I don't think that's true because in my powers discord it's recommended mining and selling or donating in specific systems will be a great way to earn merits, so if both players do this the T9 is going to be a much more effective miner than the T6 right? So the T9 player if doing it correctly would rank up much faster, is that not true?
It's great to be back but I have a big concern
- Thread starter Refreshing Truth
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You tried mining in a T-9 as a new player?
Ideally you'll want a Python anyway, especially if you're selling in the same system.
That said, if a mining system is tactically relevant, it's already a stronghold and other players will be maintaining it as such. If it's not tactically relevant, who cares?
Expansion DLCs which do not grant any competitive advantage in any form to anyone who buys them, or expansion DLCs like Horizons and Odyssey which grant significant competitive advantages to their purchasers?
My stance is pretty simple:
- the game has always had some mechanisms, with various branding, to gain a range of competitive gameplay advantages by spending more money than other players (aka P2W)
- DLCs don't stop being P2W just because they're bought directly with internationally convertible currencies rather than indirectly with ARX (Horizons was ridiculously P2W; Odyssey less so to start with but increasingly now)
- the current quickstart ships provide considerably less advantage than many of the P2W things that Frontier have sold over the last decade in their DLCs, so if I didn't quit over those I'm hardly likely to care in the slightest about some new player I'll never meet getting a moderately-well-fit T-9 via ARX rather than via an established friend's 200MCr donation.
- if anything the slippery slope from Horizons to Odyssey to a few quickstart ships seems to be giving less advantage per currency unit than before.
If you take the stance that DLCs can't be P2W, and therefore Frontier should rebrand its future P2W offerings as DLCs so that you can pay cash for those advantages with a clear conscience, then ... well, I'll be the first to agree with you that Frontier's terminology and marketing sometimes shoots it in both feet with parts of the player base.
Who cares how many hours anyone has or how they got to the ship they are flying? Making slower progress than another pilot due to a pre-built is really nothing in the grand scheme of things. Personally, I think buying a pre-built has one missing the grind and grit that refine a great commander, but that's just my opinion. Play however you like. If the slog is too much, buy a pre-built or play a more arcade-style game.
Even Power CZs seem to have dried up, at least I can only see 1 contested system on the galmap and my power has no presence in that system.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. I've seen so many gold rushes in this game, a buddy of mine did core mining back when it was a thing and in a week had every ship in the game that wasn't rank locked. Word gets around and it's well known on this and other forums.
Even if you bought a T-9 and used it to influence Power Play, you can't win as a solo player. It's harder to flip a system than to keep it and you'll likely draw the ire of a player group who will flip it back faster than you can even begin to do. Even if you are competing for the same system that's currently unoccupied, you won't gain any advantage over the other player because he can build the same ship with the same capacity.
There's nothing to gain or win except sort cutting your time to get something.
I don't care how much someone plays, I was trying to give a clear example of why I disagree with this person's statement that 'buying a better ship than somebody else will have absolutely 0 affect on how quickly you rank up in PowerPlay compared to them', so it was important to set the parameters for the example.
I totally agree with you about the grit and experience of working your way up, however I guess where we disagree is I don't think it should be an option to pay to skip that as it's a form of cheating, I'm just old school and want rewards in games to mean you likely had to put the work in, even if it's grinding, my preference.
The new players I know do what's interesting to them from a RP point of view, that's what I did and still do too, that's what's enjoyable to most people in games, it's been ironic in this thread that all the same people who are telling me competition doesn't exist in this game are the same ones advocating for new players to look up the min max route to earn millions of credits straight away and claiming that's normal behaviour. It's normal behaviour for sweats who are being competitive, not most casual new players.
The meaning of pay to win is defined as 'using real money to gain in game advantages over other players in any sense', nobody is claiming it's a winning screen that pops up, that's such a tired avoidance of the issue, new players can now buy a T9 that makes them vastly richer and stronger contributor to the games competitive systems, do you agree with this or disagree with this being added to the ship store?
Whether it's pay to win or not is not up for debate as buying in game progression in a mmo is pay to win by definition, people choose their own goals in elite, those goals are the wins.
I'm with you there...but this game has some steep learning curves for a lot of people. Steep enough that it has kept people from progressing and continuing the game. It takes a lot for folks to just learn how to fly out of the mail-slot without a docking computer. I can understand the discouragement when you finally become proficient at flying and then see there is still so much more to do.
While flying wasn't much of an issue for me (long-time player of Tie Fighter and Discovery Freelancer) I still want a lot of people to play the game because I want it to keep going and improving. So, to me, if pre-built ships make the tent bigger and gets more people to join our little community, I'm all for it.
Sorry you keep avoiding the topic and adding new variables into what we're debating, honestly it feels like you're trying to pivot the debate away from the very simple premise:
2 players of exact same experience and in game assets start PowerPlay, one buys a T9 on store, one just has a basic T6, they to do hauling for merits, which one ranks up faster?
The answer is obviously the T9 player earns more merits and credits faster assuming they have the same game knowledge and time to play.
What's wrong with admitting the above is true?
It's possible, but the common consent seems to be: Who cares? Given the vast resources available online, any player can gain a T-9 or something better within a few hours, or a few days maximum, that will be better as any quickstart ARX ship. If one thinks those ARX ship offer a real advantage, one doesn't really know how the game works these days. The quickstart T-9 isn't a magic "I win" button.
Nobody cares.
I would say that's a reasonable assumption as a general rule, but I've run into a lot of players over the years who min/maxed because that's the way they play games. They also ten to move on pretty quickly.
For me, sometimes a goal is what motivates me, I want to get this engineer or ship. I never tried to get to elite in anything, it just happened along the way.
As far as the rank locked ships ever being offered for sale, I doubt that would happen.
I'm feeling what you're saying, I don't think I agree pay to skip helps those players though, or at least it doesn't help them in the way that is ethical or sustainable, I don't think paying to bypass adversity (even if that adversity is boring grind) is a good precedent to set, slippery slope argument, we gonna let them pay to skip other challenges in the game too? For example pay to instant build stations in your colony, pay to skip travelling 20,000 ly out of the bubble and so on... BUT I very much agree 'it takes all sorts to make a world' and if Elite is gonna be a really interesting sandbox mmo it would be nice if there were activities more casual players could do early on before they have to start navigating the galaxy map ui and trade economies, I think having access to NPC pilots to fly your own ships (slower than a real player) would be good for those types of players and make a lot of sense with the direction the game is going with colonisation and bigger economic goals.
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If players want to skip beginner content, they can even without paying ARX. Lots of "get rich quickly" and "skip grind X to get Y" guides out there. The quickstart ARX ship aren't really worse.
Don't get me wrong; I too think skipping the early content is bad and makes for a worse experience later on, when people realize that there is nothing left after they skipped the "grind". But the ARX ships don't really make that worse... if anything it maybe prevents players from burning out on following grind guides just to realize that there is no real reward at the end.
There's always this weird balance to be struck that we need to have goals to aim at, but also it's the journey there that ends up being the real fun, the feeling of success doesn't last that long and if you did nothing to get there (like instantly swiping in an online store) then it could feel like quite an empty victory, but if you went on an adventure of highs and lows then it's so much more.
Look at the responses you're getting. No-one cares and if you think a new player is really making more merits in powerplay using a T-9 to shift any dials, it's a skill issue on your part.
Saying this matters is deliberate misinformation and attempting to gaslight players into thinking this is somehow wrong because you want to gatekeep the way we did it as the only way you can be a "true" ED player. That's my issue.
I agree that, no matter how content is skipped, you as the player miss out. Early in my pilot's career I made the wise choice to ignore all the "get rich quick" or "easy ways to get X" schemes and learn how the game works instead, and I am glad I did. But in my opinion that's a personal decision, and constantly looking at how other CMDRs might do and wondering if they have an advantage by doing <X> is just... it's misguided and leads nowhere. I don't miss out because another CMDR can get asset X faster than I do. That's just not the point of the game.
The problem is the game does have competitive elements and so I think it's fair for people like me who enjoy casually engaging in that, to be put off by ships being sold that could help me and others progress and impact that competition more effectively, for example the A class engineered T9 in the store, it just feels weird handicapping myself by not just buying it
It just seems like you wanted to say there is no pay to win in Elite and then when I gave you a simple and clear example of it you keep avoiding discussing that example.
I care about pay to win in Elite and what it could mean for the future as it evolves, sounds like you don't which is totally fine too, you've told me why I shouldn't care because players can eventually surpass the ships sold in the store, I get that and I think it's true, but I'd push back and say for how long will the late game be free of pay to win when the nature of p2w monetisation teams is to maximise sales by selling the most desirable things. My prediction is we will p2w expanding in scope in the coming year unless there's big push back as new paid advantages are rolled out.
I can agree with this.
Not so much this.
Powerplay especially, it's just a matter of putting time into it...
I have done alot of Powerplay with the best gear in the game...I've never been in the top ten Cmdrs for my power.
As far as an A-rated T9 goes, I could make a new account today, and be flying a T9 tomorrow by making cash using exobiology.
People who have the by-far the biggest advantage in Elite, are people who are willing to sink the most time into it...but there is nothing FDev can do about that.