Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Agony_Aunt said:
...then there is a serious breakdown in understanding.
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There always is in any gaming community, surely you have noticed such?

One person sees an issue, another doesn't, it will ever be thus.

One player doesn't care about 'expert opinions' and spend their money as they choose, another player considers this unfair, for whatever reason they elect.

We'll never be in agreement on what P2W might be, in this game or any other, as it is the individual who elects to spend their money, again, for whatever reason they choose - if it bothers someone else, well, it isn't their problem, is it? (Which is precisely how I feel about buying anything for Arx in this game, my choice, tough if it bothers anyone else - I'm the person playing how I wish, which suits me just fine)

Other individuals may choose how they play, how much, if any, real money they spend, that is entirely their decision, isn't it?
 

Mr Lindsay

M
Agony_Aunt said:
Depends on what you mean by meaningful.

Let me quote myself:

Latest CG, the clearest example of P2W in ED to date?

I wonder if anyone who paid for PCII will respond here with statement that a main reason for purchase is winning anything, and not those like... I purchased the PCII to make colonization easier. Absolutely. There was no other reason for me to purchase it. My dedicated bulk transport Cutter...
forums.frontier.co.uk forums.frontier.co.uk



Do you care about that or not? Its fine either way, that's your choice. Do you consider that not to be meaningful? Ok, that's your choice.

Is there an advantage to opening your wallet? That is indisputable.
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For starters, you've pulled your figures from Uranus.
The current cut off is around 1800. That's 2 trips in a Panther, 3 trips in a Cutter/Type-9. +1 trip.

With 13000 players already in the CG, there isn't likely to be more than a few hundreds of tonnes of movement, but lets say it unusually doubles to 3600 tonnes.
That's 3 trips in the Panther, 5 trips in the Cutter/Type-9. +2 trips
(Just in case it isn't obvious, I'm being generous to you here. There are numbers I could pick where they could land on the same number of trips.)

Currently there are ports within a single jump with the required goods, close to the star so no SCO difference. That's a difference of maybe 20 minutes gameplay for two extra round trips. Over the course of a two week CG, no, I don't think a 20 minute difference is meaningful.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Rat Catcher said:
There always is in any gaming community, surely you have noticed such?

One person sees an issue, another doesn't, it will ever be thus.

One player doesn't care about 'expert opinions' and spend their money as they choose, another player considers this unfair, for whatever reason they elect.

We'll never be in agreement on what P2W might be, in this game or any other, as it is the individual who elects to spend their money, again, for whatever reason they choose - if it bothers someone else, well, it isn't their problem, is it? (Which is precisely how I feel about buying anything for Arx in this game, my choice, tough if it bothers anyone else - I'm the person playing how I wish, which suits me just fine)
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Well, maybe we will agree on some P2W in some games unless we really have really opposed ideas of what P2W is... i'm pretty certain if FD sold a new weapon exclusively through the store that had higher DPS than any other weapon in the game, you would say it was P2W.... wouldn't you?

Other individuals may choose how they play, how much, if any, real money they spend, that is entirely their decision, isn't it?
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Absoloutely, I've never said otherwise and it isn't even part of this topic. I'm not questioning people's rights to buy the PC, i'm questioning FD's decision about this CG and whether its the clearest example of P2W to date... although as was brought up earlier, its not, the sale of ships themselves is a much clearer example, so my premise was wrong there, its a smaller example,
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
WillFrog said:
To anyone crazy dedicated enough to get into the top 10, that amount of money is a rounding error they won't even notice. That's all I'm saying. But fair enough. Let's just agree to disagree.
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LOL, i'll never get into the top 10 at any CG for sure, PC or not. I most certainly don't have the time or patience to haul so much.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Mr Lindsay said:
For starters, you've pulled your figures from Uranus.
The current cut off is around 1800. That's 2 trips in a Panther, 3 trips in a Cutter/Type-9. +1 trip.

With 13000 players already in the CG, there isn't likely to be more than a few hundreds of tonnes of movement, but lets say it unusually doubles to 3600 tonnes.
That's 3 trips in the Panther, 5 trips in the Cutter/Type-9. +2 trips
(Just in case it isn't obvious, I'm being generous to you here. There are numbers I could pick where they could land on the same number of trips.)

Currently there are ports within a single jump with the required goods, close to the star so no SCO difference. That's a difference of maybe 20 minutes gameplay for two extra round trips. Over the course of a two week CG, no, I don't think a 20 minute difference is meaningful.
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Ok, but at least you agree it does make a difference.

Depending on the person and their availability, that could be make or break for them.

You could argue that "sucks to be them" or similar if someone has so little playtime, but if the difference is whether they opened their wallet or not allows them to hit the required target, it saves them that 20 minutes, then there is the advantage.

Its a common defence used by people who support P2W. You may have heard the argument "I'm a working man with a family, I don't get much time to play. This is why i support the sale of X for real money. It means i get to enjoy the game and earn Y that I wouldn't be able to otherwise". I mean, I can understand where they are coming from and why they support P2W in their circumstances, but should a game have P2W to support such players? Its a contentious subject.
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Agony_Aunt said:
Well, maybe we will agree on some P2W in some games unless we really have really opposed ideas of what P2W is... i'm pretty certain if FD sold a new weapon exclusively through the store that had higher DPS than any other weapon in the game, you would say it was P2W.... wouldn't you?
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When that happens, maybe...
As it hasn't happened, and is incredibly unlikely to happen, it just feels like clutching at straws to illustrate a point that we don't agree upon.

You believe in P2W, I find it quite silly, but I am certain that there are folk who believe thay can 'win' a computer game and that it has some sort of meaning, sadly, I am not one, so the concept is meaningless to me.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Rat Catcher said:
When that happens, maybe...
As it hasn't happened, and is incredibly unlikely to happen, it just feels like clutching at straws to illustrate a point that we don't agree upon.

You believe in P2W, I find it quite silly, but I am certain that there are folk who believe thay can 'win' a computer game and that it has some sort of meaning, sadly, I am not one, so the concept is meaningless to me.
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Well, i believe its P2W because for me P2W is a sliding scale from the minor to major rather than some sort of black/white issue or it only becomes P2W when its so egregious that it cannot be defended.
 

Reggit

Reggit
Mr Lindsay said:
Play as much as you want, with whatever ship you want, and see where the results sit. Just throwing in 1 tonne gets you most of the rewards.
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1753529384135.png

I decided to deliver a whole 8 tons (I was feeling generous)
Still enough for 1 each of the engineered cargo racks - that'll do!
Agony_Aunt said:
Its only just started, its got 4 weeks to run.
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1753529469361.png

Inara is predicting closer to one week (Unless FDev move the goalposts of course!)
 

vanFace

V
Agony_Aunt said:
I mean, I can understand where they are coming from and why they support P2W in their circumstances, but should a game have P2W to support such players?
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I think yes. Because it actually is the other way around: such players support the game developers with money. Could that be exploited by the devs just for a money grab? Yes, of course! However, I have not seen FDEV executing such a nefarious scheme yet.

In the end, it is about trust. If enough people trust FDEV to use the P2W system just for game support, they will keep on playing and shelling out money. If not, they will stop to do that. Propaganda the one or the other way will most probably only marginally skew the trust people have in the end. Actions of FDEV, OTOH, have the potential to do that. And their actions in the past regarding P2W showed a sensible approach IMHO.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
vanFace said:
I think yes. Because it actually is the other way around: such players support the game developers with money. Could that be exploited by the devs just for a money grab? Yes, of course! However, I have not seen FDEV executing such a nefarious scheme yet.

In the end, it is about trust. If enough people trust FDEV to use the P2W system just for game support, they will keep on playing and shelling out money. If not, they will stop to do that. Propaganda the one or the other way will most probably only marginally skew the trust people have in the end. Actions of FDEV, OTOH, have the potential to do that. And their actions in the past regarding P2W showed a sensible approach IMHO.
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My trust in FD has unfortunately eroded over the years.
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
Agony_Aunt said:
Well, i believe its P2W because for me P2W is a sliding scale from the minor to major rather than some sort of black/white issue or it only becomes P2W when its so egregious that it cannot be defended.
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And you are quite correct in your opinion.
I just hold an entirely different one, maybe as I can actually say 'No' when I wish?
The sneak peek at the next ship suggests it will be a miner, I won't spend a single Arx on that, as mining holds no interest for me. Others will as they are interested, will I have 'lost' by not buying it?
 

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher
vanFace said:
If the P2W gets too painful, they will stop.
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If prices are too steep, it is likely that less dedicated folk will say no, I think that observation is correct.
While it is still a toss-up between a new ship or a pint of beer & a packet of crisps, things are not too dire for some of us.
 

SteveWW57

SteveWW57
With the reward structure and rewards of this CG, I cannot get passionate about the debate.

IIRC there was a time when ships were the reward (T6, iClipper?) and not everyone was able to get the reward because of the cut off. This advantaged those with the time and inclination. If these were the rewards, then I would likely be a bit more passionate, and might even splash out my saved arx from playing to buy a PC2.
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
WillFrog said:
To anyone crazy dedicated enough to get into the top 10, that amount of money is a rounding error they won't even notice. That's all I'm saying. But fair enough. Let's just agree to disagree.
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See, that's another thing...

It's all very well saying the PC2 is "P2W" but, even if you buy the Stellar version, you're still going to have to do a fair amount of engineering to optimise the ship.
While it's (hopefully) undeniable that flying a PC2 does yield some advantage, it's not like a total newbie can just buy one and dominate a hauling CG.

More blatant examples of "P2W" are (as Morbad said) probably the jump-start ships... and they're not especially useful as a result of some of FDev's "interesting" module choices.
The sort of "P2W" that would concern me would be if, for example, FDev released a jump-start ship that was comparable with my PvP Python Mk2 or my Exploration Annie.
That would be allowing people to simply skip all the effort required to build an "apex" ship...as well as negating the cost of rebuying it upon destruction.

So, yeah.
Early Access undeniably provides some (temporary) advantage but not a massive one.
More "Pay 2 Do A Bit Better For A Few Months" than "Pay 2 Win". :unsure:
 
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