The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Darrack]

Could PvP become "viable" and if so, how?

It is viable, it just needs folks to organise a scrap in a random system.
That unfortunately is not what many on here want (ie a fair fight), they just either want more innocent victims (in the case of gankers) or have some misguided conception that PvP will help them conquer all in PP or the BGS, newsflash it wont.

O7

 

[Robert Maynard]

Thought experiment time:-

Could PvP become "viable" and if so, how?

For a start, the game would need to be limited to a play area of a "sensible" size, i.e. not 400 billion systems (or even the 20,000 inhabited systems of the bubble pre-colonisation) - in an effort to increase average number of players per system. Then there are the players with little or no interest in PvP to think about - as they bought the game on the same basis as those who enjoy PvP - so there still needs to be a game for them to play, without attempting to force them to play among the PvPers.

Or, (my view if I am honest) is the implementation we have now, with all the flaws, the best we can get given the engine/tech limitations?

Not forgetting Frontier's approach to player choice, i.e. one player's choice does not entitle them to take choices away from other players.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

That's easy: when both sides want it to happen. Noting that this probably isn't the answer that some want.

My answer too.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Thought experiment time:-

Could PvP become "viable" and if so, how?

Or, (my view if I am honest) is the implementation we have now, with all the flaws, the best we can get given the engine/tech limitations?

Currently problem for PVPers is that ED is not really a PVP game, it is kind of tacked on element but it does not really work out as good PVP game.

You can have PVP on ED, but organic and good PVP? Seems rather hard. That would need major redesign, probably one alienating other players for good.

 

[ethelred]

It is viable, it just needs folks to organise a scrap in a random system.
That unfortunately is not what many on here want (ie a fair fight), they just either want more innocent victims (in the case of gankers) or have some misguided conception that PvP will help them conquer all in PP or the BGS, newsflash it wont.

O7

So only organised PvP and no organic?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Thought experiment time:-

Could PvP become "viable" and if so, how?

Or, (my view if I am honest) is the implementation we have now, with all the flaws, the best we can get given the engine/tech limitations?

Is viable the right word? PvP is viable right now, from a certain point of view.

For me to be interested in PvP, it needs to be fair and balanced. I'm fine with PvP in a range of games, none of them open world, because they usually fail at the fair and balanced requirements. Its usually arena style games.

For me, for PvP to be fun, the only deciding factor should be skill, with perhaps a little RNG thrown into the mix. It shouldn't matter what class, vehicle, spaceship, whatever you are using - those need to be balanced around PvP.

ED's ships are not balanced around PvP. Engineering worses the whole concept of balance.

And on the occasions FD have made changes in relation to PvP, its generally made the PvE experience worse (eg: missile/torp nerf).

 

[Agony_Aunt]

So only organised PvP and no organic?

Imagine a game mode a bit like CQC, but where you could go in and build any ship you wanted with any engineering you wanted - that might be fun and somewhat fair. If you want to go into it with a Sidewinder, hey, have fun, if you want to be competitive, then you go in with your meta PvP build.

 

[ethelred]

Imagine a game mode a bit like CQC, but where you could go in and build any ship you wanted with any engineering you wanted - that might be fun and somewhat fair. If you want to go into it with a Sidewinder, hey, have fun, if you want to be competitive, then you go in with your meta PvP build.

Isn't this Open as it stands right now?

 

[Robert Maynard]

So only organised PvP and no organic?

So-called "organic" PvP, in this game (even in Open) will often end up in a situation where it doesn't meet the "both sides want to participate" hurdle - simply because the only populated game mode that PvE players are guaranteed to have access to is Open.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Isn't this Open as it stands right now?

Completely different. Engineering in open (or PG/solo) requires collecting materials, visiting engineers, etc. Also in open, you're flying ships not designed for combat in an arena, you're flying trade ships to trade, exploration ships to explore, etc. This would be a mode you specifically go into for combat... if you want to do an exploration build in this mode, well... good luck!

 

[ethelred]

So-called "organic" PvP, in this game (even in Open) will often end up in a situation where it doesn't meet the "both sides want to participate" hurdle - simply because the only populated game mode that PvE players are guaranteed to have access to is Open.

Well, what would you call it if not organic?

I'm not sure, over our many interactions, if you've explained how choosing Open isn't consenting to PvP given the FD description of the mode. Could you?

I'm not a member of Mobius, but isn't that for PvE exclusively? (Ofc with a membership limit)

@Agony_Aunt - so it would be a separate mode - no chance of a rock, paper, scissors (trader, pirate, bounty hunter) encounters?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well, what would you call it if not organic?

Forced? Unwanted (often)? Disregarding what the target wants?

I'm not sure, over our many interactions, if you've explained how choosing Open isn't consenting to PvP given the FD description of the mode. Could you?

While playing in the only game mode with an unlimited population, which is PvP enabled, leads to a not unreasonable presumption of consent, when it comes to it the target is free to make clear their position by leaving the encounter (using menu exit) and / or blocking the attacker. Some attackers don't like that however it's a case of their choice meeting up, and not being able to over-ride, the choices available to other players.

If the game offered a PvE version of Open (that would also affect the shared galaxy) in addition to Open then it'd be clearer cut, as each player would then have a choice of a game provided multi-player mode with PvP on and with PvP off. As it is those who don't enjoy PvP need to balance their dislike of PvP with their desire to play among other players that they hope to play co-operatively with.

I'm not a member of Mobius, but isn't that for PvE exclusively? (Ofc with a membership limit)

It is - however it is not advertised by the game and even if it was it's "full" (of members who may not have played in years) - and with more than 4M copies of the game sold (and 8M given away in the Epic store giveaway) the membership limit of Private Groups is pitiful in comparison to the number of game copies in circulation.

@Agony_Aunt - so it would be a separate mode - no chance of a rock, paper, scissors (trader, pirate, bounty hunter) encounters?

While the pirate and bounty hunter may have fun, dependent on traders that were forced to play among, them there's no guarantee that the traders would have any fun - however fun at the expense of others seems to be a common enough theme for those in support of PvP.

 

[Doctor Dread]

A PvE version of Open (or PvE/PvP flag in the one existing Open) would solve it all.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Does not remove nice little problem, either you have long slugfest with losing side going away in the end anyways, or need some either unwanting or gullible enough noob as target.

Even if this is a trivial and extremely narrow generalized view, both cases seem acceptable to me.

 

[Doctor Dread]

Even if this is a trivial and extremely narrow generalized view, both cases seem acceptable to me.

Well you have it now, what's the problem? Not enough victims?

 

[Aaron T]

I laugh that someone who broke their neck and endured surgeries with permanent hardware attached to their spine in the service of their country, and every job they ever had put their life in danger on a regular basis is insulted as weak or scared, and other names we cannot mention here, simply because they chill out in games, having lived through as much adventure and real adrenaline in their life that a video game can never match.

Let me tell you what I have seen over the years. Playing in a private group with a new friend for a few years. He came from playing solo to private group, just as I did, and several other friends.

It was so long ago I cannot remember if it was on Discord we met or in Mobius.

We would go about picking up mats on a planet for hours, mining, running cargo, grinding forever.

Eventually the group grew, and we all played in private groups for years.

I was gone for a while but came back and was told the group was open only now, which was great.

I had a mostly engineered Vette, and he told me to shoot at his ship to see how good his ship was, so I blipped him, he said to really shoot at him and try to kill him. In 30 minutes, I could not bring his shields down.

He had done all the engineering and power play and everything up to this point, for years, in solo and private group.

But now that he had an almost invincible ship, he made the open only rule.

One evening there were some pretty rude insults by a friend in open toward another player which really caught me off guard, so I googled his handle and a Reddit thread came up and him and several old longtime solo/private group only friends for years who had also built up everything they had in solo and private groups where bragging about how big and bad they were, and how only cowards played in solo or private groups.

They bragged that their circle of friends played in open only and always had.

And they bragged about killing noobs who screwed up (But using a nastier way of putting it) and made the huge mistake of logging into open, and other things.

My former best ED playing friend was fortunately not in the thread.

I commented to the guys about the thread, and about how we had played for years in private groups and was quickly kicked from the group.

I have seen with my own eyes many folks claiming to have thousands of hours in open only yet spent years with them in a private group.

 

[ethelred]

A PvE version of Open (or PvE/PvP flag in the one existing Open) would solve it all.

How so?

How would it work with Powerplay?

 

[angusmadmac1]

The problem with a PvP flag is that if we are all playing in open now and we dont see anyone now having a flag won't make a difference cos we still won't be seeing anyone . There needs to be a better way of instancing ?

 

[Robert Maynard]

How so?

How would it work with Powerplay?

It would work with Powerplay as it does at the moment - those who want to PvP within Powerplay would play in PvP-Open / with PvP-flag on, those who don't want to PvP within Powerplay would play in PvE-Open / PvP-flag off (instead of / as well as Solo or Private Groups).

It would not force any player to engage in PvP if they don't want to, even within Powerplay.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The problem with a PvP flag is that if we are all playing in open now and we dont see anyone now having a flag won't make a difference cos we still won't be seeing anyone . There needs to be a better way of instancing ?

If a PvP flag was implemented it'd be better to use its setting to affect the matchmaking system so that only players with the flag set the same could possibly instance together (other limitations to instancing notwithstanding).