The X-Rebirth Thread

[PacalB]

why, why did they mess everything up with this ridiculous cartoony black outlines and overuse of SSAO, this is just way too much. Blergh.

If this look can´t be turned off I´ll pass

Because I can't bear to see you blubbering like that about SSAO, this is for you. Answered.

http://youtu.be/DNz99IPWtJE?t=3m14s

 

[Cathy]

Hehehe be nice now Cathy. lol

I can be nice . I've just found my copy of X2 - both discs and manual inc. copy protection key on the back intact in the case... Trade Fight Build Think. Maybe I can post it to someone who would like to try getting it to play. Anyone want?

edit: now I remember why I bought it. From the back blurb: "X2 fills every niche I've coveted since the days of Elite II"

(it didn't live up to that for me, obviously)

 

[Associat0r]

I can be nice . I've just found my copy of X2 - both discs and manual inc. copy protection key on the back intact in the case... Trade Fight Build Think. Maybe I can post it to someone who would like to try getting it to play. Anyone want?

edit: now I remember why I bought it. From the back blurb: "X2 fills every niche I've coveted since the days of Elite II"

(it didn't live up to that for me, obviously)

Indeed, I found it so disingenuous and insulting to my intelligence when people called Eve or the X series anything remotely close or even a successor to the Frontier: Elite series, that it totally turned me of from the genre.

 

[PacalB]

I can be nice . I've just found my copy of X2 - both discs and manual inc. copy protection key on the back intact in the case... Trade Fight Build Think. Maybe I can post it to someone who would like to try getting it to play. Anyone want?

edit: now I remember why I bought it. From the back blurb: "X2 fills every niche I've coveted since the days of Elite II"

(it didn't live up to that for me, obviously)

lol

Yes well, I hear you completely. You know, all space games after Elite 1 played off it in some way or other, yet none ever came close. The problem with these X games is they didn't have a designer or set of designers whom were heavily influenced by actually science and physics, the Elite series of games did (David).

Well, lucky for us ... the boss is back and he has a fully trained combat crew with him this time. Can you imagine whats in store for us this time round? We are about to have our minds completely blown is my guess. Its going to be one of those games where we just keep saying; "bloody heck ... bloody heck ... oh bloody heck!"

 

[matthewdbenson]

When I first saw a video of X-rebirth my immediate thought was:

"Oh no, someone is going to burst FD's bubble and release a more visually appealing game sooner - we're now not going to see the 'upcoming video', because it won't be able to stand up next to the X-rebirth trailers".

I principally I thought this because I liked (i) the gorgeous views outside space ship, with amazing detailed space stations and detail of 'traffic lanes', (ii) the ability already to walk around ship (and space station!); and (iii) the sandbox approach.

That said, at the same time, I didn't like (i) the cockpit (looks like it is made of stone, and takes up far too much of the screen, almost like the old games that needed to reduce screen real estate for memory management reasons); (ii) 'boxes' of space, connected by highways (rather, let ME choose when and where I fly - that is what 'sandbox' means to me), (iii) the ship's motion (I can't put my finger on it, but some said "treacle" or "butter" - to me it seems jerky, slow, and seemingly has no momentum).

Then Mike seemed to almost confirm my fears:

Elite will have cockpits just like this one and you're not going to be able to toggle them off either.

I can assure you that we're not at the same level they are yet. I'm certain we can achieve at least the same level of graphical quality upon release but for now we're not there. The "cartoony" effect you're referring too is obviously a stylisation they've decided to apply which is a good idea in my opinion. Games that utilize such stylisation typical look good for many years to come rather than those those that go for a realism looking dated almost immediately.

I'd like to think that FD isn't aiming to "achieve at least the same level of graphical quality upon release", but rather lead the market, albeit make choices about what it wants to present, so maybe going down a different route to X-rebirth's busy space cities.

I'm more relaxed again now, because:

(a) thinking back to FD's newsletters (better cockpit!), dev diaries (better ship motion!) and sneek peeks (more realistic, less OTT graphics!) I'm confident that E: D is going to be the right mix of graphics, realism, and gameplay - FD is "making the game that they want to play", not copying anyone else;

(b) I vastly prefer FD's style of cockpit (why did Mike say E: D's will be similar? - E: D's looks MUCH better to me).

(c) I think Eric was spot on regarding the graphics and motion, with his post:

Without a question there is a lot of skill that has gone into creating this game. From a purely technical standpoint the graphics are great (although maybe a bit dated compared to current titles, especially in regards to the characters). It's just the general art style (that seems to be rather common in eastern europa) that I personally always found to "busy" and "cluttered".

In many of the vistas you can see in another new video they just put up here there is just to much stuff filling up the screen. Especially the first vista they show ten seconds into the video.

As Associat0r said above it's more "fantasy space" rather than "sci fi". In many ways these environments could just as easily been different dimensions and you could have been riding a dragon or a flying boat.

I have always like a more minimalistic and "monolithic" style with more sedated color schemes and clean lines. I guess my "IKEA-genes" as a Swede shows.

So far you guys have pretty much nailed my personal preferences in regards to this when it comes to ship designs. I also hope and think that your space stations will be more "solitary jewels in space" rather than the extremely busy "space cities" we see in this game. As a lot of of have written in this forum, we want space to feel vast, grand and seamless and if you fill it up with to much stuff that feeling gets lost. Sure, there will probably still be some areas that will have a lot of activity (spaceports), but I hope you are not going for the (IMO) insane levels of activity we see in X-Rebirth. Basically, I still want to be able to see some stars in the background!

And while we are on the subject of the background. "Spacefog/mist" (whatever that suppose to be?), nebulas everywhere that pretty much drowns out all stars and huge planets placed so close to each other the almost touch one another is big NO! These are another of those things that so many space games seems to do that always feels more "fantasy" rather than "sci fi".

In regards to control scheme I don't really have any big objections. The way the ship handles and always seem to align to the "horizion" is a bit annoying though. I don't expect this to be the case with ED though. Especially since we are going to breath down your neck about it during the alpha/beta if we don't like it.

I myself want 3D cockpits, so no problems there.

The cockpit in X-Rebirth is to detailed though (same argument regarding art style as above). That detail can somewhat take away focus from what is happening outside the window. I would much more prefer a more clean, minimalistic and dark cockpit. Basically, what I would expect to see sitting in the chair of the ship in Newsletter 8 (the top banner). BTW, two thing about that piece of concept art:

1. It's absolutly gorgeous and I love that the chair is hanging down from the ceiling!!! Really sets it apart from pretty much any other game out there,. More of the same please!

2. That's the inside of a Asp, is it not? (Dreams of exploring)

Anyway, making the design of the cockpit a lot "cleaner" and darker coupled with the holographic projections you already have shown us will make all the difference. After all, we want the player to focus on what's happening outside, not being stuck looking at some piece of wire sticking out of a screen on your console. A bonus is of course that this type of art style takes less time to model!

Generally speaking, I think that you should keep pushing the holographic approach even later down the line in future expansions. Think of the ships interior more like a "blank slate" that can be filled with content with the help of projections and augmented reality. This seems to be the direction we are heading in the real world anyway.

Sure, that is certainly true and is indeed something that works well in a single player game. The main danger of course is that if a player don't like that particular cockpit he/she is still stuck with it with no ability to change. I don't agree that it would be a good idea in ED though since it's also multiplayer. Everyone flying around in exactly the same ship? Nope, doesn't compute in my head. Why play together if you can't have truly specialized roles. Even if there would be a lot of customization options it would never be the same thing as a group of small fighters defending a large transporter or any of the new passenger ships. It would also be pretty hard to justify why only players are locked into one type of ship while there is tons of other types out there piloted by NPCs, unless of course there was only one single type of ship in the entire universe...Hmmmm... the iShip maybe?

E: D might also not be perfect, but it will be the game we all looked forward to, and I'm confident that it will be the best it possibly can, in that context.

 

[Frank]

I'm a little concerned about the announcement that the cockpit view is mandatory. This means that not all the pixels on my telly are going to be used to display information. The struts might shiggle a little to convey the effect of G-Force, but then they'll settle back down to the job of obstructing my view.

This could make head tracking much more popular for this game. People are going to want to have the ability to peer around these struts.

 

[Associat0r]

I'd like to think that FD isn't aiming to "achieve at least the same level of graphical quality upon release", but rather lead the market, albeit make choices about what it wants to present, so maybe going down a different route to X-rebirth's busy space cities.

ED is already leading the market for games wrt to the realistic portrayal of space itself.
A seamless realistically scaled galaxy and star systems with proper orbits and planet rotation.

I also expect ED to look a lot more polished and consistent out of the box across the board than the other games, which is way more important than just adding some high-fidelity here and there while blatantly messing it up somewhere else.

(b) I vastly prefer FD's style of cockpit (why did Mike say E: D's will be similar? - E: D's looks MUCH better to me).

You only saw one ED cockpit from the Sidewinder, some other ones will probably be more similair to XRs

 

[Associat0r]

I'm a little concerned about the announcement that the cockpit view is mandatory. This means that not all the pixels on my telly are going to be used to display information. The struts might shiggle a little to convey the effect of G-Force, but then they'll settle back down to the job of obstructing my view.

This could make head tracking much more popular for this game. People are going to want to have the ability to peer around these struts.

Like I said before this could be somewhat solved with a smaller FOV, so your view into the world could be matched exactly to your monitor size and distance of your eyes from the screen, but then could lead to a too restricted viewing area into the world.

 

[matthewdbenson]

You only saw one ED cockpit from the Sidewinder, some other ones will probably be more similair to XRs

Good point - I'd be fine with having some ships I like to fly, and some that I don't like as much ...

 

[SuperG]

lol

Yes well, I hear you completely. You know, all space games after Elite 1 played off it in some way or other, yet none ever came close. The problem with these X games is they didn't have a designer or set of designers whom were heavily influenced by actually science and physics, the Elite series of games did (David).

Your so wrong with your generalisation of dev's. DB choose to follow a more physicS correct game mechanic. While ohter Could even be up to proffessor in physics follows gamer phych over ruled focus, to go more abstract and focus on wat most gamers like. You forget that most games focus on larger target audience then some few fundamentalist wich is a niche in a niche. With your asumsion Nintendo studios are amatures. But they are masters in gameplay. There are even some 2D space game who are due to the 2D very abstract but can be fun. In a game development book I came to know a old game called something like this. Startrek fleet commander III a very abstract but tacical game even not true 3D. It was fun altrue it was by then a old game, to dated for me. But the abstract boarding feature was very cool and fun to play.
X3 at some feature patch got abstract boarding feature to. So that made it for me.
Elite seams to be a game not aimed at a large audience but more a game what DB want to make. Wich to me is more like creative freedom. Very common in the indie scene. Also more concepts aimed at niche markets. Wich is a good thing. Every body get there games to play.

Also keep in mind to implement real physics you need a dev team member with a good physics background. But for abstract one you need one to. Because in the end abstract physics formula is like a realone with a twist. it not always a simplification.
But it doesn't mean other games are less or these devs not capable to do so.
Its a matter if you aim at a few 50K gamers world wide who must have real universe and flight model. Or 250mil gamers who doesn't care and have fun with abstract games.

Now to me this is a great time where different types of space game come.
The more hardcore realism focused. The more fun abstract one and some in between.

Just like the ruling FPS genre.
I play from onrails shooters on the Wii. Sometimes you just want to shoot shoot all day down. To plink or not to plink.
To online fun with friends COD and BF on PS3.
To full featured once BF3 on PC alone.
To the more realism the tactical shooters like OFP2 Red river coop
To the chalanging ARMA series the milsim game offline SP

So having fun in X-rebirth
And being chalanged in E-D
And starcitezen in between.

I might play them all. But would more compete with BF4 online. Clan keeps you of other games.

The latest thing what attract me the most in space games is.
Big ships slow tactical combat and boarding feature

 

[Frank]

...but then could lead to a too restricted viewing area into the world.

You mean like looking through electro-binoculars and suddenly have your image go dark and fuzzy as one of the Sand People obscures your view?

I don't know how much control you'll have over this sort of thing, but it would be nice to bind a key to an FOV toggle.

 

[Associat0r]

You mean like looking through electro-binoculars and suddenly have your image go dark and fuzzy as one of the Sand People obscures your view?

No

I don't know how much control you'll have over this sort of thing, but it would be nice to bind a key to an FOV toggle.

Yes I meant this.

 

[dannysquid]

Personally, although the X trailer is throwing a lot more stuff around the screen than we've (currently) seen I think the actual design and art in ELITE is classier. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that they can turn the designs into a visually impressive reality.

I was a bit worried about the lack of sourced shadows, the low res textures and absence of anti-aliasing in the sample images of sidewinders we were shown, but I'm hoping these are still to come.

 

[SuperG]

You mean like looking through electro-binoculars and suddenly have your image go dark and fuzzy as one of the Sand People obscures your view?

I don't know how much control you'll have over this sort of thing, but it would be nice to bind a key to an FOV toggle.

for PC gaming FOV is like tunnel vision. Even all platforms.in the past with 4:3 ratio even more.

Well if I would make a space game. I would make special differences in FTL capabilities. Also a galacy class. FTL engines are very special so the most powerfull FTL engine are large so take most of the ship. So this galacy starship act like a super carriers. It more like a star ferry. A ship large few KM and a large sensor array. With that a helm pilot locked in with direct brain link. So see trough the sensors. Wich give you a no cockpit/ no bridge view. A 3D view with a 3D offset as wide as the main sensors. Few 100 meters eye offset. And fly trough the stars with this ultra large 3D effect perspective.

It reminds me the star view in discovery channel documentaries. where you move trough the stars like in celestia.

I also are of opinion that piloted fighters make no sense. Firstly with a space armed racing there survival expectations would be very low. Also pocket size FTL is rediculous extreem convinent solution. So fighter are limited to a base of operation. Its not a travel solution. So In XR they go for remote controled fighter drones. Make sense. They are based bound so with in remote reach and fighter remote view would be full screne without cockpit. If destroyed you swich to a other AI controled and get player controled.

My point of Turret gun controle. Anti missile turret are automated. A gunner commander could controle the turrets in a tactical manner. But manuly with a VR headset. Where turrets within fire arc follow his view. This view is also full screen without cocpit as it is a proximity sensor view all around the ship.
Some scifi shows have this. but games do not.

Bridge have many large screens and are deep into a re-enforced bunker or save rooms in the ship. It could be a command center and still have also a normal bridge with a out window view.

So to me the kinds of view depends on the type and role of the ship and the technical status of the universe. So all solutions could be there.

The problem is the game view is restricted. Game view is limited to FHD tunnel view. Where in reallife you view are much wider.

So in car race games you use triple multimon solution.
Heli you could see left right trough the front floor and up.
you even could use a bigger multimon setup.
But in a sim game the hud and cockpit is slamed compressed in FHD view.

The optimal way to have optimal realistic view is with oculust rift where you see full cockpit. Without it you would need for full cockpit. 8 monitors. Or more.

Up left ,up right
Left , center , right
Down left ,cockpit , down right

Wenn UHD gaming comes in a FOV of 2x2 FHD would be a tunnel view reduction.

In XR you use fighter remote controled so you die less. And the enemy AI might be decent without restarting the game that much. Also you can still have more big ships but they are remotly commanded.

I wonder what ED does with fighter to big capitalships.

Well if using a TV as a monitor like 42" from upclose 1 meter a FOV adjustment give you less tunnel view.

Occulust rift seams to be the best afordable solution.

 

[matthewdbenson]

Personally, although the X trailer is throwing a lot more stuff around the screen than we've (currently) seen I think the actual design and art in ELITE is classier. We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed that they can turn the designs into a visually impressive reality.

Agreed!

 

[SuperG]

My preference is more realism also the rendering style, but not so strong that I avoid more abstract games or cartonish or cellshaded rendered style.
X-Rebirth is apperently almost a finished game ready for release in the near future. Elite dangerous is in early production fase. A lot is already done so not that early, but a lot has to be done. So far from release the even do not compete with XRb, but Star Citezen might be more closer to ED. End 2014 at least. Starcitezen could do much more with even larger team with there bigger funding. So olso could take much longer, even as the where started developing much earlier then ED.

So ED isn't that relevant for XRb, but everything that comes out this end years holiday season.
Within it genre there isn't much of competition, but more into the future.
Where they might compete with Xrebirth 2.0 to 3.0

 

[Allen Stroud]

Back to the Original Post.

I like the video, game looks pretty. Two personal preference issues for me.

1. Demonstration of gamepad control. This shows (to me) the whole thing is optimised for gamepads. I prefer using a joystick, so I'll be sacrificing some advantages. However, its single player, so it won't matter.

2. Its single player. Always the problem with the X franchise for me.

But, I'll likely buy it. I lost a whole section of my life to X2 and have the whole series to revisit in the next few months.

 

[PacalB]

for PC gaming FOV is like tunnel vision. Even all platforms.in the past with 4:3 ratio even

Occulust rift seams to be the best afordable solution.

Nope, TrackIR 5 will do the job on a large screen just as well. I use it all the time, £140 and you're away. And yes ... E: D needs to cater for this product. *hint hint*

http://youtu.be/9wXx3vMy_AQ

*Huge hint hint .. cough cough .. hint cough cough cough!*

 

[Alien]

I was looking at the Steam page for X Rebirth :

X Rebirth represents a spectacular new beginning for the X series, offering loyal fans and newcomers alike a vast, vivid and extremely detailed universe to explore throughout the game. Varied gameplay elements such as action-packed space combat, detailed trading mechanics and high-speed space exploration with fast travel allow players to experience a truly unique space saga that will keep them hooked for dozens of hours.

"dozens of hours" ???? seriously?

If that is accurate, then that is the most disappointing thing I've read about an Egosft X series game. And this blurb will have been written by their PR deptartment and OK'd by Bernd.

"Dozens of hours" ?

I am sorry to any X series fans, but the more I hear / read / see about this game, the more I facepalm. This series died once they announced X3TC was the end of a storyline.

 

[Fromhell]

If you think the graphics on this look better than the graphics you posted on your sneek peek a while back you should seriously get your eyes tested, they look cartoony. You shouldn't underestimate yourself if you do think these are better than Elite Dangerous then I for one from what i've seen so far respectfully disagree

very true.
Cartoony/stylized look is unbearable.

"Stylized is aging well", haha... I've read this a hundred times, from the SWTOR devs too, from WoW fanboys and so on. I wonder who invented that scam.

I can tell you WoW, SWTOR and many other stylized cartoony games looked like crap on release and will still look like crap in ten years, "aging" is really not the problem here.

I can still play Half Life 2 without the mods and it looks great. I can still play Age of Conan from 2008 and it's the best looking non-stylized MMO around.
Cartoony graphics need to die in a fire.

If X-Rebirth has no graphics settings to get rid of this look, I'll save my money.