Realizing the Elite Dangerous is an MMO (whether you like it or not)

Good trade routes in a Type-9 or Anaconda nets you over 4m per hour. We don't play that much, we just try to play smart with the time we have. And there are a lot of Type-9s and Anacondas around now.

Therein lies my point - good trading profit comes with a T9 at what? CR76m out of the yard and CR146m for an Anaconda. Without the 24x7 or lux exploits, amassing that kind of money for a big ship is a long grind for many I suspect, like me who plays maybe 6 hours a week if I am lucky (mixing gameplay). Sorry, I know this is not the main point of your post, but not all of us can sit in our Anacondas, untouchable and bored. Maybe the seeds of a revolution of the proletariat :)
 
if ED is MMO, is a lame MMO. If you like the game, stop describing it as MMO, you're not helping. Give it 1 year, then call it again a MMO, maybe it will worth the title.
 
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I agree with most of what you say, but I feel I should add that me and my two friends playing are not "hardcore gamers" with no life :)

We're all married, two of us with kids, and we don't spend our whole weekends playing. But we've been trading quite a bit an hour or two most evenings, working together to find the best trade routes (and we all missed the rares rush I'm afraid). Good trade routes in a Type-9 or Anaconda nets you over 4m per hour. We don't play that much, we just try to play smart with the time we have. And there are a lot of Type-9s and Anacondas around now.

Playing smart is making fastest money possible? I think you might be wrong on this.

That's why I love this game, it takes alternative routes in its core game.
 
Therein lies my point - good trading profit comes with a T9 at what? CR76m out of the yard and CR146m for an Anaconda. Without the 24x7 or lux exploits, amassing that kind of money for a big ship is a long grind for many I suspect, like me who plays maybe 6 hours a week if I am lucky (mixing gameplay). Sorry, I know this is not the main point of your post, but not all of us can sit in our Anacondas, untouchable and bored. Maybe the seeds of a revolution of the proletariat :)

:D that actually made me laugh - I've been doing some missions for a communist faction lately!

Still, even with six hours a day, if you keep at it, will put you in the range of a Type-9 eventually if you should wish it. It's sometimes easy to forget that it's an exponential function more than a linear one, and in my experience, being a capitalist pig by nature, greed acts as a catalyst once the ship size increases. But I probably shouldn't say anything more if I want the benefit of a blindfold when the revolution comes ;)
 
Elite Dangerous is an MMO.
No it isn't. It's barely an online game, let alone an MMO. Having played a lot in open, I can safely say it's indistinguishable from solo mode unless you happen to hang around certain systems or are of the mindset that gets excited by the rare hollow rectangles that show up. I've gone for whole evenings in populated space without seeing a single player in open.

Other than attacking other players, there are no meaningful forms of multiplayer interaction available. There are no activities that require the presence of other players, either in a co-operative or competitive sense.

If ED is an MMO then staring out of the window watching the odd car go down a quiet cul-de-sac counts as a wild night on the town.
 
Playing smart is making fastest money possible? I think you might be wrong on this.

That's why I love this game, it takes alternative routes in its core game.

Agreed - we wanted to make money to buy ships and equipment to explore and try every aspect of the game. I'm not saying this is the "right" way to play, in my mind any way (as long as you don't grief other players) is as valid as any other. But trading will eventually make you money, there's no way around it ;)
 
No it isn't. It's barely an online game, let alone an MMO. Having played a lot in open, I can safely say it's indistinguishable from solo mode unless you happen to hang around certain systems or are of the mindset that gets excited by the rare hollow rectangles that show up. I've gone for whole evenings in populated space without seeing a single player in open.

Other than attacking other players, there are no meaningful forms of multiplayer interaction available. There are no activities that require the presence of other players, either in a co-operative or competitive sense.

If ED is an MMO then staring out of the window watching the odd car go down a quiet cul-de-sac counts as a wild night on the town.

Can we drop this now and just see if there is something to be learned from other MMOs? Let's keep it constructive (and sorry AGAIN for focusing on whether or not it is an MMO in the OP)
 
There have been several 'psuedo MMOs' over the years, Guild Wars being the most visible. Like Elite, they both 'host' a huge number of players, who are all 'on the same server' and 'playing together' and can actually affect each other through pricing, seeing each other infrequently and social stuff. However, like Guild Wars, actual play instances are more limited to what would be considered 'normal' multiplayer. It's very hard to say Elite is an MMO, and it's equally hard to say it isn't at all. Guild Wars often faced the same identity crisis.

I WOULD say this though, OP is entirely correct that Elite (as GW did) faces many challenges identical to those that MMOs face...and I would continue that it also faces many challenges that standard multiplayer games face, as it's sort of a hybrid of the two.

So, can FD devs learrn something from MMO development that would benefit ED? Sure! Can they just take all common MMO knowledge and apply it 1:1 into ED? Not even slightly.
 
But most haven't scratched the surface of Exploring, Bounty Hunting and Pirating.

What kind of strange mindtwist makes it seem to people that if they have lots of credits they have "finished" the game. Many I see posting stating that haven't even started.

You're missing the (or at least my) point. I'm not saying that I'm "finished". I'm just asking that content scales up, so that we all don't have to stay in Cobras and ASPs. Have you tried pirating in a Python or Anaconda and scooping up 400 floating containers? I have, and I can tell, it does not work. No missions that offer danger or reward. These are the issues. I want the game to continue. Right now it stops.

Sure, exploring is still available, and one can do bounty hunting. But how difficult would it be to scale missions up so that players with bigger ships could continue playing? My guess is not so much.
 
Elite Dangerous is an MMO. ...
I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Neverwinter Nights (since 2002, 12+ years ago) permits 100 players to play on a player hosted server, concurrently. It is not considered an MMO, nor should it be.

Elite : Dangerous doesn't even permit 32 players (claimed, never demonstrated, no screenshots of 32 CMDR ships together) to play on a player hosted server, concurrently. How can it be considered an MMO? Because a bunch of single player instances are generated by a server? That's not multiplayer-online, that's single-player online.

Typically, the threshold for concurrency to be considered "massively" has to be somewhere between 101 and over 1000 players, in the same area, concurrently. Anything less is in the realm of FPS/RTS/Co-op games hosted adhoc on anyones computer, anywhere.

Of course, over the years, getting more than 200 humanoid models (player or NPC) in the same visual field has proven challenging. The best I've seen is Warhammer Online, with 100 vs. 100 in city battles. They tried 200 vs. 200, but the servers couldn't handle the load. The clients rendered it fine, but the servers couldn't handle it.
In other games, teleport storms, selective rendering, distance culling, auto-ghosting, quality-by-distance.. a bunch of techniques have been used to try to work around the fundamental problem of handling so many network + rendering tasks. Typically, most games now just spawn new shared instances when more than a threshold is reached, because no-one wants to solve the root problem elegantly.

Point is, personally, I see no evidence of any kind that Elite : Dangerous, at the networking layer, has anything better than Neverwinter Nights does (yes, you can still play it, today, with 100 friends, if you want). No-one has ever claimed NWN was an MMO, so.. there it is.
 
I know it's radical and no-one's though of it before, but why don't we import some end game raids and bosses from WoW and some player controlled stuff from EVE? We could then have some stuff for all of those Anaconda drivers to do whilst they wait for us to level up to 100.

There needs to be some player controlled stations for my guild to live in, between raids so we can equip our new l33t drops on our blinged out Anacondas.

Also, pets. I need some plushy to sit in the co-pilots seat of my Adder when I'm stooging around the galaxy. So, pets, for sure.

Be lucky FD manages one big update a month. It is difficult to develop MMO with 3-4 person team and game, that has no long term financial model and does not have staff to develop paid DLCs in timely fashion.
Just look at zero communication about upcoming changes or additions. They don't have a clue yet.
1.2 is month away, yet we know only most general info about it. This is not how you do marketing, this is how you run a garage company.
 
Just to kill the "ED is not a MMO", from Wikipedia,

On MMOs in general:
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously.

Elite can't do this.

This is surreal to me anyone can be this dense, it really is.
 
Elite Dangerous is an MMO. I know, a lot of people do not like that idea, but it is a Massively Multiplayer Online game whether we pretend it isn't or not (even if you play Solo you cannot escape most aspects of it). The challenges, and to be honest, some of the mistakes made, have been classical of MMOs (faction issues, mission troubles, no "high level" content etc). I am not entirely convinced that FD sees ED as an MMO, and therefore reinvents the wheel unnecessarily. I hope at least a couple of designers on the FD team have MMO experience, or I fear we will struggle with mission and faction issues for longer than necessary.


To take a classical example of the last (no high level content): some of the most enthusiastic players are now "rich". They have Anacondas and Pythons (me and my friends all have Anacondas), but there is no content yet for any player with Cr100m or more in total assets. With no content I meant that there are no missions that are worth the fuel expense and no NPC targets that are neither challenging nor offer rewards worth the time. The only thing we can do is trade or explore, but it starts getting rather repetitive (anyone having traded their way to an Anaconda has seen everything there is to see with regards to trading a long time ago, for example).


This matters, because the most enthusiastic players are very valuable to any MMO, and to have no content for them is risky for ED and FD. I'm sure FD will get around to this eventually, and I for one make no threats of leaving. I'm just a bit concerned that FD seems surprised that this happens. If you had a team with people experienced with MMOs, they could have told you that from the start. It is the kind of issue that early MMOs used to suffer from, but fortunately not so much anymore, as developers have caught on to the issue. Keeping your most enthusiastic players happy is very good for business, as they are vocal supporters and great advertising for the game.


The same goes for creating that sense of loyalty to a faction, or emotional attachment to missions or places. Currently everything is very cold and impersonal. Even the old Elite games had talking heads or something that made interacting with faction a or station x feel different from faction b or station y. Having a massively huge galaxy is cool. Having a massively huge galaxy that makes you feel that you are the only living being in it feels a bit depressing after a while. I don't think it takes all that much to alleviate some of these issues, and I don't pretend to have all the answers, but unless the game is treated by FD as the MMO it is, there is a risk of repeating a lot of the mistakes in early MMOs that ought to be extinct. I personally think ED is awesomeness waiting to happen, and naively optimistic that I am, I would love to hear some thoughts from the devs. Or given that the chances of that being slim considering they are busy people, what do you think? I'd especially love to hear from anyone with experience from other MMOs - do you see things that could easily be transferred to ED from other MMOs to make ED better or fix current issues?


I disagree. It's a single player game with a limited, somewhat broken multiplayer component.

ED is far more comparable to Diablo 1 than World of Warcraft.
 
I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

......

, so.. there it is.

Alright! Now let's all agree that ED either is an MMO or it is not an MMO. Full stop.


With that out of the way, let's see if there are learnings from MMOs that we can use. Because that was the idea of this thread.

There are many ways to look at ED to further improved a great game. I argue that looking at ED as an MMO (even though it maybe isn't), yields some insights, and was hoping for good ideas.

So far we've discussed:
  1. "High level content" (in ED terminology: "stuff to do for players with big ships"). What can be done to ensure these players have a fun time and that the game doesn't "stop" as content fails to scale
  2. "Lack of lore" (in ED terminology: "I feel very alone/disconnected in the game"). What can be done to make the game feel more alive, stations more "real" and players care even more about factions?
  3. "Repetitive and simple quests" (in ED terminology: "boring missions"). What can be done to make missions feel more relevant, interesting and rewarding beyond the cash/faction reward?

These are just ways of looking at ED through the prism of MMO-style challenges that other games in that genre have solved (or sometimes failed to solve), to see if there are things to be learned. That's all.

And pretty please, again I APOLOGIZE to EVERYONE for starting the "yes it is"/"no it isn't" MMO debate. Let's bury that now and move forward :)

We have a big and vibrant community. No harm in asking people's experiences and input :)
 
OP points out relevant, glaring issues with the state of the game...

Then faces a bunch of ridicule over people blindly ignoring his points and likening him to some WoW fan boy.

Yes this, this right here is some quality discussion.

I bet you're all proud to be defending a game which is legitimately lacking depth of content and has significant balance issues when it comes to different play styles.

Is it a 'massive' multiplayer game? Pff, no! But supposedly the game universe is being shared with all the players, even if the instances arent. So in a sense, yes you are still playing with people. Dismissing his thoughts just because of some silly semantics is just that, silly.
 
... Let's bury that now and move forward :) ...
Unfortunately, that's likely going to require a new thread.
And any thread that attempts to replicate the DDA/DDF discussions will be pointed to the DDA/DDF threads.
Of which precious few ideas therein are even being considered for implementation.

A few cold hard personal observations, from Beta onward, regarding FDEV and Elite : Dangerous:
  • They don't care what the community thinks or wants. They're making the game they want.
  • The focus on VR/Hotas is skewing all development effort, and badly.
  • They have no interest in learning from history, due to the first point.
  • When given the choice, punitive mechanics are preferred over rewarding mechanics, at FDEV.
  • Fun and challenge are tertiary to punishment and tedium, by design.
  • Bugs are a tertiary priority, for development tasks, after punitive mechanics and frustrating gameplay.


Some of those overlap, but that's what I've seen, so far.
This is "old school" game design. It's so much lost potential, I die a little inside every time I start the game, and that's infrequently, these days.
 
Can we drop this now and just see if there is something to be learned from other MMOs? Let's keep it constructive (and sorry AGAIN for focusing on whether or not it is an MMO in the OP)
Sure.

In terms of what can be learned, I think a lot of it depends on what aspects of MMOness are deemed as desirable really. My personal opinion of what makes a worthwhile MMO is (leaving aside obvious stuff like "We need to be able to chat", "We need to be able to trade/give stuff", and "We need to be able to group")...

There's got to be a reason to group in the sense that there have got to be tasks that are sufficiently complex or difficult to make having other players around a necessity. If everything can be accomplished solo, or by solo players performing a common task without the need to co-ordinate (see "Community Goals" for oxymoronic details), then the presence of other players becomes pretty meaningless.

PvP is a must, as is a stick n' carrot method of making attacking same or higher strength players very attractive, and merely jobbing lowbies profoundly unattractive. There should also be areas that are as good as safe (or at least so dangerous for anyone initiating combat as to make it straight up suicide), and the mechanism for enforcing this can be as gamey as it likes. Likewise, areas where absolutely anything goes are obligatory.

The only two MMOs I've spent a decent amount of time in (as opposed to merely played for a bit) are Eve and WoW, and both did a pretty decent job on both counts. WoW veered a bit too much towards the forced co-operation side of things in the endgame, but I'd say both hit a reasonable balance of functionality.

ED's issues in the multiplayer stakes are, well, very numerous indeed.

For starters, all items are commodity items, and all can be purchased from the environment. Consequently, even if we had the ability to trade with each other there'd be no point in doing so as there'd be no means of making money, only losing money. Until items are available that can only be produced (either by looting or crafting) by players, no meaningful player trade activity can take place even if a system was created to support it.

Furthermore, there are no activities that scream "we need more players!". Even something as mundane as mining in Eve max security space in the early days (haven't played it for years so can't comment now) was designed such as to make it miles easier to accomplish and offer a higher per-player production rate if it was tackled mob handed. There's nothing that comes even close to resembling the WoW highly structured forced co-operation, and whilst admittedly that's harder to pull off in a space sim, the current mechanics of ED are such that not only are there no activities that genuinely need more players, but that players only really come in two varieties - those currently flying a trading ship, and those flying something else - and the two varieties can be interchanged either by just docking and getting into another ship, or by a few minutes of retail action. The lack of the need to specialise, either due to financial constraints or due to arbitrary game mechanics, means the best we can hope for within anything that looks like current ED mechanics is a system that needs merely an extra body, not a particular type of body.

If suddenly landed with the task of sorting it out, and assuming the underlying architecture would take it, I'd at very least* introduce non-commodity loot** plus a means of selling it and swapping it. That provides the building blocks for the whole MMO experience. Inter-player trade becomes viable as there are now things that can't just be bought cheaper from the environment, risk taking (and therefore the ability of the game designers to provide that risk, which don't currently have) changes from a credits per hour calculation to a more goal-based calculation***, and the extra element of danger that could be introduced as a result of making risk taking necessary would allow for a decent "no opportunity cost" reason to group. Said non-commodity loot would also introduce the prospect of generated mission chains that were sufficiently challenging as to require assistance from others - go kill Really Nasty Pirate Gang X, we'll give you some neat stuff... kill a few players aligned to faction X in combat zone Y, have this shiny thing, etc.

Thereafter it all gets pretty easy, but the first step has to be non-commodity loot.

(The next stop would be adding a load more slots to ships to hold module buff type items, thereby diversifying things even more and allowing for much more specialised ships, maybe in the form of "bound to player" ship software upgrades that could be used to create a degree of specialisation we don't currently have. But hey, it's all just conjecture really. Good fun though nonetheless.)


* Assuming obvious stuff like "make chat work" and "let us group" had happened.

** By which I mean any kind of stuff that comes from the environment, not just, say, weapon drops. It could just as easily be ultra-rare minerals that can only be mined either way, way out in deep space or in heavily guarded system (bring some mates to fight off the locals, or you ain't gettin' 'em).

*** As in, the mindset goes from "how do we maximise credits per hour, because ultimately everything is just credits" to "how do we acquire one of those missile launchers... at all".
 
Here's the thing about quests in normal mmorpgs. In those games you get quests from NPCs that usually contain storylines or bits of lore, and from that you get quest chains that develop the storyline even more. However, in ED we get our "quests" from a bulletin board where there is no NPC interaction and next-to-no storyline. How do you make a plain old quest less boring? By putting an interesting storyline with it, but this option (right now) isn't available to ED. If we ever get the ability to walk around space stations this will change, because we will be able to walk up to NPCs and gain quests that way instead of the bulletin board. Right now though all the storyline we get is from the News board.

Right there. This guy just pointed out the problem here. He just used "mmorpg" in comparison to this game.

This isn't an mmorpg. It is however an mmo.

They are not the same thing. Mmo means absolutely nothing more than mass amounts of players in a single world.

It might be instanced, or sharded for performance issues, but this is an mmo.

That being said, the problem is that people think "mmo" means they are entitled to mmo RPG elements, because we typically refer to things like wow as an "mmo", while ignoring the rest of the acronym.


Mmo isn't defined by concurrency. period.

It only means everyone (a massive number) is on the same persistent world. Individual play instances can occur within an mmo, but all players are able to interact together.

to that end, wow is actually less persistent than this game is, with multiple servers.
 
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Sure.
...
For starters, all items are commodity items, and all can be purchased from the environment. Consequently, even if we had the ability to trade with each other there'd be no point in doing so as there'd be no means of making money, only losing money. Until items are available that can only be produced (either by looting or crafting) by players, no meaningful player trade activity can take place even if a system was created to support it.

If I remember correctly, there were "unique" (or perhaps more appropriately "rare") weapons at one point in the beta. "Overcharged" lasers and such. Those could make a reappearance as quest loot in very difficult quests that are hard to find, a little akin to the current Federal/Imperial progression quests maybe. That doesn't address your whole argument, but it could be a starting point at least. There are also commodities that NPC drop that are not found in stations, but it seems a bit random right now. Crafting would be awesome, but I don't think that's on FD's TODO at all unfortunately.

If suddenly landed with the task of sorting it out, and assuming the underlying architecture would take it, I'd at very least* introduce non-commodity loot** plus a means of selling it and swapping it. That provides the building blocks for the whole MMO experience. Inter-player trade becomes viable as there are now things that can't just be bought cheaper from the environment, risk taking (and therefore the ability of the game designers to provide that risk, which don't currently have) changes from a credits per hour calculation to a more goal-based calculation***, and the extra element of danger that could be introduced as a result of making risk taking necessary would allow for a decent "no opportunity cost" reason to group. Said non-commodity loot would also introduce the prospect of generated mission chains that were sufficiently challenging as to require assistance from others - go kill Really Nasty Pirate Gang X, we'll give you some neat stuff... kill a few players aligned to faction X in combat zone Y, have this shiny thing, etc.

I for one think this is a bloody good idea. Combining tasks like fighting an mining, while also requiring people to work together, as in your example, would be very nice indeed. And shouldn't require too much work under the hood for FD (I am guessing). Darn, I hope a dev drops by this thread before it fades into oblivion :)


(The next stop would be adding a load more slots to ships to hold module buff type items, thereby diversifying things even more and allowing for much more specialised ships, maybe in the form of "bound to player" ship software upgrades that could be used to create a degree of specialisation we don't currently have. But hey, it's all just conjecture really. Good fun though nonetheless.)

This is also a good point. I'm currently in an Anaconda, which is a trader/fighter/smuggler/bounty hunter/pirate ship (although pirating doesn't work so great when trying to scoop 500 containers before the universe ends). Problem is right now, only trading really pays the fuel costs, so until content for larger ships is added, one can't really specialize away from trading. The solution would of course be to make sure missions scale so that a pirate in a Python can be as profitable (or at least almost) as a trader. Allowing your ship to feel somewhat "unique" to you due to a significantly large number of possible modules and tweaks would also be great, and would add a goal for those who have already the ship they want, equipped the way they want, but would love to take it further.
 
The point I was trying to make is that there is no definition of what an MMO is. There is no minimum number of players in a single world, no minimum number of players in a single instance (Eve is the only game I have played where there is a single world server and no instances). Eve copes with this by not being twitch or realtime (time slows down in a zone when it starts getting crowded).

For me ED is an MMO with many 1000's of players in a single world with relatively small max number of players in a single instance.

Ultimately ED is an MP online game that is unique in its approach. The MMO tag isn't really that important.
 
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