Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Zmidponk]

So? I like things to be difficult. What has that got to do with anything?

I also like things to be fair, and not to be pushed to play solo if I want to see my side win.

So, if you're right, by nerfing defenses, all you'll do is make PvE combat pretty difficult - and PvP combat utterly impossible. So you will still be pushed to play solo if you want to see your side win.

No. MOST players are better than the best NPCs. VERY FEW players are worse than the worst NPC. See the difference?

I see you saying that. I simply don't see that being true.

First of all, I am not saying PvP is ludicrously hard

So you're saying that, in PvP combat, any time you come up against players, you have to 'run with 27% hull left', but that's not ludicrously hard. I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't make sense.

I am saying right now defenses can get too strong and the offense/defense balance is a bit off. And actually, what I am saying is that balancing offense/defense is just the first step in making PvE difficulty even begin to approach PvP.

However, I do not think, even if they could, that FD will make PvE ever as difficult as PvP. Simply because that would make their game quite unwelcoming for new players.

If difficult PvE combat would make the game so 'unwelcoming', why doesn't difficult PvP combat, which is what you're saying the vast majority of PvP combat currently is?

Let me draw it for you:

PvP difficulty: **************************************
PvE difficulty: *************

Now let's increase PvP difficulty by lowering the strength of available defences - this will automatically have an impact on PvE difficulty as well:

PvP difficulty: *****************************************************
PvE difficulty: ****************************

Would you look at that, PvE is still easier than PvP.

As you're continuing to argue against a point I'm simply not making, I see I'm going to have to illustrate this as simply as you have.

Number of threads complaining about PvE combat being too hard: **

The difficulty of PvE combat, according to your interpretation of this: **

The number of threads complaining about PvP combat being too hard: **

The difficulty of PvP combat, applying the same logic: **

My conclusion about PvP and PvE combat difficulties, using this metric: [ERROR!!! ERROR!!! OUT OF CHEESE ON LINE 1079!!!! INSERT EDAM AND REBOOT UNIVERSE!!!]


My own conclusion about PvP difficulty, based on actually playing the game, and seeing others play it: [ERROR!!! UNABLE TO GIVE PRECISE FIGURE, TOO MANY VARIABLES!!!]

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

well I have had another of my weekends with no decent internet. Despite this i was able to play for a good many hrs and really enjoy the game.... something that many on here would gleefully take away from me and others like me. Whilst if ED was a competetive Esport kind of game I could see why me earning 40mil credits in lugh in solo would be an issue.... but given this would only be an issue if ED was primarily a PvP game, rather than a multiplayer game where PvP is rare (which was outlined in interviews with DB himself), then its all good!.

The product is working as advertised, and thanks to doing a little homeworking and understanding the product I was buying I am very happy with it. some games allow mode switching, others dont...... If elite had NOT supported this there is no way I would have backed as highly as I did as I would only have been able to play it for half of the time I have....

 

[Seonid]

They are wrong because their arguments are false. Mine are logical and supported by demonstrable facts.

The only fact present is that the above is your personal opinion. nothing wrong with that. If you choose to spend some of your time regurgitating the same old "arguments" and "facts" that were done to death long before you even created a forum account, that's your prerogative. It's exactly the reason that this thread exists, after all. The relevant quotes in the OP have not changed either, not that anyone reads them...

 

[Meritz]

well I have had another of my weekends with no decent internet. Despite this i was able to play for a good many hrs and really enjoy the game.... something that many on here would gleefully take away from me and others like me.

Nobody is trying to prevent you from playing. Nor from enjoying the fruits of your labor. But the same should apply to everyone. And when Open players are faced with a choice to either go Solo in order to be competitive in a community goal, or to suffer because they want to play in the Open, that's a problem every player who cares about fairness should concede. The playing field should be level for all.

All I see here are people who only care what *they* can get. And this attitude that you're a poor victim and we are evil psychopaths who live only for the suffering of others is becoming annoying.

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The only fact present is that the above is your personal opinion.

Answer then, these two questions:

1. Are the skills and cognitive capacities of the average player greater than those of a piece of code?

2. Do NPCs use the same ships and equipment as players do?

 

[W0OCQCK]

Did some PVP in Mobius today.

The lots of Masters and Experts running big ships, not knowing what to do when its not an NP. Was a real eye opener

Spoiler.. They crumbled

Hey that's kinda cool, your saying you entered a designated non-PVP group, IE a designated PVE Group, and had a little PVP fun yes, against it's published and publicly advertised rule set. I proud of you. Hope you had fun. : )

 

[Seonid]

Answer then, these two questions:

1. Are the skills and cognitive capacities of the average player greater than those of a piece of code?

2. Do NPCs use the same ships and equipment as players do?

1. Probably not, some bias here as I spent many years fixing various things that were in the hands of "average" people, some are far more dense and incapable than a simple 555 timer. And I'm not even including the average squaddie as they would really skew the results...
2. Yes.

 

[Zmidponk]

Actually, it's just occurred to me what your problem might be, Meritz.

Any time you come up against other players, you apparently have to 'run with 27% hull left', even though you were also talking about flying around In a Vulture. Well, my ship of choice at the moment is a Cobra, and I don't have that problem, so maybe you just suck at PvP. That being the case, maybe you find Open so ridiculously hard, you think Open players should be given bonuses because it's so hard to play in Open, due to constant repair bills and/or ship destructions.

 

[Meritz]

Hey that's kinda cool, your saying you entered a designated non-PVP group, IE a designated PVE Group, and had a little PVP fun yes, against it's published and publicly advertised rule set. I proud of you. Hope you had fun. : )

But wait, if NPCs are so hard and equal to fighting players, how come you guys didn't mess him up real bad with all that experience you have?

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1. Probably not, some bias here as I spent many years fixing various things that were in the hands of "average" people, some are far more dense and incapable than a simple 555 timer. And I'm not even including the average squaddie as they would really skew the results...

You know, I asked a serious question and you answer with a joke.

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Actually, it's just occurred to me what your problem might be, Meritz.

Any time you come up against other players, you apparently have to 'run with 27% hull left', even though you were also talking about flying around In a Vulture. Well, my ship of choice at the moment is a Cobra, and I don't have that problem, so maybe you just suck at PvP. That being the case, maybe you find Open so ridiculously hard, you think Open players should be given bonuses because it's so hard to play in Open, due to constant repair bills and/or ship destructions.

Same questions for you Zmidponk.

Answer the following:

1. Are the skills and cognitive capacities of the average player greater than those of a piece of code?

2. Do NPCs use the same ships and equipment as players do?

 

[Majinvash]

Hey that's kinda cool, your saying you entered a designated non-PVP group, IE a designated PVE Group, and had a little PVP fun yes, against it's published and publicly advertised rule set. I proud of you. Hope you had fun. : )

A lot less fun that expected, very few players, most combat logged (which is an exploit and against FD rules) and some used very naughty language.

I also just joined a group called Mobius, which i believed was player vs everybody.. but now i know better.

Even if I had of known, I signed no agreement with Mobius, nor used any exploits or cheats. I didn't even at any point grief.
I used a standard game mechanic to inject a little play my way into a group that accepted me in.

The lack of player interaction in there was terrible, may as well play solo. So I will be sticking to Open.

 

[Seonid]

The lack of player interaction in there was terrible

You missed the point.

 

[ianw]

A lot less fun that expected, very few players, most combat logged (which is an exploit and against FD rules) and some used very naughty language.

I also just joined a group called Mobius, which i believed was player vs everybody.. but now i know better.

Even if I had of known, I signed no agreement with Mobius, nor used any exploits or cheats. I didn't even at any point grief.
I used a standard game mechanic to inject a little play my way into a group that accepted me in.

The lack of player interaction in there was terrible, may as well play solo. So I will be sticking to Open.

Do you think anyone actually believes that?

 

[JosiahD]

I think anyone arguing against the mode switching needs to remember a few important points:

1. It has been a deliberate design from very early in development, if not day 1. You knew this when you signed up for this game (or you were poor in your research). Suck it up.

2. If I understand the player stats correctly (at least the few times I've seen stats mentioned), most players seem to be playing in solo or private groups, or at least switching between modes. Given people who oppose the mode switching are only a subset of any of these (primarily within the open group I would expect), such people are even more in the minority.

3. Those players who are primarily solo or in private groups do so largely because they're not interested in playing a game by YOUR rules. Trying to force them to open or induce some advantages or disadvantage to one mode or another will not change that imho.

 

[Space Dandy]

A lot less fun that expected, very few players, most combat logged (which is an exploit and against FD rules) and some used very naughty language.

I also just joined a group called Mobius, which i believed was player vs everybody.. but now i know better.

Even if I had of known, I signed no agreement with Mobius, nor used any exploits or cheats. I didn't even at any point grief.
I used a standard game mechanic to inject a little play my way into a group that accepted me in.

The lack of player interaction in there was terrible, may as well play solo. So I will be sticking to Open.

Well I am not an expert fighter pilot or PVPER yet I do not log from other players that can't respect the mobius PVE rule even if I am in a almost base sidey and they are in asp and vultures and whatnot. Try not to lump all mobius players into the same exploiter boat as I would bet there is much more of that happening in open for obvious reasons.

I play mobius because open play in lugh would not be fun for me as I learn the game that said one thing I find funny from you who seems to be saying peeps in mobius suck compared to your elite skills is that you are going to try and make us believe you do not know what PVP or PVE mean hmmm....color me skeptical.

As for combat logging I have been playing mobius for my last few sessions and no one has combat logged that I have seen when I encounter other commanders.

 

[Meritz]

As for combat logging I have been playing mobius for my last few sessions and no one has combat logged that I have seen when I encounter other commanders.

Considering you have to be asleep for NPCs to threaten the existence of anything but the most cheap or ineptly flown ship, of course they haven't. Combat logging is somewhat endemic to PvP encounters.

 

[Space Dandy]

Considering you have to be asleep for NPCs to threaten the existence of anything but the most cheap or ineptly flown ship, of course they haven't. Combat logging is somewhat endemic to PvP encounters.

Which just goes to show what MAJINVASH says if full of baloney. TY for agreeing.

The game has a pretty damn good design, those that want a solo game like there was suppose to have can play that way those that just want to play in groups with like minded people can do so and those that want a hardcore experiences can find it in open play.

I have to ask why do some like yourself have their knickers in a twist about how others choose to play? If the playstyle you obviously enjoy is so great and everyone likes it so much you have no reason to whinge and moan here like you have been doing.

Maybe yourself and a few others in this thread should go pvp in game and leave off the forum pvping before you get yourselves in trouble!

 

[Meritz]

1. It has been a deliberate design from very early in development, if not day 1. You knew this when you signed up for this game (or you were poor in your research). Suck it up.

It's poor design that's going to end up hurting the game long term. We can and do suck it up, but what does that change?

2. If I understand the player stats correctly (at least the few times I've seen stats mentioned), most players seem to be playing in solo or private groups, or at least switching between modes. Given people who oppose the mode switching are only a subset of any of these (primarily within the open group I would expect), such people are even more in the minority.

You know, when discussing fairness, invoking majority is really not the good way to go about it.

3. Those players who are primarily solo or in private groups do so largely because they're not interested in playing a game by YOUR rules. Trying to force them to open or induce some advantages or disadvantage to one mode or another will not change that imho.

And at the same time, it is ok to expect Open players to choose between being effective and playing the way they want?

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Which just goes to show what MAJINVASH says if full of baloney. TY for agreeing.

You're welcome, thank you for supporting my argument.

 

[Zmidponk]

Same questions for you Zmidponk.

Answer the following:

1. Are the skills and cognitive capacities of the average player greater than those of a piece of code?

You sound like someone who likes to use big words, but doesn't know what they actually mean. Someone could have a HUGE cognitive capacity, and know everything there is to know about numerous different subjects - and still be an utterly crap pilot in this game. The question actually is whether you can definitively say PvP combat is harder than PvE combat, and the answer is, and will always be, 'it depends on who you're fighting' (unless, of course, FD, for some reason, gives this game's AI a fairly severe lobotomy, and, by the sounds of things, they're looking to actually do the reverse).

2. Do NPCs use the same ships and equipment as players do?

As far as I know, yes.

 

[ianw]

Well I'm not in Mobius group and I don't combat log.

But if i was and someone attacked me in an area where the group rules excluded it then i would, no problem.

 

[Majinvash]

Do you think anyone actually believes that?

*Winky Face*

 

[Lokus Midgard]

Considering you have to be asleep for NPCs to threaten the existence of anything but the most cheap or ineptly flown ship

Demonstrably false, as I (and others) have pointed out with examples several times already.