Game loses something by not forcing Open play

[Antmax]

I wonder if those wanting to separate the play modes have any history with the Elite game franchise. From what I have read so far, it doesn't seem like it. This game was made by Elite fans for elite players first and in that they have mostly succeeded. Not X-wing vs tie fighter, Wing Commander or console kids with Rogue Squadron.

People who grew up with Elite probably understand why the game has turned out the way it has because it keeps with the spirit of the original games.

For PvP I play War Thunder. Where you get rewarded for taking part and don't actually lose anything. You always get research points, crew points and currency to spend and expand your fleet of planes and tanks whether you win or lose.

Elite Dangerous, especially early on. You risk everything on the whim of a potential psychopath getting kicks out of ruining other peoples play. I remember being on the Xbox live beta and being quite excited. Moto GP was a pretty cool game with open chat between you and the nearest racers. It was fun right up until some plonker decides it is fun to run the wrong way around the track knocking people off bikes to see the ragdoll physics. Not to mention the immature overgrown kids and sometimes actual kids (hard to tell with realtime voice alteration) being abusive.

There are tons of reasons outside of potentially cheating, why people might choose solo over open. Best way to make open more popular is to make it more appealing as a coop game in such a way that solo players are tempted to join in more.

I haven't had a reason to play solo since gamma came out. But that would change very quickly if too many players turned up wanting to spoil my game with constant PvP. Thankfully I haven't really seen anyone online. I chatted with a couple of War Thunder Joystick BarStewards squad buddies but they started 70+ lightyears away from me so have never actually seen them in game.

 

[philux]

I wonder if those wanting to separate the play modes have any history with the Elite game franchise. From what I have read so far, it doesn't seem like it. This game was made by Elite fans for elite players first and in that they have mostly succeeded. Not X-wing vs tie fighter, Wing Commander or console kids with Rogue Squadron.

People who grew up with Elite probably understand why the game has turned out the way it has because it keeps with the spirit of the original games.

For PvP I play War Thunder. Where you get rewarded for taking part and don't actually lose anything. You always get research points, crew points and currency to spend and expand your fleet of planes and tanks whether you win or lose.

Elite Dangerous, especially early on. You risk everything on the whim of a potential psychopath getting kicks out of ruining other peoples play. I remember being on the Xbox live beta and being quite excited. Moto GP was a pretty cool game with open chat between you and the nearest racers. It was fun right up until some plonker decides it is fun to run the wrong way around the track knocking people off bikes to see the ragdoll physics. Not to mention the immature overgrown kids and sometimes actual kids (hard to tell with realtime voice alteration) being abusive.

There are tons of reasons outside of potentially cheating, why people might choose solo over open. Best way to make open more popular is to make it more appealing as a coop game in such a way that solo players are tempted to join in more.

I haven't had a reason to play solo since gamma came out. But that would change very quickly if too many players turned up wanting to spoil my game with constant PvP. Thankfully I haven't really seen anyone online. I chatted with a couple of War Thunder Joystick BarStewards squad buddies but they started 70+ lightyears away from me so have never actually seen them in game.

Funny thing is that even if you only wanted to play PvE with them, you'll probably never catch up with them unless you intentionally fly towards each other. So in the end, ED is truly the single player MMO all the real Elite fans were waiting for

 

[Zenicetus]

So in WoW THE key element of PvE was raiding with raid groups up to 40 players. Hence, ED needs a raid mechanism and an option to beam your friends, who might be thousands of light years away, to your location.

C'mon, don't be silly. The mechanics don't have to be identical, for two games to share similar concepts about player freedom of choice between PvE and PvP.

For what it's worth, in the years my wife and I spent in WoW, we did very few raids requiring large Guilds, because our free time for gaming was too difficult to schedule and block out for raids. We mainly played against the PvE environment, smaller dungeons helping friends, and in PvP battlegrounds. We left the game at around the point that Blizzard realized it needed to offer dungeon instances for smaller groups so it wasn't so large raid-centric.

It's been years since we left WoW, so I don't know what the setup is now. But it's still around, which should count for something. It's amazing how much of the dialogue in threads like this assume EvE is the only possible model for a game that supports multiplayer.

 

[Coyote]

I quit playing after the game crashing on my two days agao. Now that I'm back in today, both the missions I was running had timed-out. To be frank: I don't give a hoot about anybody else playing this game. I just want to be left alone, and play when I feel like playing it. This stupid synchronous time is an annoyance. All I wanted was pretty much the old Elite, not some Eve-WoW-Whatever thing with a "living universe". I really don't care about that. If I did, I'd have never played Frontier or First Encounters.

 

[philux]

C'mon, don't be silly. The mechanics don't have to be identical, for two games to share similar concepts about player freedom of choice between PvE and PvP.

For what it's worth, in the years my wife and I spent in WoW, we did very few raids requiring large Guilds, because our free time for gaming was too difficult to schedule and block out for raids. We mainly played against the PvE environment, smaller dungeons helping friends, and in battlegrounds. We left the game at around the point that Blizzard realized it needed to offer dungeon instances for smaller groups so it wasn't so large raid-centric.

It's been years since we left WoW, so I don't know what the setup is now. But it's still around, which should count for something. It's amazing how much of the dialogue in threads like this assume EvE is the only possible model for a game that supports multiplayer.

In your special case, where you live with the person you are playing co-op PvE with, seems feasible. But in generally if you want to play PvE with your friends you're pretty much screwed since they can currently be hundreds of light years away from you.

 

[Antmax]

Funny thing is that even if you only wanted to play PvE with them, you'll probably never catch up with them unless you intentionally fly towards each other. So in the end, ED is truly the single player MMO all the real Elite fans were waiting for

My squad mates are slowly migrating towards SOL where we will most likely meet up. But so far we have been easily distracted on the way and are in no hurry. One bought a hauler and is trading for a cobra. I'm a short sub 12 ly range explorer/courier in a Viper with 12t cargo and a single laser whilst another buddy is looking for juicy mining opportunities and lucrative spots in preparation for release after gamma. Oddly for a previously PvP WW2 fighter squadron none of us have been out intentionally seeking combat. I guess that's what War Thunder is for.

 

[FX2K]

Are we there yet ?

Computer says no. A few hundred posts or 13 days should do it.

 

[Zenicetus]

In your special case, where you live with the person you are playing co-op PvE with, seems feasible. But in generally if you want to play PvE with your friends you're pretty much screwed since they can currently be hundreds of light years away from you.

Well, in WoW it sometimes took a while travelling to a different Zone to meet up with a friend. Especially when it meant traveling through some hostile areas to get there.

The time investment may be larger in this game, but if players are motivated enough, they'll arrange to meet up. Isn't there an Exploration group or two already? If Alliance/Wing mechanics arrive, there should be some players motivated to fly as trader + escort, or pirate + large freighter smuggler. And that can happen either in private Online Groups or All Online as the players choose.

 

[philux]

My squad mates are slowly migrating towards SOL where we will most likely meet up. But so far we have been easily distracted on the way and are in no hurry. One bought a hauler and is trading for a cobra. I'm a short sub 12 ly range explorer/courier in a Viper with 12t cargo and a single laser whilst another buddy is looking for juicy mining opportunities and lucrative spots in preparation for release after gamma. Oddly for a previously PvP WW2 fighter squadron none of us have been out intentionally seeking combat. I guess that's what War Thunder is for.

Well, in WoW it sometimes took a while travelling to a different Zone to meet up with a friend. Especially when it meant traveling through some hostile areas to get there.

The time investment may be larger in this game, but if players are motivated enough, they'll arrange to meet up. Isn't there an Exploration group or two already? If Alliance/Wing mechanics arrive, there should be some players motivated to fly as trader + escort, or pirate + large freighter smuggler. And that can happen either in private Online Groups or All Online as the players choose.

So in essence, it means that it needs dedicated co-op groups that stick together and, consequently, a player who wants to go a little bit on his own might not be able to catch up again with his group later.

Doesn't sound like a well-designed multiplayer concept if you ask me ;-)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Isn't playing with others fun? Isn't that enough? Group and solo play only come with problems, just look at this very thread.

What? We play group/solo to avoid problems.

But still, PvE and PvP are pretty much the exact same thing, how can you enjoy PvE but not PvP?

Because we know in PvE an attacker isn't some teenage jerkoff just looking to get a kill and feel big about it. And we can play a relatively stress free game and choose our engagements.

you make open play worse by avoiding it.

By not taking part in something we make it worse?

I really seriously have to assume you are totally trolling us now. Those really can't be serious arguments you are trying to field.

 

[Jaeger]

Solo mode is fine for getting the basics down but you can't expect that you can handle yourself if you don't have any real experience with real people. If you can hold your own in a basic sidewinder, be it fighting your way through or out of a situation, then the better off you'll be overall. Plus, it's free!

I'm not using this as a rationality for ganking people. I don't believe in it. On the contrary, I'm just explaining that to get good at something you have to test yourself. You learn how and when to attack. How to evade and escape when things go south. Don't be afraid of losing ships. Insurance covers most and what you do lose you gain in experience. Only people can teach you this. But, again if you expect to take a "uber-ship" out into OpenPlay with only pve experience you will be unpleasantly surprised at what a basic sidewinder can do in the right hands. And frankly I think you're only cheating yourself if solo is the only way you'll play.

Yeah but your argument is based on the assumption that AI is easy to beat. When in fact AI can be tuned to be unbeatable, never missing a shot, managing power perfectly.

If you are arguing that PvP gives better competition, because your opponent is human and therefore not unbeatable; in that case you would be making sense.

And no I'm not advocating playing exclusive PvE, I'm simply rebutting your absurd assertion that PvP should be mandatory for all. Having the option to swap to and fro is good, the only issue being that there is no group PvE, it;s PvP or solo PvE (Or intelligent people like Mobius group). there should be a PvP off flag in Open FTW.

 

[philux]

I really seriously have to assume you are totally trolling us now. Those really can't be serious arguments you are trying to field.

Uhm, just a little hint: calling other people 'trolls' while posting 3 times a random pic of dude with a big mustache to introduce your reply is a little bit rich, don't ya think

 

[Zenicetus]

So in essence, it means that it needs dedicated co-op groups that stick together and, consequently, a player who wants to go a little bit on his own might not be able to catch up again with his group later.

Doesn't sound like a well-designed multiplayer concept if you ask me ;-)

Multiplayer concepts need to fit the gameworld being presented, or else the gameworld isn't believable. Elite Dangerous takes place in gameworld that's a semi-realistic 1:1 scale model of the Galaxy, where the only shortcuts to deal with the mind-boggling number of stars and distance are FTL travel in-system and between stars. It's reasonable to expect players who want to join up, to spend some effort doing that.

Unless this is shifting into an argument about how players should be able to teleport between their stored ships (not going to happen), or that there should be fewer star systems, so players will be more concentrated (also not going to happen), the I don't see the problem here. Players with friends will find ways to group with each other, and they're already doing that. FD will inject events to draw strangers together. That should be enough.

Edit to add: A player has already reached the center of the Galaxy, just a couple of weeks after Gamma and before the game is even released. That's a lot of flight hours, but I think it shows that it won't be too difficult for friends to meet up when they want to.

 

[Jaeger]

So, anyone made a new point that hasn't already been covered numerous times in previous threads?

No, didn't think so.

How about waiting to see how it actually plays out?

I think I do, we need to start talking in correct terms. At the moment "Open" play is an option and it sounds reasonable that people should play in the "Open". But "Open" does not describe the PvP adversarial nature of Open play.

So instead of OP saying, "players should be forced to play in Open", instead Op should say "Noob players should be forced to play in the Griefers Paradise. I play in Griefers paradise and everyone else should too. it's much like a hazing experience, you have to suffer through being ganked to be considered a real player. Being ganked in griefers paradise is what needs to happen to all noobs so that they learn to gank other noobs in a perpetual circle of frustrating hateful gameplay". NOTE (This is not hyperbole, Open PvP is a griefers paradise)

Or... play solo when you feel like it, and open PvP when the mood takes you.

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Unless this is shifting into an argument about how players should be able to teleport between their stored ships (not going to happen).

Why can't I play in which ever ship I own? - Why not?

 

[Antmax]

Why can't I play in which ever ship I own? - Why not?

You are supposed to be able to have your ship transported to another location for a fee should you relocate. Hopefully it will be implemented soon. It might be quite expensive but 10,000 here and there is pretty easy to come by for an experienced player once you have spent a couple of days in game.

 

[Flying Penguin]

You are supposed to be able to have your ship transported to another location for a fee should you relocate. Hopefully it will be implemented soon. It might be quite expensive but 10,000 here and there is pretty easy to come by for an experienced player once you have spent a couple of days in game.

Even now, you can buy and sell Sidewinders, buy an additional craft, fit with fuel scoop, fly to your old location, sell Sidewinder, fly back in old ship. The extra ship costs ~32k but the loss after trade in should be minimal

 

[Zenicetus]

Why can't I play in which ever ship I own? - Why not?

You can right now. Just fly your current ship to wherever your other ships are stored and do the swap at the station. Or if you want to leave ships at different locations, buy a stock Sidewinder as a disposable taxi and sell it when you get there. As Antmax mentioned, there is supposed to be a ferry service available at some point for ship delivery. It's not in the game yet.

What the game won't do, according to the devs, is let you teleport your pilot between ships at different locations. It's a hands-on-stick flying game.

 

[Jaeger]

You can right now. Just fly your current ship to wherever your other ships are stored and do the swap at the station. Or if you want to leave ships at different locations, buy a stock Sidewinder as a disposable taxi and sell it when you get there. As Antmax mentioned, there is supposed to be a ferry service available at some point for ship delivery. It's not in the game yet.

What the game won't do, according to the devs, is let you teleport your pilot between ships at different locations. It's a hands-on-stick flying game.

Ahh... ok, cheers for explaining that I can fly back to the location of my second ship. Thanks really. That's super helpful. Totally what I wanted to know. I'm all sorted out with that key knowledge now so great!.

Another question would be, why can't I teleport to the location of my stored ship? How does that restriction enhance the game?

 

[Driver]

So much to say on this topic:

1. If Open truly offers the best game play experience, then that is where most of the players will be.

2. FD's decision to allow us to freely switch between Open, Group. and Solo is brilliant. Forced PvP is a sorry excuse for developers who are unable to create otherwise compelling game play.

ED, with the three online modes sharing the same universe, is going to be great! I'll be able to share my passion for Elite game play with my friends in Open and Grouped modes. It is even possible that the some of the PvP'ers will learn to enjoy to solo and cooperative gaming.

To those who remain steadfast in trying to force PvP; too bad for you! Looks like you've lost.

 

[Vandaahl]

Another question would be, why can't I teleport to the location of my stored ship? How does that restriction enhance the game?

If you can teleport to a location, why would you need a ship in the first place?