Arcade or Simulator game? The dangers of fan-service
- Thread starter Yank31
- Start date
But yet that is exactly what its being reduced, to. Go look at all the xmillion per hour guys, what have they all got in common?
They all sit in Res sites. They all do a loop of trade they got off the interwebs. They all "grind". None of them are playing the game. They are all getting cash to get the next big ship. So why model a game on this simplistic game style? Why cater to this?
Why not add deep content. Keep the game with repercussions and good and bad moments. Yes its a game, but damn it a game is more fun with DANGER. Not with 2.4million from piñata firing at a res site and a 204 credit repair bill.
Do you ever see posts with danger in them from these guys? Or is it all, "Hi im making 2.3million an hour, how can I do more?"
N then you guys come back with "Well, *cough cough* time consuming isn't hard!!"
Seriously... full on facepalm...
Most annoying thing is I know a LOT of players want difficulty, but I think the average skill level is maybe holding this back. So keep in the easy mode for the "erm taking a long time isn't hard" then add in some top level content for those of us who don't like our games handed on a plate.
Some bounties where you have to check different syustems and stations for the guy, some battles where we get an ass kicking and some top end ships that are Shamazing but cost a hell of a lot to run and repair!!
We made the people who don't want to play the game happy, now lets make those who love spending time in game happy!
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Whilst I agree that generally 1.2 changes are in the right direction, and lower fuel and repair prices than before would make sense, with further hindsight, they've go a smidge too far in the wrong direction. I'm looking at this as 'bracketing the target'. Next iteration will be 'fire for effect' I'm sure.
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As for the sim vs. game argument, personally, I don't want the game to end up anything like the promo videos
. Can you understand why, as people backed a game that promised some complexities (as hinted at in the DDA's), we now have a degree of trepidation at the changes being made, 'supposedly' to appease the 'masses'? (I think the market is nearer the mark ) The fun should come from the challenge of learning to fly your ship, use the systems effectively, and participate in a deep universe where your actions have consequence to at least your self (if not others) - i.e. NOT AN ARCADE GAME!. .
Traders do need a more dangerous game though. Outside of core worlds those guys should be scared
. Note the DDA's also cover this - aside from interdictions (which are lacking right now), large ships should also incur crew costs and should have to hire wingmen (who could both mutiny) for dangerous systems. Further balancing will also be needed when (if?) cargo insurance gets implemented.
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Well, this is how I see it - Elite simulates (to a degree) our galaxy, how star systems works, orbiting planets and all that cool stuff.
Unfortunately Elite ships handles like in every other space game - yes, arcade way. We fly planes in space for the most time - yes yes you can FA off - I know. I was very upset when I cloud no longer keep my acceleration with FA off.
What makes elite closer to actually simulating things is ship system management - and its awesome for person like me that fly in DCS every day.
Its a sim-cade like game. And I truly hope it will stay closer to a sim part.
Unfortunately Elite ships handles like in every other space game - yes, arcade way. We fly planes in space for the most time - yes yes you can FA off - I know. I was very upset when I cloud no longer keep my acceleration with FA off.
What makes elite closer to actually simulating things is ship system management - and its awesome for person like me that fly in DCS every day.
Its a sim-cade like game. And I truly hope it will stay closer to a sim part.
You can attempt a degree of plausibility in your modelling, in order to engender willing suspension of disbelief in the user. There are usually degrees to everything in the world, not absolutes as you suggest.
I'll accept that the nature of what's being 'simulated' makes the argument somewhat subjective..
You can also 'simulate' things that don't exist - forecasting future weather for example, or extrapolating how fast a T-Rex could have moved.
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Amen. Said it before, iWar2 in Elite's universe. Ultimate space game right there...
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One more thing, every time I play Elite it screams for closer to real life space flight model, like in Pioneer. Unfortunetely SP was killed and we cant have mods. I would kill for a mod that would allow me to do "Orbiter" in Elite galaxy.
The lack of real danger in the game is true. Is that reason to make everything so time consuming than 90% will not bother doing it and just plain quit? I don't think so.
You can leave the station in that free Sidey.
Funsies!
If you had phrased "It should be accessible and fun", I would be with you, but easy? Hell-a-no, this shouldn't be casual space farmville. And I am not even asking Dark Souls hard. I want my steak medium-rare, but still RARE (rare meaning challenging here)!
Kinda hard for the devs though, make it easy enough for the 1st hour rookies and casual players and still not lose the Hi-skill players to total boredom.
Actually, no, we have it now casual ready, add some hi-skill content!
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+1 Say it loud.
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Ideas Man
Banned
I understand yes, you backers are getting shafted I think, really do.Whilst I agree that generally 1.2 changes are in the right direction, and lower fuel and repair prices than before would make sense, with further hindsight, they've go a smidge too far in the wrong direction. I'm looking at this as 'bracketing the target'. Next iteration will be 'fire for effect' I'm sure.
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As for the sim vs. game argument, personally, I don't want the game to end up anything like the promo videos
.
Traders do need a more dangerous game though. Outside of core worlds those guys should be scared
However, the changes are to make the arcade side of the game more fun, nothing more really, no one has answered me when I ask:
How has the recent combat changes and rewards affected how you personally trade / explore?
The arcade side of the game should be as arcadey as possible, but that doesn't mean the other game styles have to get shafted, I agree (and they aren't).
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Go find your own difficult content then, it is out there.
the game should be fun and easy, I stand by it.
Actually, if it would take 3 seconds it would be great. Right now it takes 0 seconds for 1 ton as well as for 200 tons. I don't think it should take hours, but 2-5 seconds - in which FD's audio team could use it's magic again
That would actually be a nice touch, that and a little service/repair truck rolling up when you dock. It doesn't have to take very long, just adds to the atmosphere.
Won't ever happen though, I still remember the outrage of the how "slow" the docking unlock was.
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For those pining for "danger and real action", have you visited Lugh recently in open?
I'll answer then - none whatsoever. Indeed, I welcome the combat changes (reduced costs (in principle), and upped AI interdictions) if they encourage more combat, as I firmly believe traders (and to a lesser extent explorers) have had it way too easy so far. With the combat changes I believe 1.2 (at least the beta, we seem to have gone backwards a bit in 1.2.04) was a lot closer to the original games, and more importantly more fun. However, that wasn't due to combat becoming 'more arcade', just more frequent, NPCs more numerous, and the AI generally, more dangerous.
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I believe that the game systems should be easy to learn and intuitive, but there should always be extra depth for those who want to dig further (e.g. FA off should provide more manuverability if you can master it, ditto pips management and fire group management). I suppose it's no different to any fighting game - basic moves get you so far, but if you learn the combos...
I noticed no one answered this, and I think it's obvious why. It doesn't. It doesn't negatively impact those who do not play as Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters, or Explorers. But it's bad. Because reasons. Because it's too easy.
I had my friend, who has been on haitus, tell me that the recent boost to income is what brought him back to the game. He didn't want to grind out trade (although he makes jokes about missin it) he wanted to shoot pirates and Federation scum with me. And that's what I want to do. I hunted bounties and ran military sorties for the Empire in 1997, I'll hunt bounties and run military sorties for the Empire in 2015. I don't want to trade, it makes no sense for me, as Commander Prometheus Darko (not me as Aaron, HR boy wonder), Imperial Slave who served under a bounty hunter aboard The Cerberous, who spent years learning how to co-pilot a Python, whose only skills are fighting and flying, to suddenly sit down and learn the finer points of galactic economics. I was given an Eagle by my old owner upon paying my debt, not a an econ 101 book.
My story within the Elite universe is not of a trader. It's Django Unchained in Space. Django didn't trade fish. He shot fools in faces. I shoot fools in faces. Enemies of the Emperor, enemies of the Alliance, anyone flying Federation colors. So what, I can't play my game, I can't blaze my own trail because my trail doesn't involve truckin'?
It's not hurting anyone, it's even helping the traders whom I occasionally escort, because I can protect them better, and at the end of the day, everyone is having fun. But don't forget, fun is a finite commodity, and if someone else is allowed to enjoy the game, your fun must be proportionately reduced. It's like the seventh law of thermodynamics or something, isn't it?
Ideas Man
Banned
Thanks for the honest answers
As I suspect really I think that the people who had no interest in combat are feeling zero change to their game really regarding the much needed combat improvements (which many people are really enjoying), yet still feel the need to moan about it all.
I honestly think these people just like a good whinge at this point ha ha.
Even the lowering of the price of the new ships prices doesn't affect them in the least bit, it only benefits combat oriented folk really, yet still they put their 2 pennies worth in something that doesn't even concern them.
As I suspect really I think that the people who had no interest in combat are feeling zero change to their game really regarding the much needed combat improvements (which many people are really enjoying), yet still feel the need to moan about it all.
I honestly think these people just like a good whinge at this point ha ha.
Even the lowering of the price of the new ships prices doesn't affect them in the least bit, it only benefits combat oriented folk really, yet still they put their 2 pennies worth in something that doesn't even concern them.
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Everyone's an armchair critic/developer/publisher/psychologist. Especially on the internet.
Ideas Man
Banned
If FD designed the game you wanted, then credits wouldn't even be a part of the game. I see you post a lot on these forums, I mostly lurk myself, but I think you're the exact type of player FD should avoid listening too. There are plenty of games out there for you to "get your fix" and Elite: Dangerous isn't, nor should be, one of those games. ED is about immersing yourself into the game, becoming a space commander, and embracing ALL ASPECTS of the game whether that's combat, trading, exploration or missions. People like you just want the good without the bad and act entitled when someone suggests otherwise.
Refuel costs, repairs, ammunition - All these small aspects of the game give your credits purpose outside of purchasing ships. I actually felt like I was maintaining my ship and keeping it operational with the previous costs. I agree that repairs needed reduced for larger ships, 200k repair on a 40% Asp was crazy expensive, but FD has reduced repairs and fuel to the point of being trivial.
I agree that combat needed to be profitable, but T7 levels of profit seems kind of high. There is no purpose to the T6 or T7 now, unless you truly want to embrace trading. I can make 3.6mil an hour in my T7 on a one-jump route 2700t round trip. Now, I can make about the same just shooting ships in a RES. Does it break some monotony of trading? Sure, it does, but it doesn't remove the "grind". Instead of grinding trades, I'm just grinding bounties, and the same people who complained about the grind before will do it again when they get tired of bounty hunting... which gets old fast in my opinion.
In my heart-of-hearts I trust that FD know what they are doing and won't degrade the more immersive aspects of ED, but in my mind I know that this isn't the case. Shortly after the XBone announcement, we see these drastic changes. I expected this type of entitlement and whining from the console crowd when they showed up, but I never thought the community would be this needy from the PC crowd and early adopters of the game.
People like Yank and I want an immersive game that takes time and the achievement is in gaining your next upgrade, your next ship, or your next combat rank. Unfortunately FD are going for the throwaway approach to gaming. Spend 20 hours and you won't have the best ship, but you will have enough for something like the FDL or Python now, baring upgrades. It just seems to be the approach to game design these days, as a lot of vocal players don't want to embrace anything of substance or purpose.
I never once felt the need to ask FD for anything. I embraced the game for how it was designed and I loved everything about it. Nope, people like you would rather come to the forums kicking and screaming, because the game just doesn't play how you want.
It's sad to see FD compromise the game this way.
Following real world events maybe. Fuel prices have dropped in real life and so too will the delivery of other consumables and spare parts for repairs as a result. Maybe when the real world fuel prices go up again (and the will) then fuel prices might go up in the game as well. Maybe more real life than arcade?