Opinion: 10 LY range for colonization is ridiculously low.

Longer range would allow anyone eager to get out there and litter the galaxy with small settlements, to do just that.
Now this could actually open up another large gameplay loop, if settlements space or planet bound could be allowed to fail, and I don't only mean those in deep space but those that have also been attacked by our unfriendly neighbours.

If the structures are allowed to remain it would allow for on foot scavenging and other such play and also repair and repopulation by better equipped groups or individual parties.
 
Now this could actually open up another large gameplay loop, if settlements space or planet bound could be allowed to fail, and I don't only mean those in deep space but those that have also been attacked by our unfriendly neighbours.

If the structures are allowed to remain it would allow for on foot scavenging and other such play and also repair and repopulation by better equipped groups or individual parties.
Fully agree! I expressed a similar thought a while ago: Make a maintenance cycle which is also in sync with costs of a carrier and remove failed settlements. Or better let explorers find the ruins.
I might change my career path to an ’exploring pirate' 😂
 
Now this could actually open up another large gameplay loop, if settlements space or planet bound could be allowed to fail, and I don't only mean those in deep space but those that have also been attacked by our unfriendly neighbours.

If the structures are allowed to remain it would allow for on foot scavenging and other such play and also repair and repopulation by better equipped groups or individual parties.
I love it!

Emerging gameplay? Check!
Dynamically changing environment as a result of player action/inaction? Check!
Interaction with BGS through simple means of maintaining (or abandoning) small colony? Check.

It has all the hallmarks of a feature that will never make it into the game, if experience is to be considered :D
But I really like the potential it has!
 
Fully agree! I expressed a similar thought a while ago: Make a maintenance cycle which is also in sync with costs of a carrier and remove failed settlements. Or better let explorers find the ruins.
I might change my career path to an ’exploring pirate' 😂

Please, not a fleet carrier upkeep kind of thing!

Colonized systems are inhabited by people and we don't own them personally.

Perhaps the role of Architect can be lost if you don't log on for a long time and can then be claimed by someone else.
 
Please, not a fleet carrier upkeep kind of thing!

Colonized systems are inhabited by people and we don't own them personally.

Perhaps the role of Architect can be lost if you don't log on for a long time and can then be claimed by someone else.
not a paid upkeep. That is too easy. I would expect upkeep tasks which creates a neutral or positive economy. Subsidizing through material influx (e.g. through carriers) should be allowed. But there needs to be a kind of lifecycle to create dynamics. Or we will see thousands of graveyard colonies.
 
not a paid upkeep. That is too easy. I would expect upkeep tasks which creates a neutral or positive economy. Subsidizing through material influx (e.g. through carriers) should be allowed. But there needs to be a kind of lifecycle to create dynamics. Or we will see thousands of graveyard colonies.
It would need careful balancing. but a certain amount of upkeep (goods) to at first get it to a self sustaining state then if the economy goes positive additional supplies to allow for expansion.

A failed colony would maybe be cheaper to attempt to resurrect than one lost to Thargoid action and definitely cheaper than starting from scratch because the basic structures would be repairable - reusable.
 
So the colony beacon becomes a nav beacon in a new system if I understand the sequence properly.

I know this may be off topic or inconsistent with the whole colony mechanic, suppose I wanted to build a station or land base within a currently occupied system or collaboratively with someone in my squadron - is that a possibility?

This seems to be a very single player centric structure if I understand it correctly.
 
So the colony beacon becomes a nav beacon in a new system if I understand the sequence properly.

I know this may be off topic or inconsistent with the whole colony mechanic, suppose I wanted to build a station or land base within a currently occupied system or collaboratively with someone in my squadron - is that a possibility?

This seems to be a very single player centric structure if I understand it correctly.
Yes, it would be great if I could mod some occupied systems. Frontier allowing it, though...
 
Can't wait for this feature. Once again 10ly is too limiting. Can't understand the logic behind this as there is no incentive to colonize system without any planets just because is 10ly away instead of one with tens of planets including earth like world's and terraforming potential ones few hundreds away. This of course is the game mechanic thing not immersion
 
Can't wait for this feature. Once again 10ly is too limiting. Can't understand the logic behind this as there is no incentive to colonize system without any planets just because is 10ly away instead of one with tens of planets including earth like world's and terraforming potential ones few hundreds away. This of course is the game mechanic thing not immersion
To reiterate, since the thread seems back on topic now, the 10LY range is likely because most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY. So upping to 20Ly could make sense, but beyond that, you're going to be standing up a whole bunch of colonies that don't do anything or behave very weirdly. Notwithstanding you can create some incredibly exploitable situations easily enough not because it's smart colonisation, but because the BGS is very exploitable and doesn't deal with edge-cases well. The current lone-systems and other robigo-like edge-cases demonstrate this well enough.

As one of many, many examples, Source Missions (e.g fetch us 20t of widgets)... they will only spawn if there is a station within 20Ly which stocks that item, not simply because the item is in demand at that station. That's why you never see source missions (only donation missions, which don't work the same) in remote (>20Ly) systems, usually[1].

On the surface you'd think it's "pick random commodity that i have in demand, create a random mission", it's actually not what happens, and there's heaps of examples... it's where the BGS has been almost over-engineered to the point of creating. It fundamentally comes down to creating achievable and fun activities, not random games of chance.

So the simple, fast way would be: Pick a random in-demand commodity and build a mission for a random amount of that commodity. The problem is you could be asking for items that are:
  • Not market available;
  • Not available within range the trade data in-game makes available (i.e not Inara); or
  • Require you to do an activity that isn't simple sourcing of goods (maybe it relies on a rare USS)

Some of these are more of an issue for new players, but it's that new-player experience that is also most crucial to retain new players (in order to sell ARX)... whereas salty olds will just go "Well that's just how the game works".

So instead, what I understand the BGS to do is instead go:
  • What do i have in demand
  • What systems are in range of my current location^
  • What stations are available in each of those systems^
  • What commodities are in supply for those stations^; and
  • Apply stateful and government-specific flavours and typing
  • What is the intersect between those supply commodities and my demand commodities; then
  • Pick a commodity

The ^'s indicate what could be a multiple-entity search across data holdings. And that blows out fast. To factor in Odyssey settlements[2], the usual case for a reasonably populated bubble looks like:
  • 50 populated systems within 20Ly,
  • each with 10-30 ports
  • each with, what, 60 odd commodities

So that's up to 90,000 commodity statuses reviewed just to generate one mission... if you throw in the fact there's 100 missions per board generation... the worst-case scenario here is you have to pull back and work through up to 9 million commodity records, just to generate a single mission board's "Source" missions. That's actually a lot of work. And that's just source missions.... every other mission type will likely have a similar generation process.

So... it's doesn't work like that per-se. I always wondered why the mission board was blobby... when there's 40 different anarchy factions in range which could be targeted by a massacre mission, why is a typical board generation always 4-5 missions each, targeting just 2-3 of those potential 40 factions, or same-same for delivery missions, to a particular station... the odds of that are very slim.

The simple answer is because, as above, it's a lot of effort to get the info to generate this stuff. So rather than repeat that query for N number of missions to generate... generate a random number of missions, modified for stateful effects. It's very likely that if I have demand for, say, Gold, that because 30 odd systems will supply gold... I have good chances of randomly serving that up again, so just use the same result set to generate more missions. This is less noticable with source missions, and more noticable with end-target missions... assassinations, massacres and deliveries, which will target the same faction or system statistically more than other systems... and yet you'll rarely get the odd mission here or there with a very different target; that's where it's run more than once, in order to get some variation, but not once for every mission you generate.

tl;dr it's all for efficiency of the BGS, so that you can get reasonable missions generated that are actually achievable.

So... the consequence of further than 20Ly, is suddenly all these factors are zeroed out. Sure, there are missions that aren't affected by this, such as Mining, Long-range Tourism and Charity... but are FD really going to punch out colonisation with more than 20Ly and just leave it as "These will always be mining, tourism or pure charity cases" regardless of the factors of the system, planets, etc.? That it doesn't matter if an ELW is in the system or not, because you're just too far out?

I'd be very confident that's not what people want from long-range colonisation. People who want this clearly care about the various factors of a remote system and picking a specific spot... to just flick that switch though and say "Here you go, a colony on it's own within a 5,000 Ly radius, but it's no different from any other at range because those factors don't matter thanks to how the BGS works" I suspect is going to considerably cheapen the experience for people who put effort into siting a colony.

There's a place people might say "well, colonies should have different rules", but that's a bad path... since you've now got two different logic sets needed for the BGS. That's already the case with many alternate mission generations such as in-flight missions, chain missions etc.. which all use different logic, and often get overlooked for general bugfixes. Two sets of logic would be a bad way to go.

The better path would be to re-engineer the BGS and it's mechanics... but do FD really want to chew that off for colonisation as well? Seems like a dangerous gambit to hit them both... even though it would make sense... the BGS is almost a rube-goldberg machine at this point, in that it's mechanations don't really create a hugely dynamic world... rather... just a very static one.

So, yes, maybe "fix the BGS then" is the answer; I certainly wouldn't be opposed to that, but is the community ready to sacrifice Robigo? Massacre Stacking? Stackable Trade Routes? Modern-day Rhea runs? Other exploitable artefacts of the BGS? You can sure as hell bet that it won't be taken as "FD fixed the BGS for Colonisation!"... instead being "FD Nerfed Robigo!". It's those edge-cases that exist purely because of the limitations of the BGS which would hurt how Colonisation beyond 20Ly would work, and again, putting this in the hands of players allows creation of those exploitable edge cases.

[1] Notwithstanding the odd post-thursday tick generations which are out to 200Ly, and don't seem to refresh after an hour or two.
[2] FWIW , I think Odyssey and Horizons settlements may actually get excluded from the search, unless you're at one already. You don't generally see general "find Nerve Agents" missions unless you're at a Horizons settlement to start with, given they're a Horizons-only commodity
 
I'm in an area with multiple player-driven factions. The BGS opera keeps going, and going. It will get crazier, if there aren't more jump-off points to work from, and that means a longer range.
 
BGS mechanics work again as soon as I colonize a bunch of systems within BGS range of my deep space target. Aside from being a non-issue, anyone that can build out can solve this problem on their own.
Unless development of a colony and available options depend on those same mechanics, which we won't know till the mechanic goes live.
 
not a paid upkeep. That is too easy. I would expect upkeep tasks which creates a neutral or positive economy. Subsidizing through material influx (e.g. through carriers) should be allowed. But there needs to be a kind of lifecycle to create dynamics. Or we will see thousands of graveyard colonies.

Like the thousands of graveyard systems in the bubble that people rarely visit, if ever?

They won't be graveyard, they will just be as is, just like the thousands of unpopular systems in the bubble.

But they will provide nice stopping off points for people out in the black, if way out there, and if on the edge of the bubble, they will be just one more small undeveloped system on the edge of the bubble.
 
To reiterate, since the thread seems back on topic now, the 10LY range is likely because most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY. So upping to 20Ly could make sense, but beyond that, you're going to be standing up a whole bunch of colonies that don't do anything or behave very weirdly. Notwithstanding you can create some incredibly exploitable situations easily enough not because it's smart colonisation, but because the BGS is very exploitable and doesn't deal with edge-cases well. The current lone-systems and other robigo-like edge-cases demonstrate this well enough.

As one of many, many examples, Source Missions (e.g fetch us 20t of widgets)... they will only spawn if there is a station within 20Ly which stocks that item, not simply because the item is in demand at that station. That's why you never see source missions (only donation missions, which don't work the same) in remote (>20Ly) systems, usually[1].

On the surface you'd think it's "pick random commodity that i have in demand, create a random mission", it's actually not what happens, and there's heaps of examples... it's where the BGS has been almost over-engineered to the point of creating. It fundamentally comes down to creating achievable and fun activities, not random games of chance.

So the simple, fast way would be: Pick a random in-demand commodity and build a mission for a random amount of that commodity. The problem is you could be asking for items that are:
  • Not market available;
  • Not available within range the trade data in-game makes available (i.e not Inara); or
  • Require you to do an activity that isn't simple sourcing of goods (maybe it relies on a rare USS)

Some of these are more of an issue for new players, but it's that new-player experience that is also most crucial to retain new players (in order to sell ARX)... whereas salty olds will just go "Well that's just how the game works".

So instead, what I understand the BGS to do is instead go:
  • What do i have in demand
  • What systems are in range of my current location^
  • What stations are available in each of those systems^
  • What commodities are in supply for those stations^; and
  • Apply stateful and government-specific flavours and typing
  • What is the intersect between those supply commodities and my demand commodities; then
  • Pick a commodity

The ^'s indicate what could be a multiple-entity search across data holdings. And that blows out fast. To factor in Odyssey settlements[2], the usual case for a reasonably populated bubble looks like:
  • 50 populated systems within 20Ly,
  • each with 10-30 ports
  • each with, what, 60 odd commodities

So that's up to 90,000 commodity statuses reviewed just to generate one mission... if you throw in the fact there's 100 missions per board generation... the worst-case scenario here is you have to pull back and work through up to 9 million commodity records, just to generate a single mission board's "Source" missions. That's actually a lot of work. And that's just source missions.... every other mission type will likely have a similar generation process.

So... it's doesn't work like that per-se. I always wondered why the mission board was blobby... when there's 40 different anarchy factions in range which could be targeted by a massacre mission, why is a typical board generation always 4-5 missions each, targeting just 2-3 of those potential 40 factions, or same-same for delivery missions, to a particular station... the odds of that are very slim.

The simple answer is because, as above, it's a lot of effort to get the info to generate this stuff. So rather than repeat that query for N number of missions to generate... generate a random number of missions, modified for stateful effects. It's very likely that if I have demand for, say, Gold, that because 30 odd systems will supply gold... I have good chances of randomly serving that up again, so just use the same result set to generate more missions. This is less noticable with source missions, and more noticable with end-target missions... assassinations, massacres and deliveries, which will target the same faction or system statistically more than other systems... and yet you'll rarely get the odd mission here or there with a very different target; that's where it's run more than once, in order to get some variation, but not once for every mission you generate.

tl;dr it's all for efficiency of the BGS, so that you can get reasonable missions generated that are actually achievable.

So... the consequence of further than 20Ly, is suddenly all these factors are zeroed out. Sure, there are missions that aren't affected by this, such as Mining, Long-range Tourism and Charity... but are FD really going to punch out colonisation with more than 20Ly and just leave it as "These will always be mining, tourism or pure charity cases" regardless of the factors of the system, planets, etc.? That it doesn't matter if an ELW is in the system or not, because you're just too far out?

I'd be very confident that's not what people want from long-range colonisation. People who want this clearly care about the various factors of a remote system and picking a specific spot... to just flick that switch though and say "Here you go, a colony on it's own within a 5,000 Ly radius, but it's no different from any other at range because those factors don't matter thanks to how the BGS works" I suspect is going to considerably cheapen the experience for people who put effort into siting a colony.

There's a place people might say "well, colonies should have different rules", but that's a bad path... since you've now got two different logic sets needed for the BGS. That's already the case with many alternate mission generations such as in-flight missions, chain missions etc.. which all use different logic, and often get overlooked for general bugfixes. Two sets of logic would be a bad way to go.

The better path would be to re-engineer the BGS and it's mechanics... but do FD really want to chew that off for colonisation as well? Seems like a dangerous gambit to hit them both... even though it would make sense... the BGS is almost a rube-goldberg machine at this point, in that it's mechanations don't really create a hugely dynamic world... rather... just a very static one.

So, yes, maybe "fix the BGS then" is the answer; I certainly wouldn't be opposed to that, but is the community ready to sacrifice Robigo? Massacre Stacking? Stackable Trade Routes? Modern-day Rhea runs? Other exploitable artefacts of the BGS? You can sure as hell bet that it won't be taken as "FD fixed the BGS for Colonisation!"... instead being "FD Nerfed Robigo!". It's those edge-cases that exist purely because of the limitations of the BGS which would hurt how Colonisation beyond 20Ly would work, and again, putting this in the hands of players allows creation of those exploitable edge cases.

[1] Notwithstanding the odd post-thursday tick generations which are out to 200Ly, and don't seem to refresh after an hour or two.
[2] FWIW , I think Odyssey and Horizons settlements may actually get excluded from the search, unless you're at one already. You don't generally see general "find Nerve Agents" missions unless you're at a Horizons settlement to start with, given they're a Horizons-only commodity

BGS mechanics work just fine in inhabited systems further than 20LY from any other. They work just fine in inhabited systems that are hundreds or thousands of LY from any other inhabited systems.

Pretty boring BGS stuff going on, no expansion, limited missions, but they work as designed.

Can we please stop with the narrative that it will break the BGS and that's why FD don't want to do it, because it doesn't break the BGS.
 
BGS mechanics work just fine in inhabited systems further than 20LY from any other. They work just fine in inhabited systems that are hundreds or thousands of LY from any other inhabited systems.

Pretty boring BGS stuff going on, no expansion, limited missions, but they work as designed.

Can we please stop with the narrative that it will break the BGS and that's why FD don't want to do it, because it doesn't break the BGS.
The only person pushing the narrative of a broken BGS seems to be you? I certainly didn't say it was broken, and you seem to be building a strawman to push that idea.

But do you really think the BGS doing "pretty boring stuff" will be acceptable for people building a remote colony?

Do you really think it's acceptable for the colony development mechanics to not be informed by what's going on in systems around it?

I think the answer is no, it's not going to be accepted by the player base at large.... and for colonisation to work in total isolation of the BGS mechanics, well, that's going to be pretty kludgy and awful.

Personally, call me a troll if you will, but as things currently stand I'll gladly use colonisation under current BGS mechanics to bust-up some of the current FOTM activities by placing a few inconvenient bases with the right faction peppered around... if nothing else to highlight how fragile things are right now.

EDIT: To be clear, do you really think the player base would accept that the actions of a single player could, say, destroy Robigo runs as a concept? Or would it be better if FD took that matter into it's own hands (i.e they rework the BGS mechanics as-needed), ahead of Colonisation?
 
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The only person pushing the narrative of a broken BGS seems to be you? I certainly didn't say it was broken, and you seem to be building a strawman to push that idea.

But do you really think the BGS doing "pretty boring stuff" will be acceptable for people building a remote colony?

Do you really think it's acceptable for the colony development mechanics to not be informed by what's going on in systems around it?

I think the answer is no, it's not going to be accepted by the player base at large.... and for colonisation to work in total isolation of the BGS mechanics, well, that's going to be pretty kludgy and awful.

Personally, call me a troll if you will, but as things currently stand I'll gladly use colonisation under current BGS mechanics to bust-up some of the current FOTM activities by placing a few inconvenient bases with the right faction peppered around... if nothing else to highlight how fragile things are right now.

EDIT: To be clear, do you really think the player base would accept that the actions of a single player could, say, destroy Robigo runs as a concept? Or would it be better if FD took that matter into it's own hands (i.e they rework the BGS mechanics as-needed), ahead of Colonisation?

You said:

"because most BGS mechanics only work within 10-20 LY"

Also, others have also tried to make the case that FD are keeping it short because BGS mechanics don't work beyond normal BGS range.
 
But do you really think the BGS doing "pretty boring stuff" will be acceptable for people building a remote colony?
My focus is the building, and having that remote system with a station out in the middle of nowhere exactly where I want it. If someone else wants to show up and play BGS, they're welcome to, but I'd already have everything I want. No missions? As if setting up the next neighboring colony isn't my entire focus when I'm not using it as a launch point for exploring.
 
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