New ship: Panther Clipper

[Kallipar]

And I can say, why are those examples all offensive? For example with engines. You could have drag drives that offer the speed they do but actually be unreliable, thus making non boosted drives viable but also promoting clean drives which could have lower fuel use / more stable SCO / require less maintenance

Without being facetious, that is a another layer of complexity, which may have a future and it is not for me to say. Weapons are the most prevalent item and the most essential in game. Offense is indeed the best defence. If a NPC is stationary and can't use its defences, then you win at Pirating, attacking, defending and if you blow it up well all the better
If you want an example of drives being ineffective Dirty Drag Drives on a ShardConda were not the best solution as Hydra's targeted them first, Strengthening although making the ship even more of a house brick made it possible for the average Joe to survive, or even Strengthening Double Braced for even more integrity. For that purpose I designed and ran a ship that had max integrity and could survive Hydra love bites for much longer.

You can argue that is niche and yes it is, but investigating the other effects does make you more aware of the depth in game. Another use very pre Thargoid was the use of clean drives on a small ship making it invisible anything outside of Line Of Sight. I had great fun hanging around Jamesons trolling the gankers there. I play the game for fun. Maybe my next Ship will be called One Punch Man .

 

[Rat Catcher]

Or that with drag drives every so often the boost might not work, so that in combat you might have luck against you, and that when you are hit by drag munitions you can't boost out.

Do NPCs use drag munitions?

If not, I suspect the argument may be solely academic for some of the players who post on this here forum...

 

[Rubbernuke]

Without being facetious, that is a another layer of complexity, which may have a future and it is not for me to say. Weapons are the most prevalent item and the most essential in game. Offense is indeed the best defence. If a NPC is stationary and can't use its defences, then you win at Pirating, attacking, defending and if you blow it up well all the better
If you want an example of drives being ineffective Dirty Drag Drives on a ShardConda wasn't the best solution as Hydra's targeted them first, Strengthening although making the ship even more of a house brick made it possible for the average Joe to survive, or even Strengthening Double Braced for even more integrity. For that purpose I designed and ran a ship that had max integrity and could survive Hydra love bites for much longer.

You can argue that is niche and yes it is, but investigating the other effects does make you more aware of the depth in game. Another use very pre Thargoid was the use of clean drives on a small ship making it invisible anything outside of Line Of Sight. I had great fun hanging around Jamesons trolling the gankers there. I play the game for fun. Maybe my next Ship will be called One Punch Man .

I talk about everything else other than weapons because there is more to a ship than shooting things (which is something I'd never hear myself say)- its why I'm illustrating this as much as possible without combat in mind but from other perspectives. The Thargoids never took over the galaxy making changes actually relevant for most players... while having a well engineered T-9 that was built with an awareness for superpower / faction type, maximum efficency and ease of repair would. Trucking would then require more thought as to what you flew and where just as much as an awareness of markets. Right now advice is 'get a Cutter'- soon it will be 'get a Panther' and the T-9 will be the new T-7. To me thats wasting massive potential to make flying and owning certain ships rewarding because the lack of constraints imposed.

This can be extended to other ships- for example the FdL and other high end exotic combat ships- if you made them tempremental and unreliable unless spotlessly maintained you'd make owning and using them more involved. These constraints could be mitigated via engineering but lower the potential, or make pirates and criminals think twice about indiscriminate use because only high end places can fix them. This would then make lesser more generic ships candidates for crime, as thats what works the best.

Thats the complexity I'd want to see as engineering, ships, BGS / PP and other factors correctly synergise into a satisfying game.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Do NPCs use drag munitions?

If not, I suspect the argument may be solely academic for some of the players who post on this here forum...

But then again (as I pointed out) it makes choices matter and possibly attenuate combat ships in certain modes. For example if the attacker opted for clean drives they would not be as fast, making the disparity between ships less but if hit by drag they could still deal with having the throttle jammed.

 

[Kallipar]

We all have choices, and the PC is one of them. What is envisaged by the OP is a space trucking simulator and some other esoteric decay mechanics relating to PVP and applying them to PVE which is nonsense. Most of the dynamic decay is already in place. A maximum of 2 million bounty for ganking is pitiful. Making ships go off-line because of damage is already there, so really nothing new. Ship engineering, its variety and the game is meant to be fun and I am looking to see how Vanguards will help. If I wanted everything spreadsheets I would go to Eve Online. (Yes I know, Colonisation is a spreadsheet, but thats until the 3rd parties get involved ). One final thought is that large number of people in this game are explorers, they would have no interest in this solution either.

If you want to learn more about how engineering can help you, hit me via DM or via ENEX Squadron

 

[Rubbernuke]

We all have choices, and the PC is one of them. What is envisaged by the OP is a space trucking simulator and some other esoteric decay mechanics relating to PVP and applying them to PVE which is nonsense. Most of the dynamic decay is already in place. A maximum of 2 million bounty for ganking is pitiful. Making ships go off-line because of damage is already there, so really nothing new. Ship engineering, its variety and the game is meant to be fun and I am looking to see how Vanguards will help. If I wanted everything spreadsheets I would go to Eve Online. (Yes I know, Colonisation is a spreadsheet, but thats until the 3rd parties get involved ). One final thought is that large number of people in this game are explorers, they would have no interest in this solution either.

If you want to learn more about how engineering can help you, hit me via DM or via ENEX Squadron

We will have to agree to disagree there.

What is envisaged by the OP is a space trucking simulaton

Given my post history and what I do in game thats not exactly the case.....

 

[Morbad]

Unfortunately, this is not true, its maximum empty speed is 600, we load it, load it, and it still remains at 600. Is this mathematics?

Yes.

The reason it stays 600 is because it's difficult to reach the minimum mass rating of the thrusters. Still math.

My old Buick has enough power to get to 140+ mph, on level ground, before it's capped by air or rolling resistance. However, it also has a governor to limit it to 120mph, because that's already 35mph higher than any posted speed limit in the States, and because the tires start to melt much past that. I can reach that 120mph limit with a thousand pounds of cargo in the car, or with one of the doors propped open, because it has power to spare, but with the stock governor in place, it will not go past that limit no matter what is done to it's aerodynamics or rolling resistance. Doesn't mean it's defying any physical laws or any mathematical truths, just that the computer refuses to inject more fuel past a certain point.

just pure magic.

So is FTL anything, but magic isn't the problem with that, the lack of internal consistency, or at least the lack of an internally consistent explanation for the apparent arbitrariness of the mass lock value, is.

 

[metatheurgist]

We've gotten a long way from talking about the Panther Clipper. Thread must be approaching natural death.

 

[Rat Catcher]

But then again (as I pointed out) it makes choices matter and possibly attenuate combat ships in certain modes. For example if the attacker opted for clean drives they would not be as fast, making the disparity between ships less but if hit by drag they could still deal with having the throttle jammed.

You skirted around the comment elegantly. (Which I had already guessed would be the response - but teasing is still permitted here!)

The only time I have encountered the use of drag munitions is by another player (with me in a Courior that had just boosted to 777 m/s the drag delay was only academic in that case too!), I have never encountered a NPC, no matter what level, using that experimental, so I doubt the prospect would be of much concern whilst players may elect to not meet other players, either completely, or in chosen quantities.

 

[Rat Catcher]

We've gotten a long way from talking about the Panther Clipper. Thread must be approaching natural death.

It is the forum, it is for complaining about all and sundry regardless of topic, isn't it?

 

[Rubbernuke]

You skirted around the comment elegantly. (Which I had already guessed would be the response - but teasing is still permitted here!)

The only time I have encountered the use of drag munitions is by another player (with me in a Courior that had just boosted to 777 m/s the drag delay was only academic in that case too!), I have never encountered a NPC, no matter what level, using that experimental, so I doubt the prospect would be of much concern whilst players may elect to not meet other players, either completely, or in chosen quantities.

I don't want to be drawn into The Vortex[TM] so I was trying to be as general as possible. Frankly I'd love NPCs to use drag munitions (esp in PP2)- very few NPCs use effects and those that do stick to boring ones. But also I was thinking about making Open less intimidating, given some players give up when they see an FdL.

 

[SergMx]

Yes.

The reason it stays 600 is because it's difficult to reach the minimum mass rating of the thrusters. Still math.

My old Buick has enough power to get to 140+ mph, on level ground, before it's capped by air or rolling resistance. However, it also has a governor to limit it to 120mph, because that's already 35mph higher than any posted speed limit in the States, and because the tires start to melt much past that. I can reach that 120mph limit with a thousand pounds of cargo in the car, or with one of the doors propped open, because it has power to spare, but with the stock governor in place, it will not go past that limit no matter what is done to it's aerodynamics or rolling resistance. Doesn't mean it's defying any physical laws or any mathematical truths, just that the computer refuses to inject more fuel past a certain point.

I would agree with you if we were talking about cars and not spaceships.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I don't want to be drawn into The Vortex[TM] so I was trying to be as general as possible.

Neither of us wish for that!

 

[Joe Cool]

Could the Panther Clipper please, please, please be manufactured from Anacondomium?
The resultant mass optimisation should make my aspirational 2,500t hauling capacity simples

 

[Morbad]

I would agree with you if we were talking about cars and not spaceships.

The exact same premise applies. The limits involved don't directly stem from natural law, but from arbitrary limiters. The car prevents fuel flow to the engine after a certain point. A velocity limiter in the game prevents, or counters, thrust after a certain velocity (relative to some arbitrary reference point) is reached.

 

[SergMx]

The exact same premise applies. The limits involved don't directly stem from natural law, but from arbitrary limiters. The car prevents fuel flow to the engine after a certain point. A velocity limiter in the game prevents, or counters, thrust after a certain velocity (relative to some arbitrary reference point) is reached.

Sounds like a gunshot sound generator muffler in a vacuum.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Could the Panther Clipper please, please, please be manufactured from Anacondomium?
The resultant mass optimisation should make my aspirational 2,500t hauling capacity simples

I'll do you a deal, the PCmk2 can have Anacondomium if the armour hardness is dropped to 30 or below for these magic ships.

 

[Morbad]

Sounds like a gunshot sound generator muffler in a vacuum.

They are both handwavium.

However, there is a clear difference in how that handwavium is implemented.

The game isn't simulating sound traveling through vacuum or rarefied atmospheres anywhere. It has an entirely normal sound engine that applies some filters to some environments. In this case the depiction of 'simulated' sounds is achieved by mostly doing nothing.

The game does have an actual Newtonian physics engine underpinning most movement, and actively applies relevant forces to keep certain objects on rails. The forces are all calculated and applied in accordance with that physical simulation. The depiction of speed limits in space is achieved by doing a lot of extra work. This is more clear if one experienced the early game and actually saw all the increasingly heavy handed attempts required to keep players from regularly breaking those limits...which can still be broken in some niche scenarios by finding combinations of forces that exceed even the magical values the limiters can apply.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

from posts i have noticed from you i feel you want Elite to be more of a pure sandbox where you get the toys as easily as possible and you get to play with them. (a bit like minecraft creative mode or lego fortnite sandbox mode)

where as I would prefer elite to be more of a role playing game where i am a commander with very little with dreams of being the captain of a huge fleet of ships and the game for me isnt about having access to all the toys in the game - or at least that is only my end game goal.

for me the game is about the journey of how to get to that point, i want to try my hardest to earn stuff but at the same time i want that to be difficult and take time. i want to sometimes be stuck in objectively worse gear as i save up for better stuff. BUT it is by this metric where i believe i am not wrong in saying in many ways the game is worse today than it was in 2014, despite having a huge amount more "stuff".

skinner box? perhaps in part! but that is part of most RPGs where you do stuff to earn better stuff..

No offense taken. I'm not sure that accurately defines me, but let's move past me for discussions sake:

The big issue with your approach is that FDEV would necessarily have to scale that journey individually for everyone based on available playtime, player skill level, and other variables. Which is impossible in the current environment as it's not a single-player RPG. How would they be able to do this and find that sweet spot for everyone? It doesn't seem possible unless I'm missing something.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

No offense taken. I'm not sure that accurately defines me, but let's move past me for discussions sake:

The big issue with your approach is that FDEV would necessarily have to scale that journey individually for everyone based on available playtime, player skill level, and other variables. Which is impossible in the current environment as it's not a single-player RPG. How would they be able to do this and find that sweet spot for everyone? It doesn't seem possible unless I'm missing something.

Agreed I think you hit the nail on the head WRT it being a really big ask...... and indeed many expressed that concern right back that the start when the game was being pitched. We were essentially told trust us we have a plan!. and David Braben stating that whilst Elite would technically tick boxes to be an MMO, it was not one in his view and it certainly would not be like any other MMO which came before.

Me personally...... had i of had my way i would have had a single player focussed game like the previous 3 titles BUT allowed online groups where other people could bring in their pilot and do "stuff" and on logging out take some of that progress with them.

maybe there could have been a choice of shared universes with some carry over between members, and maybe the BGS could still have linked in for some form of player affected economy...... but imo making elite an MMO has massively limited the potential in so many areas (example.. initially the plan was space stations would have been destructible. they even have working emergency blast doors ... then FD realised if they did that certain organised groups would make it their mission just to make the universe burn, so instead they made everything of note indestructable.

i am digressing now, but TLDR you are right, its a massive headache to balance but FD were warned of this problem but they had a plan!.