactic scale.

Or do you want YOU to be invaded and have your brains drunk like Star Troopers ?

(children away from the screen)

That isn't an argument about who is justified. Certainly there is no evidence of brain drinking, they seem to treat their captives better than we do.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

I'm remaining cautious about either direction, but if I had a clue what Frontier still wants out of the Titan story arc, well, I'd have to be someone else. They hint at a "Thargoid retaliation", but then nothing happens for another two, three months, Thor does a funny thing with its spires and it does absolutely nothing but yet again serve as a tool for players to uproot it (faster), nevermind the whole thing of how they've been doing nothing that actually had any meaningful impact on the destruction of a Titan (or avoidance thereof), and "It was all just a test of humans to see how they would respond to a large-scale invasion" would feel more like a cheap copout for a good while.


Spoken just like the propaganda wants you to believe. What makes you think anybody knows the true numbers of the Thargoids well enough to disprove that, if they actually wished, they could have steamrolled over the entire Bubble already? Instead they kept themselves confined to the edges of it while it is completely impossible to intercept a moving Titan, or prevent the Thargoids from just appearing right in the middle of it.

Lives have been lost, yes, but over-exaggerating the facts does nobody any good. Not one of the attacked stations was damaged so badly to be completely irretrievable after recovery of a system, either. And how many Thargoids have we killed before any reason to do so in the defense of human territory (not colony outposts planted right in the territory of a highly territorial species to plunder their resources, thus putting the civilians placed there in danger when an inevitable response occurred) came up?

And you can't tell me the Federation is not responsible with the warmongering Hudson behind it. Perhaps his feelings wouldn't have gotten hurt if he didn't order the Navy to steal from the Thargoids and then acted surprised when they destroyed the convoy with that technology.


So, yes, humans do have a right to defend their space, and I do not, nor can I, deny that. But the problem I have with it is that there was never any attempt to actually reason with the Thargoids*, let alone understand them... because, as history also knows, the original Aegis was meant to be an organization with a research focus first, but the superpowers slapped it every time and insisted for it to be an arms manufacturer to fuel a blind war fought in pure xenophobia. With predictable results, on both ends. And then they had the audacity to gut it in favor of Azimuth's weapons of mass destruction. Now look where that led us.

And it feels much like the new Aegis is just set to repeat those mistakes, even if some of them have been avoided. Yet most of its research ended up being dedicated to... destruction of Thargoid ships, or disabling their structures. Spire contaminants, the anti-Titan torpedoes... the latter especially with how as soon as the option was presented, Aegis immediately jumped the gun on it while forsaking every other research project, nevermind how suddenly the threat of the Titans isolated to the remote regions of the Bubble even for the furthest-spread Thargoid sphere, was at extreme risk of wiping everything in the Bubble out. With zero credible evidence. Or just none at all, considering how it's been nearly six months since the first destroyed Titan and their behavior has barely changed.

All research purely dedicated to war and how to end it most quickly through violence, when violence was what led us here in the first place. Blind, completely clueless violence. And still nobody is looking at any solutions on how to prevent further conflict in the long term. What destroying the Titans will do is simply cause the Thargoids to send more, as much as certain figures like to claim the only way to "discourage" them is a show of force. How often have we tried that for them to just come back worse? And what stopped research into the Thargoid species, aside from ways how to kill them better, from being performed alongside the defensive effort of human space?

Somehow, I suspect that their behavior won't remain so "docile" now that there is only two Titans left in this assault force and six of them have been cooked to death, which is not a death any living creature should suffer through (and yes, the Titans are alive as much as any other Thargoid ship). But humans insisted violence was the best and only solution, so they can reap what they get of it. As the saying goes... "You reap what you sow"

*I have not forgotten the Kingfisher, and it was mentioned above anyway. But it was far too late for one, and some idiot thought sending it on a mission of certain doom was not enough on its own, packing it full of Thargoid sensors and probes, ensuring a hostile response, instead of making it almost completely certain.

Whatever the point of writing all of that up is anyway. Those who listen to it will already be aware and convinced, and the other side is hardly going to care, so it'll be like preaching to the choir.

Out of character, well, I'm not exactly too pleased with Frontier's recent writing direction (recent as in since February) for the Titan arc, but that would be a whole separate wall of text worthy of several posts, so I think I'll just... not. For now.

Given the length of time that Thor's fate was blindingly obvious I'd have to conclude the titans utterly lack the ability to move. As it's impossible to leave the Thargoids holding territory in the Bubble with the current behaviour of the Thargoids in the control systems the net result must be the titans destruction or a shift in Invasion Thargoid behaviour to that of the Nebulae Thargoids before considering survival of the remaining titans.
I don't see that occurring in the likely time left.

 

[Kira Goto]

Given the length of time that Thor's fate was blindingly obvious I'd have to conclude the titans utterly lack the ability to move.

Have you forgotten how they got here in the first place? Achilles even had us recover pieces of the drive built into Taranis (and, probably, the other Titans) to make their SCO prototype drive.

… not that I could claim to understand that, if it was not just a one-time use piece, why the Thargoids insist on staying in the Bubble to keep following through with an invasion plan that’s now a lot less likely to complete. Then again, maybe it was just to establish some kind of foothold for… something, but I could probably have imagined less expensive ways to do it than throw eight gigantic ships into a meatgrinder.

 

[IstvaanDCIV]

While humans have certainly been the instigators of this wholly unnecessary conflict, asking/demanding that the assaults against the Titans in the bubble cease is a total non-starter.

Leaving aside the question of convincing all human parties to the conflict to cease operation which would make herding cats look trivial, I believe that there is a firm moral case for resisting the Thargoid invasion of the bubble. The millions of people killed, injured and displaced by the alien ships pouring forth from the Titans are not the ones responsible for starting this conflict. Abandoning those people to their fate would be an abdication of moral responsibility on par with starting the war in the first place.

The Thargoid forces in the bubble are not showing any behaviour which indicates a desire for a peaceful resolution. The only conscionable response is to fight them off. When the last of the Thargoid Titans and their ships are cleared out from the bubble, then I think we can have a reckoning with the corporate and government interests whose greed and malice lead to an interspecies conflict and so many human casualties.

At the very least, re-establishing the status quo ante bellum would put the possibility of a more peace coexistence back on the table.

 

[Mako The Grey]

That isn't an argument about who is justified. Certainly there is no evidence of brain drinking, they seem to treat their captives better than we do.

That doesn't seem to be the case. I set up my clipper to help recover life pods from Titan Thor before the melt down. I was able to get to Thor with only minor caustic damage. For the most part, the Thargoids still there allowed me to progress. I was able to recover 34 pods. Just a small number but best I could do. First time trying to help. Me and the crew were able to get them back to the Rescue Ship Seacole. We didn't examine any of the pods until the off load to Seacole. What we saw has changed my mind about our interaction with the Thargoids going forward.

4 of the pods held humans that seemed unharmed in any way. The rest were a different story. All 30 contained humans that could be revived...but we didn't. All had been "examined" in some way or altered. Most had large areas of muscle that was no longer there. A few were missing portions of central nerves tissue. Spinal cord tissue for the most part, but brain matter in a few were missing also. Most had all or a few limbs removed. It was obvious that this hadn't been done to "help" the occupants. They had not been "helped" like one would expect in a hospital setting.

I'm not sure the purpose of what was done to those 30 people, but I'm sure it needs to end. I have 6 hours left to try and recover more pods from Thor before the melt down. I have to try and save what few can be. After that, my crew and I plan to do everything in our power to stop what the Thargoids are doing. I don't see a way for it to be a "friendly" response on our part. I don't wish glory for mankind but do wish a strong defense from that which will harm, even if unintentional. Sometimes violent actions really is the best/optimal course one has.

 

[Rainbro]

That doesn't seem to be the case. I set up my clipper to help recover life pods from Titan Thor before the melt down. I was able to get to Thor with only minor caustic damage. For the most part, the Thargoids still there allowed me to progress. I was able to recover 34 pods. Just a small number but best I could do. First time trying to help. Me and the crew were able to get them back to the Rescue Ship Seacole. We didn't examine any of the pods until the off load to Seacole. What we saw has changed my mind about our interaction with the Thargoids going forward.

4 of the pods held humans that seemed unharmed in any way. The rest were a different story. All 30 contained humans that could be revived...but we didn't. All had been "examined" in some way or altered. Most had large areas of muscle that was no longer there. A few were missing portions of central nerves tissue. Spinal cord tissue for the most part, but brain matter in a few were missing also. Most had all or a few limbs removed. It was obvious that this hadn't been done to "help" the occupants. They had not been "helped" like one would expect in a hospital setting.

I'm not sure the purpose of what was done to those 30 people, but I'm sure it needs to end. I have 6 hours left to try and recover more pods from Thor before the melt down. I have to try and save what few can be. After that, my crew and I plan to do everything in our power to stop what the Thargoids are doing. I don't see a way for it to be a "friendly" response on our part. I don't wish glory for mankind but do wish a strong defense from that which will harm, even if unintentional. Sometimes violent actions really is the best/optimal course one has.

I suggest you forward evidence of your findings to the relevant authorities, since so far they've found zero evidence of significant interference. With the Empire and Federation continuing to keep prisoners in isolation, they'd probably be quite keen for something to back up their decision.

 

[Kira Goto]

4 of the pods held humans that seemed unharmed in any way. The rest were a different story. All 30 contained humans that could be revived...but we didn't. All had been "examined" in some way or altered. Most had large areas of muscle that was no longer there. A few were missing portions of central nerves tissue. Spinal cord tissue for the most part, but brain matter in a few were missing also. Most had all or a few limbs removed. It was obvious that this hadn't been done to "help" the occupants. They had not been "helped" like one would expect in a hospital setting.

You are literally making stuff up. The canon lore (GalNet or in-game beacons) has not provided anything even remotely close to harmful interference in the organism by the Thargoids, or nothing that can conclusively be identified as such.

 

[Yure]

As of posting this, Titan Thor has gone into meltdown a few minutes ago.

This now marks number 6 of the 8 Titans that have been ruthlessly destroyed by humanity for daring to try and defend themselves and their species from genocidal maniacs determined to rip the Thargoids apart and steal their technology and resources.

And before the usual tired arguments of "They attacked first!", "They never tried peace!", "They invaded our systems" etc. come rolling in, I would just gently remind people that Humans have always shot first in any historical interaction with the Thargoids.

1. The First Thargoid War was started when a human frontier colony expanded to a new planet and found Thargoid tech/development there, then attacked a ship that happened to come to the site. This eventually led to the development of the infamous Mycoid disease, a genocidal viral bioweapon designed to break down Thargoids and their technology at a cellular level. This weapon was developed by capturing Thargoids or pieces of their technology from crash sites, and subjecting them to torture while attempting to develop the most effective way to essentially melt them from the inside out.

2. After the FTW, the Thargoids retreated out of known space, not to be seen for hundreds of years, until their re-emergence in 3303 (Elite Dangerous). Prior to the re-emergence of 3303, humanity had expanded into areas still actively controlled by the Thargoids, now known as the Pleiades, Witch Head and Coalsack nebulae. As exploitation of the Pleiades sites increased, Thargoid craft began to emerge to investigate the invasion of their territory, where they were met with curiosity at first, then hostility as humanity attempted to scare the craft away so they could plunder the sites for their resources.

3. Now that the exploitation and abuse of the Pleiades sites was in full swing, the Thargoids responded by hyperdicting ships passing through their space, scanning them, then releasing them. The exception to this was if the craft was carrying thargoid technology or materials, in which case, the Thargoids would issue a audio-visual warning via a threat display, and offer the chance for their property to be returned. If the warning was ignored and the property not returned, only then would the Thargoids engage.


In every instance that the Thargoids have interacted with humanity, they have been passive until provoked. Humanity however has taken every chance to shoot at the Thargoids, or failing that, to study them to develop better ways to shoot them.
The Second Thargoid War and the Titans are just a response to a long series of human aggression against a species that never acted aggressively until pushed to it.


With all of the above in mind, I'm asking that the assaults against the Titans be ceased. AX pilot groups have already proven their bloodlust and desire to repeat the behaviour of early 20th century supremacy groups is powerful enough to corral the Titan's defensive fleets back into their origin system. This provides an opportunity to attempt contact, after the failure and sabotage of the Kingfisher outreach megaship.

I invite any Commander or diplomat from the major powers to give good reasoning behind why the assault against the Thargoids should be continued, without rehashing the same talking points which paint the Thargoids as aggressors, when humanity have always fired first.

Side note:
Think of this all as an in-universe post, I get that AX combat can be fun for those who enjoy shooting at the Thargoids that are capable of firing back, and I enjoy AX combat against the armed thargoids myself. But since when have the Pro-Xeno community been given anything at all?

While I applaud your efforts to stop it through moral means. Only the Thargoids themselves have the power to stop this. For whatever reasons they have chosen the path of non-communication despite the fact that they are the higher level being. All they would need to do is to actually start talking to humanity. If WE had faulted them, they could have brought their case to a human court. At the beginning there was plenty of people that wanted peace. They choose this path.

 

[Kira Goto]

If WE had faulted them, they could have brought their case to a human court.

Uh… excuse me? The human political system does not even recognize Thargoids as a species that can think and decide for itself. Any proof that we are the aggressors brought by them would just be ignored by those in power, at that.

And what makes you think any of our current political leaders (looking at Hudson especially) would be inclined to actually reason with the Thargoids over continuing to do what they have been doing for the better part of a decade, which eventually led to this war?

 

[Yure]

The story is orchestrated by FDev. Any wishes and politics are RP only, and that is ok. Of course the war is the key asset to the storyline/thargoid game-mechanic uninfluenceable in its very nature by players.

But... what all players (not necessarily Cmdrs) should be aware of: Humanity is here the bad guy without a doubt. This vision of the future by FDev is realistic i fear, so no general critizism about this.

Unless the canon story that they are using us as a speed bump against their enemies. Then their attacks was deliberate.

 

[Rainbro]

While I applaud your efforts to stop it through moral means. Only the Thargoids themselves have the power to stop this. For whatever reasons they have chosen the path of non-communication despite the fact that they are the higher level being. All they would need to do is to actually start talking to humanity. If WE had faulted them, they could have brought their case to a human court. At the beginning there was plenty of people that wanted peace. They choose this path.

What could they say that would make a difference?

Explaining why they're attacking? We know, we've known for years. Hasn't changed our course of actions, if anything the authorities doubled down.

Promising they'd stop if we stopped doing whatever? Easy, "they're lying, don't trust the bugs", checkmate Thargoids.

There are plenty of people that wanted peace. None of them are in charge.

 

[Yure]

Uh… excuse me? The human political system does not even recognize Thargoids as a species that can think and decide for itself. Any proof that we are the aggressors brought by them would just be ignored by those in power, at that.

And what makes you think any of our current political leaders (looking at Hudson especially) would be inclined to actually reason with the Thargoids over continuing to do what they have been doing for the better part of a decade, which eventually led to this war?

I think you lack faith in humanity. If the Thargoids had communicated, there would definitely have been larger player factions that would have sought to defend them. There definitely would have been political leaders to take to their up defense just to pick up more votes. And if they had gone through court humanity would have had to question the conundrum of their own humanity.

 

[Kira Goto]

I think you lack faith in humanity. If the Thargoids had communicated, there would definitely have been larger player factions that would have sought to defend them. There definitely would have been political leaders to take to their up defense just to pick up more votes. And if they had gone through court humanity would have had to question the conundrum of their own humanity.

A. Maybe, but at the same time, the propaganda Rainbro has mentioned above just convinced too many that the Thargoids are warmongering beasts that only understand violence (which is quite ironic, when we have gotten to the point where the Thargoids have clearly decided we only understand violence), and have no noteworthy intelligence. So I’m doubtful that wouls have happened on a significant enough scale to matter. If Frontier even cared at all, because they were not just going to dump the development effort put into the Titans and war scenarios.

B. “If they had gone to court” is an extremely big if - with our complete lack of understanding of anything Thargoid except “How do we best kill this thing”, we have no way of knowing if they are particularly aware of our political and societal system in any way, or if they are, even care for it beyond “This lot of smelly apes fights different than the ones a hundred light years away”… because we’ve not really given them a reason to be interested in it outside of a war footing. So they might not even have been aware it’s a possibility… and, frankly, after two attempts at widespread genocide, I would not be very inclined to go and talk either, because the other side has amply demonstrated that they have no interest in a chat.

Is that right toward those who have no interest in the war or provoking the Thargoids? No, but war rarely is. And our politicians don’t seem to have the interest of the common citizen at heart anyway, with a few possible exceptions that are absolutely not in positions where it matters (yet, if the ridiculous presidential situation of the Federation is considered).

 

[Yure]

Have you forgotten how they got here in the first place? Achilles even had us recover pieces of the drive built into Taranis (and, probably, the other Titans) to make their SCO prototype drive.

… not that I could claim to understand that, if it was not just a one-time use piece, why the Thargoids insist on staying in the Bubble to keep following through with an invasion plan that’s now a lot less likely to complete. Then again, maybe it was just to establish some kind of foothold for… something, but I could probably have imagined less expensive ways to do it than throw eight gigantic ships into a meatgrinder.

To be fair... Now that I've flown SCO overdrive... A few dead bugs was worth it. :-D

 

[TobiasFuzz]

Unless the canon story that they are using us as a speed bump against their enemies. Then their attacks was deliberate.

This is currently not supported by any in-game source. It is even unclear what of older Elite games can be declared canon or which books are still relevant for the ongoing Elite Dangerous story.

Nonetheless i am positively surprised how much RP energy/effort are players investing in this topic. I personally think that ED is first and foremost a role-play game... and so it is good that players are active in this part by taking both sides.