Realizing the Elite Dangerous is an MMO (whether you like it or not)

[Reithan]

Typically, the threshold for concurrency to be considered "massively" has to be somewhere between 101 and over 1000 players, in the same area, concurrently. Anything less is in the realm of FPS/RTS/Co-op games hosted adhoc on anyones computer, anywhere.

Of course, over the years, getting more than 200 humanoid models (player or NPC) in the same visual field has proven challenging. The best I've seen is Warhammer Online, with 100 vs. 100 in city battles. They tried 200 vs. 200, but the servers couldn't handle the load. The clients rendered it fine, but the servers couldn't handle it.
In other games, teleport storms, selective rendering, distance culling, auto-ghosting, quality-by-distance.. a bunch of techniques have been used to try to work around the fundamental problem of handling so many network + rendering tasks. Typically, most games now just spawn new shared instances when more than a threshold is reached, because no-one wants to solve the root problem elegantly.

Planetside2 handles larger battles fairly well, there's a little latency wonkiness, but usually not too bad, much better than when it released.
Lineage2 also had I think up to 500v500 castle raids, though, again, those were 'roll dice behind the scenes' combat mechanics.

So, to say that more than 32 players in an instance of ED is impossible is just not true. Maybe 'not possible given design/server constraints that FD is working with' is accurate, or maybe it's not. Maybe they're just not interested in larger battles.

After playing EVE Online, I can say, without a doubt, those huge multiple hundred (or thousand) ship & drone fleet engagements are pretty fun the first couple times, just for novelties sake...but after that, they're horridly boring. Anyone targetted in full by the fleet in anything less than the largest ships is irrevokably doomed. They're just slugfest battles of attrition which usually have huge logistical lead-in times while fleets organize, and then a ton of visual clutter for an hour or so while a hundred ships gets alpha-striked into oblivion until one side gives up...

I'd like the option to have larger battles and more dynamic player interaction in Elite...but I'm fine with never having the huge multi-hundred player battles.

 

[olesk]

Planetside2 handles larger battles fairly well, there's a little latency wonkiness, but usually not too bad, much better than when it released.
Lineage2 also had I think up to 500v500 castle raids, though, again, those were 'roll dice behind the scenes' combat mechanics.

So, to say that more than 32 players in an instance of ED is impossible is just not true. Maybe 'not possible given design/server constraints that FD is working with' is accurate, or maybe it's not. Maybe they're just not interested in larger battles.

After playing EVE Online, I can say, without a doubt, those huge multiple hundred (or thousand) ship & drone fleet engagements are pretty fun the first couple times, just for novelties sake...but after that, they're horridly boring. Anyone targetted in full by the fleet in anything less than the largest ships is irrevokably doomed. They're just slugfest battles of attrition which usually have huge logistical lead-in times while fleets organize, and then a ton of visual clutter for an hour or so while a hundred ships gets alpha-striked into oblivion until one side gives up...

I'd like the option to have larger battles and more dynamic player interaction in Elite...but I'm fine with never having the huge multi-hundred player battles.

I agree - ED is fundamentally a different game. But what I would like to see is something akin to what CmdrBream suggested, where 5-6 players take on a pirate station / base in order to be able to mine the minerals there for example, or as part of a quest to pacify the pirates. I don't think we need 50+ships in the same instance. I do high intensity conflict zone (community goal) right now, and with 20+ NPC allies, is gets rather chaotic, to say the least - friendly fire abound! Add another 30 PC ships to that, and it's pure chaos!

 

[jprelph]

• The focus on VR/Hotas is skewing all development effort, and badly.
• They have no interest in learning from history, due to the first point.
  

I disagree with your list in its entirety but these two points seem particularly specious. Elite was always a game that involved flying a spaceship as a primary mechanic. A HOTAS setup is always going to be better for the flight mechanic chosen. Complaining that HOTAS is having an effect on gameplay is like complaining that Word is badly designed as it's so based around a keyboard for input. Yes it's not the only way to play, but it was always going to be a primary choice.

The second comment is based around the tired, repeated tautology that Elite isn't a modern game because it doesn't have [x] from another game that is modern. I'm pretty sick of this narrow minded view that a game has to have the same list of features as other games to be [modern/successful]. That's exactly why there are so many boring identikit games on the market these days.

Obviously you're welcome to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

 

[Ideas Man]

Bit by bit this game is turning into an MMO we can all recognise, it's already begun with quest markers, friends, guilds etc and it'll continue down this road hopefully as FD leave all the turbonerds in the dust after grabbing their cash by promising 'old Elite' (lol) to fund the game, they are now quite rightly looking towards modern gamers to sustain the game going forward.

It's good that looking backwards at long gone past glories seems to be a thing of the past at last, it is about time.

 

[Roybe]

The original Guildwars had instances that only had a maximum of about 30, yet was an mmo.

The developers of that game always claimed it was a Co-op RPG, not an MMO.

As to what can be learned from MMO's, basically grouping, communications, and content. Content, is tricky because this game is not a theme park, but there still needs to be compelling reason to 'do stuff'. The various factions work, however, the personal investment in them is marginal at best currently. There is no real choice, belong to all of them or none of them and it really doesn't matter. Give the players a reason to fight for the faction of their choice...make that choice mean something by limiting their participation in the other factions, in some manner. If you are an Alliance member who wants to get into the Federation, then you have to run Federation missions against the Alliance, until you are unfriendly with the Alliance. Something along those lines.

The background simulation is supposed to provide the foundation that makes group content interesting and worthwhile, and will eventually do so, when it finally works and is bug free. Working within a system to do something with it is rewarding, and can create interesting activities for all roles. It just needs to work as intended, be less opaque to the player base, and not require dev intervention to either babysit the system to watch for incongruities or mushrooming problems...again this will occur over time.

 

[Ancipital]

Can we drop this now and just see if there is something to be learned from other MMOs? Let's keep it constructive (and sorry AGAIN for focusing on whether or not it is an MMO in the OP)

Why would we want to blandly go along with such a silly assertion, just so you can attempt to build sandcastles out of almost pure irrelevance (and maybe trace amounts of sand)? You might as well claim that it's the lost sequel to Horace And The Spiders; it will make as much sense.

No, sorry, that's not how it works. While we are at it, should we also "drop" the awkward insistence that black is not white?

Having played a lot of Elite, and many MMOs, sometimes to health-endangering levels, I'd love some MMO in my Elite, or vice versa. However, this most certainly does not offer anything remotely like that. Your premise is flawed.

 

[hanks01]

Next up in "Circuitous conversations that don't go anywhere" we'll be discussing whether Zelda is an RPG and whether Fallout 3 is an FPS. Prepare for joy as we all madly scrabble to put games in comfortable little boxes called genre and then debate semantics.

Anyway, on to the discussion at hand, content for Anacondas/ big ships.

Firstly it surprises me how many Anaconda players are only ranked as Novices yet they bought their Anaconda to be the big fish in the combat pond. Now everyone has different motivations for what they do, so I'm not going to put all of those players in to one basket. However, by (assumedly) grinding trade routes to race to the supposed "end-game" craft they've missed out on the experiences of flying all the other ships. Flying an Eagle into a combat zone or bounty hunting is a very different experience from taking an Asp in, or Cobra or Viper. Same as exploring in an Adder feels much more vulnerable and risky than an Asp.

So for all those who went through the various sized trade ships straight to the Anaconda, you've missed out on all the other ships, not least of which the feedback loop of upgrading them over time, trying out new loadouts etc... It's almost like grinding to level 85 in Skyrim before doing anything and then complaining that all the dragons are too easy.

I'm not saying I don't want more content or anything like that but scurrying to appease the Anaconda players (some of whom may only have played the game for so long because of their perceived end-game goal) seems almost pointless, because they're just going to get bored of that new content and wish they had a bigger ship to grind towards.

Go hop in an Eagle, try and take out a Federation Capital ship, see if that extends your end game.

Edit: As an addendum, a developer can learn from many genres of games, seeing a good idea and whether it may add to your game in a positive way is not a bad thing, Doesn't have to just be MMOs though.

 

[olesk]

Give the players a reason to fight for the faction of their choice...make that choice mean something by limiting their participation in the other factions, in some manner. If you are an Alliance member who wants to get into the Federation, then you have to run Federation missions against the Alliance, until you are unfriendly with the Alliance. Something along those lines.

This one I think is a very good point. I find it mildly amusing that I have high naval ranks and is allied in both factions. They are not at war (yet), but it still seems a bit silly. To me it's linked to FD's general approach that everyone can by anything at the same time. I wouldn't mind some tough choices as well. Would make things more interesting I think. I would like the lore to be more important to my decisions on where to go and what to do. Right now that only applies to isolated Galnet events and community goals.

 

[starjump]

Well said OP. I know what you are saying. After getting the biggest ship, being allied and have a high rank plus tons of money in the bank you simply want something to do at that "level". I guess for now one thing would be to explore or do the community goal. Other than that there might not be much else currently. So yeah, of course ED would do well with some high level content like maybe missions that isnt about money but more about triggering events perhaps. Some type of "end game" missions that are bigger than just making money or gaining rep/rank - since you already have tons of those. And its not a matter of "you rushed there, shame on you". Many people are/is getting there so of course ED would be great if it had something extra for those that get there.
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We will all be there at some point and i certainly dont want the game to "end" there as i want to continue playing ED long after i have full rank, top ship and tons of money in the bank. And im someone who really takes my time btw, but i certainly count on FD to bring something to do when i hit that point of not needing any more cash, and having full rank and the top ships in my hangar. At least for myself i wont continue to collect cash when i have more than i can spend. That would be like running a level over and over and over. Youve seen it all, you fought every enemy, you read the story and now you do it over and over again. That wouldnt be the idea of fun for me personally. And even if there were higher level stuff to do, those that dont want to do it doesnt have to. They can continue trading forever. That mechanic is already there so nothing lost, only gained to have more things to do when you are "able" to do so (bigger ship, higher rank, access to more restricted systems etc).
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For now im glad i didnt go full force trading. I have a long way to go still before i have an Anaconda or high rank. Im in no rush. We will see what will come. Either they do add something or they dont. I shall enjoy my way to the top and then make a judgement when im there. All i know is that i dont think i would enjoy keep trading or shoot wanteds when i have gone through all ships and have the highest rank. There need to be something extra to play for. Then again, lots of people like to play ETS2 for a long time. I loved it until i had garages everywhere and drivers. Since there were no skill added like get/drop off areas with obstacles (containers etc) so i got to use driving skill when picking up/dropping off trailers i got tired of it, but its clearly really popular still. Maybe thats why i always liked combat sims more than the typical working sims (farming sim, flight sim w/o combat, hauling sims). I need something to do that take a bit of skill and is challenging than just go back and forth. And preferably there need to be something im doing the skill based stuff for. Like a combat sim i do missions and try to complete them. The mission itself is the carrot, and the missions are hard and take time to do. Love that stuff. And i think ED would do well with high level missions for those with big ships and high ranks. Missions that are pieces who slowly activates larger events. There should of course like now also be events for everyone, but higher tier missions/events would be neato. Imo of course.
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Sorry for lots of text. In short, yes i agree with OP that there should be higher tier things to do. I mean, why not?

 

[Snakebite]

Elite Dangerous is an MMO. I know, a lot of people do not like that idea, but it is a Massively Multiplayer Online game whether we pretend it isn't or not (even if you play Solo you cannot escape most aspects of it). The challenges, and to be honest, some of the mistakes made, have been classical of MMOs (faction issues, mission troubles, no "high level" content etc). I am not entirely convinced that FD sees ED as an MMO, and therefore reinvents the wheel unnecessarily. I hope at least a couple of designers on the FD team have MMO experience, or I fear we will struggle with mission and faction issues for longer than necessary.


To take a classical example of the last (no high level content): some of the most enthusiastic players are now "rich". They have Anacondas and Pythons (me and my friends all have Anacondas), but there is no content yet for any player with Cr100m or more in total assets. With no content I meant that there are no missions that are worth the fuel expense and no NPC targets that are neither challenging nor offer rewards worth the time. The only thing we can do is trade or explore, but it starts getting rather repetitive (anyone having traded their way to an Anaconda has seen everything there is to see with regards to trading a long time ago, for example).


This matters, because the most enthusiastic players are very valuable to any MMO, and to have no content for them is risky for ED and FD. I'm sure FD will get around to this eventually, and I for one make no threats of leaving. I'm just a bit concerned that FD seems surprised that this happens. If you had a team with people experienced with MMOs, they could have told you that from the start. It is the kind of issue that early MMOs used to suffer from, but fortunately not so much anymore, as developers have caught on to the issue. Keeping your most enthusiastic players happy is very good for business, as they are vocal supporters and great advertising for the game.


The same goes for creating that sense of loyalty to a faction, or emotional attachment to missions or places. Currently everything is very cold and impersonal. Even the old Elite games had talking heads or something that made interacting with faction a or station x feel different from faction b or station y. Having a massively huge galaxy is cool. Having a massively huge galaxy that makes you feel that you are the only living being in it feels a bit depressing after a while. I don't think it takes all that much to alleviate some of these issues, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but unless the game is treated by FD as the MMO it is, there is a risk of repeating a lot of the mistakes in early MMOs that ought to be extinct. I personally think ED is awesomeness waiting to happen, and naively optimistic that I am, I would love to hear some thoughts from the devs. Or given that the chances of that being slim considering they are busy people, what do you think? I'd especially love to hear from anyone with experience from other MMOs - do you see things that could easily be transferred to ED from other MMOs to make ED better or fix current issues?



UPDATE: The point about this post was to encourage looking at ED as an MMO to see what could be learned from that, in order to improve the game. It did however turn into a bit of a "no it isn't!"/"yes it is too!" argument, which is entirely my fault - sorry! But let's not get hung up on that, but rather ask what we can learn from MMOs, no matter how we categorize ED. I believe other games have done great work, and maybe, just maybe, some of that could be applied to ED as well.

I agree with this very much especially the cold and impersonal bit, btw here is a like to some of those talking heads you are referring to.

[video=youtube;mVn40UriLf8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVn40UriLf8&list=PL1IPnWNhggJzjTvSBXrsM3djfbxmkU0an[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1IPnWNhggJzjTvSBXrsM3djfbxmkU0an[/video]

They may have been rather amateurish but they added a lot to the game. Seeing that guy in the Imperial uniform for example made you 'feel' that you were at an Imperial station.

 

[olesk]

Honest question: what motivates you to shoot straight for that Anaconda by means on mundane trade grinding, knowing all the while what's available in the game. Is it simply bragging rights? (Nothing to scoff at, I can perfectly understand bragging rights)

My advice for those who went all out for the Conda's is: park it. Get in a space dingy and do all those things you missed out on.

I'm always amazed people think that's what happens. My combat ranking is Expert, my explorer is Scout and my trade is Entrepreneur. Why would you think anyone "shoot straight for the Anaconda"? None of my friends did, and I certainly did not. We did trade a lot yes, but we traded smart, using tools and each other. I also had a boring x-mas which made me trade grind a bit, but that's it.

Don't be so quick to assume, it's makes an ass.. etc.

 

[Dannyc]

Problem with this sort of thinking is that if you only balance for those top 0.1% of players who rush the game you end up creating an endless grind for the normal people - its too early yet, way to early.

 

[olesk]

Problem with this sort of thinking is that if you only balance for those top 0.1% of players who rush the game you end up creating an endless grind for the normal people - its too early yet, way to early.

Why is adding missions for Pythons and Anacondas somehow making the game worse for you?

 

[olesk]

Still doesn't answer my question. You looked around saw what's what. And must have noticed there aren't any specifical tasks for high end ships.

Back to my question: what motivated you to trade that much to get a ship you must have realised there isn't any high end content as you called it? Is it, as I assumed, a friendly race between friends?

And to finish your quote "you and me". My point was the motivation for hours upon hours of trading. A conda aint cheap. Takes quite a bit of grind. Smart trading or not.

Honestly, I didn't think I would ever get to Anaconda. I never thought I would get to Type-9 either. I underestimated the logarithmic function of earnings in ED. Once you get to Type-9 and move 500 tons each trade run, Anaconda is not so expensive anymore. Still, I didn't think about Anaconda until I had way more than I needed. I stuck with my Type-9 for trading, and Viper for combat. But I've owned every ship in the game except the Orca and Imp Dropship, as I moved up through the ships.

For every ship there was things to do, but this stopped being trued when coming to Python, where there is little or no content except PvP. So I did PvP until I tired of it and could afford a Type-9. In the end I bought the Anaconda because it is the best trading ship in the game - smaller cargo than the Type-9 but faster and better jump range.

But you see, I don't feel I should need to justify my play style really. You have yours, I have mine. The Anaconda is a ship made by FD for ED. And I'm pretty sure FD doesn't want to leave things the way they are, as more and more players get to this ship level. What I tried (and largely failed, hence "you and me" ) to do with this thread was to say: what can we suggest in way of improvements for ED, if we look at it (rightly or wrongly) as an MMO and draw on the community's experience.

I think there should be content for all ships, including the Python, Dropship, Anaconda you name it. But rather than just rant about it, my idea was (perhaps naively) to try to get people to suggest things that would make ED more fun. For everyone from Sidewinder to Anaconda. That's it and that's all.

 

[Jerryt87]

Why not make a private elite PVP group, and blow each other up? Seems like that would give you the content you want.

 

[olesk]

...
But I think you don't have to worry about content for the larger ships coming up. The issue is capacity at the moment. At the moment the bulk of the players are in Asp or below. Not dependent on enthusiasm but rather on playing style. FD has limited resources and will try to cater to the largest group. This will gradually move up, so the demographic they are aiming for will move in your direction eventually. Might take a while, since they seem to have their hands rather full with balancing, fixing and streamlining the current content.

I hope and think you're right on that one. Still, I'd love to hear suggestions for new cool stuff. I know you got something!

edit: Complete shot in the dark, but since you do have those fancy ships, maybe a good idea to head out to a Nebula or some other sweet background and start posing.
Inspiration from: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95490&page=21&p=1796781&viewfull=1#post1796781
And now I will anticipate a Simpson done it moment where you show off you and your friends posing in front of nebula, neutron stars, supernovas and the Thargoid home base :/

Actually, the Thargoids told me that if I ever did that again they would ... do something disturbing to and with my entrails

Fun fact: last weekend I got pretty drunk dressed up as Ziggy - no kidding!

 

[hanks01]

I'm always amazed people think that's what happens. My combat ranking is Expert, my explorer is Scout and my trade is Entrepreneur. Why would you think anyone "shoot straight for the Anaconda"? None of my friends did, and I certainly did not. We did trade a lot yes, but we traded smart, using tools and each other. I also had a boring x-mas which made me trade grind a bit, but that's it.

Don't be so quick to assume, it's makes an ass.. etc.

This kind of makes a point I made in another thread. As you used trade tools you essentially cut yourself off from part of the experience of self-discovery of good trade routes which I assume means you were trading large amounts of profit per ton on the best possible routes, rather than picking an area of space that appealed to you and finding routes around there.

Whilst some people love trading and some hate it, part of the fun is sourcing your own route rather than picking the ones that make crazy money really quickly.

 

[olesk]

Even posted some off them in the past. Weren't any good though. One meant getting out of hippie space 25 km from stations.

I'll see if I can come up with something more Big Ship like.

Are you from the southern parts of the Netherlands by any chance?

Sorry no, Norwegian living in Switzerland

This kind of makes a point I made in another thread. As you used trade tools you essentially cut yourself off from part of the experience of self-discovery of good trade routes which I assume means you were trading large amounts of profit per ton on the best possible routes, rather than picking an area of space that appealed to you and finding routes around there.

Whilst some people love trading and some hate it, part of the fun is sourcing your own route rather than picking the ones that make crazy money really quickly.

Look - if that's what you like to do great for you (really!). However, I used to work in asset management, and let me tell you, *real* (as in real life) traders will use any and all tools to get ahead. Trading using tools is trading like real trader - take my word for it. And I'm not masochistic enough to spend as much time as I have trading unless I liked it. Not all the time, not every day, but overall, there's something oddly zen about it to me. Why should I have to subscribe to your vision of trading? Or you to mine? To each his own I say. In my experience, tools get you 25% of the way, helpful friends get you another 25% and the rest is all you. My 2cr anyways

But since we're on the topic of trading, and the thread is about ideas for improvement to make it more fun for everyone, big and small, do you have any suggestions on what would, to your mind, make it more interesting?

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I agree with this very much especially the cold and impersonal bit, btw here is a like to some of those talking heads you are referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVn40UriLf8&list=PL1IPnWNhggJzjTvSBXrsM3djfbxmkU0an

[video]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1IPnWNhggJzjTvSBXrsM3djfbxmkU0an[/url]

They may have been rather amateurish but they added a lot to the game. Seeing that guy in the Imperial uniform for example made you 'feel' that you were at an Imperial station.

That is awesome!

 

[AtheosisX]

I don't even play online so this is news to me...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

This kind of makes a point I made in another thread. As you used trade tools you essentially cut yourself off from part of the experience of self-discovery of good trade routes which I assume means you were trading large amounts of profit per ton on the best possible routes, rather than picking an area of space that appealed to you and finding routes around there.

Whilst some people love trading and some hate it, part of the fun is sourcing your own route rather than picking the ones that make crazy money really quickly.

And that's the crux of the game. People are used to rush trough games. If they don't massage certain pleasure points in quite short time, it is all useless. It seems quite a lot complains about atmosphere of the game come from completionists...