Victims of Piracy Support Group

[Executive]

Seriously I have reading comprehension problems. Did you notice the title of the thread. Seems to me if you were able to comprehend what you are reading you would not even be in this thread.

You mean the misleading title that actually has nothing to do with the return-key-free scribbles that followed in the OP that was painful to read?
Yeah, I noticed.

You complained about a pirate opening fire on you after you didn't answer his demands in, what you claim, have been 10 seconds.
Even if it just have been 10 seconds, that is quite a long time in that particular situation and the error is on you, like it or not.
Typing "OK!" in chat hardly takes 10 seconds, does it?

If I get interdicted while hauling, I sure won't take my sweet time and think about what that Clipper just told me to do.
I know I either drop my stuff - or die.
Since I prefer to play in a more 'believable' way where a human life actually matters, I sure do as he says.

You got lucky. You lived.
WHEN I pirate, which I don't at the moment, I kill every tryhard relentlessly if he or she does not follow my, very clear, demands.
Why? Because I don't have time for bull-dung and peoples stupidity or false pride!
It is a game and a gamble.
You comply, I will tip my hat and be on my way.
You wanna play hero? Then you die.

Simple thing and 100% your call - so don't make threads to whimper like a little girl because of your mistakes in the future, please.
(Or at least don't be surprised when many people call on what you said...)

Not sure I really understand what the OP is so upset about. He was emotionally driven to post about it here in the forums which surely is a good thing? This kind of pvp interaction should be cherished. The AI won't do that.

Still, there's always solo if it really does feel like a personal violation when a player RP's with you in this way. Perhaps take an escort next time?

You know I am seriously starting to wonder if any of you actually read anything before you start flapping your trap.

I seriously start to wonder if you read your own posts before hitting the submit button.
Galdatron makes a perfectly fine point.

 

[SeregDuin]

Really now?
Well, maybe that is why I said: "And don't even try to claim..."
You know...because no one said it (in this thread)... yet.

Amusing.

Oh my god LOL!!!

 

[Galdatron]

You know I am seriously starting to wonder if any of you actually read anything before you start flapping your trap.

I read your initial wall of text, about how you as a player felt violated and, how you thought the whole experience was sad, and you didn't want other players to feel that way.

Did I miss something?

 

[Executive]

I read your initial wall of text, about how you as a player felt violated and, how you thought the whole experience was sad, and you didn't want other players to feel that way.

Did I miss something?

No, you didn't... don't worry.

 

[SeregDuin]

I read your initial wall of text, about how you as a player felt violated and, how you thought the whole experience was sad, and you didn't want other players to feel that way.

Did I miss something?

You missed 12 more pages and 3 more days where issues a have come up, ideas have been exchanged, , arguments have been had, minds have been changed and resolutions been made (probably more arguments than anything).

 

[Globusdiablo]

.....Most pirates look for a thrilling human interaction in this otherwise so dead, empty and shallow game...

Traders usually don't care for that and just want profit, profit, profit. Yes, yes, "trading is so much fun!" come on...

Sooo... the actual lunatics might not be the pirates here, but the anti-social loners who only care about numbers instead of interaction.

The way I see it, you can have your thrilling human interaction with all the other pirates in open.

And all the profit, profit, profit "trading is so much fun" traders can have their fun in groups or solo.

I wonder who will miss who?...

Think hard.

 

[Globusdiablo]

To clarify: My point is, you've chosen the hardest role in the game: the pirate. Loathed by all others. But this is a valid role, and you chose it because you want to be loathed.

But this is a game. There is no real threat to anyone. This is why you will find fewer and fewer traders in open, and those who are will ctrl alt delete at the first sign of cmdr trouble.

I did play in open up until a T7, feel free to find my reasoning elsewhere in this thread, but my point is if you want to play as a pirate in open, and expect other players (traders - you do want them in open right?), you should consider the game environment conditions (how to keep fresh meat floating past).

You won't have anything but pirates to pirate if you continue to insult players with other play styles.

I respect your roleplaying choice, but I'm not sure the pirates as a "community" have thought their tactics through. Which is completely in line with being a true pirate: ARGH! I'LL BE GOING TO ROB SOME POOR SOD NOW, AND HE BEST LIKE IT! ARGH...

It's just not going to work in the current game environment. Looking at it from FD's point of view, who do you think is buying this game? Pirates or traders in general? You know the answer. So they will always make sure to have a "secure" game environment for the main target group.

To sum up: If you really want to see traders in open, you have to throttle down your hostility towards cmdrs playing as traders and rethink your claims.

 

[dayrth]

I understand your frustration with him opening fire so quickly but you need to look at it through the pirates eyes before you condemn them for it.

No you don't. Their trying to steel your stuff, and will happily kill you for it. You have every right to get annoyed and seek a little revenge. All part of the game

 

[dayrth]

Which is why as I mentioned, it will chase the traders to solo. Not everyone wants to play cops and robbers. Some people want to play solitaire. If you're playing cops and robbers in front of someone playing solitaire, running all over his cards... He's just going to go do it in the other room.

The way piracy is now, there's no incentive for anyone to play in open except the odd greeting from a passing player. Give pirates equal opportunity targets in NPCs AND other players. Right now pirates have no reason at all to go after NPCs because frankly the NPCs are all carrying garbage. Traders don't like playing on open because no one likes their time being stolen from them. For some its not a trivial amount of time either. The trader/pirate dynamic needs looking in to. I don't want there to be no pirates left, but not many people would be willing to GIVE you their cargo because "That's my playstyle, please try to understand." When the mechanics make you force your playstyle on to an unwilling player, they aren't going to like it. If there's an option to opt out you can bet they'll take it. That leaves us with the situation we have now...

FD needs to seriously look at how piracy is implemented. I don't really have an suggestions... I'm not a game designer I'm afraid. Even so, I can see when an intended game mechanic has gone wrong.

Can't agree less. I trade rares, as well as bounty hunting and a bit of exploration, and always in open. I can avoid player pirates for the most part by avoiding the systems they frequent. I could play in solo or a private group, which is always an option for those who don't like it, but it would not be as exciting. I fly a Cobra, so can put up a fight if I choose to, or dump the cargo and run if I'm out gunned.

I still get angry when I'm robbed, but without the possibility of it happening, life would be dull. I think the game mechanic is just fine.

 

[dayrth]

I know I'm hogging the thread a bit and this will be my last post here for a bit, I promise.

I could be wrong, (I often am and I'm sure SeregDuin will correct me if that's the case), but I think the OP has been mostly misunderstood. It seems to me that this was posted as a story about a players experience, the way it made him feel and the consequences for his future game play. There was anger and frustration, but I don't think any actual condemnation or desire to change the game.

I for one like to hear players stories and think it's sad that SeregDuin has had such a hard time for sharing his.

 

[Exluna]

Can't agree less. I trade rares, as well as bounty hunting and a bit of exploration, and always in open. I can avoid player pirates for the most part by avoiding the systems they frequent. I could play in solo or a private group, which is always an option for those who don't like it, but it would not be as exciting. I fly a Cobra, so can put up a fight if I choose to, or dump the cargo and run if I'm out gunned.

I still get angry when I'm robbed, but without the possibility of it happening, life would be dull. I think the game mechanic is just fine.

Your opinion has been noted and I commend you for it. However, I think the ease of just switching to solo for an easier time is a tempting one. Sure you might enjoy the excitement of it all but I'll go out on a limb here and guess that you might be a bit of a rarity compared to the average player who just want to trade without any trouble. Of course I don't have any numbers to back this up, only FD has the metrics but I'm just guessing here.

Perhaps they don't want exciting, perhaps they aren't in the mood... Whatever the reason. I'm trying to illustrate that the way the game is working now its heavily skewed on the side of the traders. They can opt out, and go to play solo if they want undisturbed trading to pursue their goals. The pirates don't have such an option because well... Pirating from NPCs isn't profitable, and with so many traders opting for the path of least resistance... Pirates too, should be given a visible path that they can pursue, regardless of game mode. Given a slow night for a pirate for instance, they resign themselves to doing... Something else. They can't continue being pirates without other players.

Increasing profits from NPCs would probably help, adding mechanics to make the path of being a pirate (with or without the need for interaction from other players) would make it more attractive. Having true "Pirate" systems where there simply IS no commodities market, and everything is stolen, would give them some exclusivity. There's safe havens patrolled by the law. It stands to reason that there should be wretched hives of scum and villany, too!! There would need to be good, decent pirate AI as well because this would affect pirates, traders and bounty hunters alike. Seriously, I don't think every player that wants to play a pirate specifically WANTS to target other players. They aren't doing so by choice alone... They do so because they can't make a profit any other way as a pirate. I just propose that the game support them by giving them a way.

The pirates are dependant on the traders, but the traders are only dependant on themselves. No parity. One group needs from another. The other group just doesn't have to take part and the pirates are screwed. That's what I'm getting at.

Just a simple example... If you were to play solo, and ONLY solo and wanted to be a pirate... I think you'd be in for a really tough time. Tougher than any other path that you can choose in the game. There simply aren't the mechanics to support the way pirates want to play. One day I might want to play a pirate but currently, its just not attractive enough for me to want to. That's what I meant. Sorry for this being so long, thought I'd elaborate.

 

[Simi Kusoni]

Who do you think is buying this game? Pirates or traders in general? You know the answer. So they will always make sure to have a "secure" game environment for the main target group.

Are traders their main target group, or the largest demographic? Source?

As for making the game easier being the best way to attract players interested in trade or PvE, I'm not sure that's true. I played Eve for nearly a decade, and most of us that played that long were primarily involved in industry, trade and the higher level PvE. We stayed because it was difficult, and amassing our small fortunes felt like a true accomplishment. Elite lacks that.

Sure, the newbies in Eve were always crying for the game to be made easier on the forums, but CCP ignored them. And it served them well, the game has been running for about 13 years now and the in game economy has grown to the point where people have written papers on it. I don't think anyone is seriously going to make an argument that ED will last even a fraction of that amount of time, or ever develop a comparably complex and diverse market/industry system.

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Seriously, I don't think every player that wants to play a pirate specifically WANTS to target other players. They aren't doing so by choice alone... They do so because they can't make a profit any other way as a pirate. I just propose that the game support them by giving them a way.

Actually I'd always target players over NPCs, the fun part of piracy is finding systems where players are likely to set up trade routes, following them in SC without them noticing or dropping into their wake if they pop into a USS, negotiating, shooting their drives offline etc.

NPCs will never emulate the unpredictable nature of a human opponent.

 

[Exluna]

Actually I'd always target players over NPCs, the fun part of piracy is finding systems where players are likely to set up trade routes, following them in SC without them noticing or dropping into their wake if they pop into a USS, negotiating, shooting their drives offline etc.

NPCs will never emulate the unpredictable nature of a human opponent.

That's great for you! I have no problems with that, but wouldn't it be nice to have a choice for something else, if you couldn't find anyone? Some way to relieve the tedium of constantly searching for live targets? Throw a couple of juicy NPC Type-7s in to the mix amongst the other players? I think Pirates need more choices.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Are traders their main target group, or the largest demographic? Source?...

You know what I mean Simi. Where in Elite: Dangerous' marketing does it say: Come join the awesomest PvP free for all frag fest? Nowhere. And if it did, I wouldn't be playing this game.

But I'm cool. The way things are going, Pirates can PvP each other all they like in open, and everyone else can play in group or solo.

I'm just not sure that this is what you're advocating though?...

 

[ClymAngus]

Stop complaining on the forums please about proper game mechanics.

Thanks.

Now I think we're getting a little confused here over game mechanics and game structure. Game mechanics is part of the game structure but it's not the whole thing. The mechanics make the game work. The structure provides the frame work for individual action. Mechanics can effect structure, sure. Open fire on a station and you'll get an example of that.

But the mechanic itself doesn't define what a player CAN do in a game. That's structure. Now, in a game like this the structure is fairly loose. It certainly isn't a conveyor belt type of game like a platform scroller or the like. So the player can choose to be a lot of things and change what they want to do as the need takes them. So you can't really hide behind "game mechanic or game structure" when it comes to individual decisions made in the game. People have to take responsibility for their actions.

Example: Nothing in the game structure stops you constantly smashing your ship into the station. Doesn't mean you have to. But you can, if you like..... It might be a little unrewarding but the game won't stop you. The game (within limits) will not stop you acting like a complete C*** to other players. And the game won't stop me insulting pirates in a way that would have me on the floor if I said such things to their faces.

So I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. This is NOT complaining about "Game Mechanics" it's complaining about being caught with your hand in the cookie tin. Just because the game allows you to do something doesn't mean you have to and such "free action" teaches us a lot about our underlying personalities if we choose to listen. Morality is a veneer some people are lightly waxed some people have the whole french polish.

Lets just say in the real world I wouldn't trust a pirate in game to hold onto my money. You can learn a lot about people when they play. I do love the justifications though: "you got robbed suck it up" Well we kind of "fixed" all that with laws. Also with laws we fixed blood feuds and vengeance. Are you prepared to be stalked in game? Well that whats going to happen. Your not "just" going to have to kill someone once, your going to have to keep killing them. Again and again and again.

Then they'll youtube the one time they do hand you your ass and they'll post you the link. It WILL escalate. Because that's what humans do, they up the game when they feel themselves slighted. So enjoy the bravado now boys, sooner or later this isn't going to feel like a game you want to play any more.

Not a threat, more a prophesy.

 

[SeregDuin]

I know I'm hogging the thread a bit and this will be my last post here for a bit, I promise.

I could be wrong, (I often am and I'm sure SeregDuin will correct me if that's the case), but I think the OP has been mostly misunderstood. It seems to me that this was posted as a story about a players experience, the way it made him feel and the consequences for his future game play. There was anger and frustration, but I don't think any actual condemnation or desire to change the game.

I for one like to hear players stories and think it's sad that SeregDuin has had such a hard time for sharing his.

Yes that is exactly it .Only one person actually got what I was saying.
I really am a bad writer.

 

[Majinvash]

I love the "underlying personality" bull crap that keeps getting spouted by Solo and Mobius players.

This is a game, it has a huge element of role play.

Majinvash is a giant space and proud of that fact. Doesn't mean that I hold up old ladies or kick puppies in the face in real life.. ( I don't like dogs.. but that is entirely my person choice. )

Now as a mirror reverse.. This may hold true for scared traders or victims?. Are they really weak willed individuals, who would rather hide or cry about a part of the game THEY have access to but don't like?
Because it is easier to do that, rather than get better or just avoid dangerous areas ( Oh but we don't want to .. we have equal rights.. waa waa waa, You're a griefer )

With the bounties on my head from pirating and killing commanders, I should be running scared right now and worried about showing my face in any system.
But you know what.. I'm not, because I know how to play the game and worked hard to get here ( Shocker, piracy doesn't make a whole lot of money ) .
If and when I die.. I will carry on.. and this will never stop.

A bunch of Mobius commanders are spouting how they are going to hunt me down.... I would love them to.. I deserve it.. but I know that will never happen because they wont leave their little bubble of protection. "Cos Open AM scary and I might lose some of my MILLIONS of credits. zzzz"

I've had people report me in game, for interdicting them, requesting cargo and then killing them when they refuse or run. <-- Now with that logic, they should be doing that to EVERY NPC that happens upon them as well.
But they don't because NPC are a cake walk and they are unable or unwilling to become stronger or smarter. Or better yet, accept they are not as good as they think they are.

All these greedy traders, should have enough money to re-buy their ships a hundred times over. Yet cry and complain when they get offered a way out and decide not to take it.

By some of their logic, If they got mugged in real life, they would stab themselves in the face rather than hand over their wallet. You know cos Moral Victory and all that.....

Everyone in this game has the same options and ways to make money.

Right.. I am off out to punch a baby and maybe steal from a charity box.

Majinvash

 

[Sikamikanico]

@ Majinvash - I took note of your name while I was playing last night...I'll be keeping an eye out for you in Open..

 

[Snakebite]

I have read the threads about piracy as a legitimate career choice and, for the most part, I have agreed with the philosophy that ED needs all types of players to create the atmosphere of a real living society in space with all the beauty, wonder, violence and horror of the real world.
I have played as a trader, an explorer, a bounty hunter and a soldier and have lost myself in these roles as my imagination feeds on the images created by the game.
Occasionally on my travels, I have come across other players in remote places and greeted them with a "g'day" and a "fly safe" and moved along feeling like it was a small universe after all.
On occasion I have been pulled out of a frameshift daydream by AI pirates and depending on what ship I am flying I would run or fight and be happy to escaped with cargo or bounty with no ill effect.
Being an Elite fan since the old BBC version in 1984 I decided I should make the pilgrimage to Lave at least once. Last stop on the way was Diso where I docked to refuel and picked up 4 tonnes (was flying my cobra) of rare goods for about 300 cr each. I jump to Lave and within 30 seconds of arriving I get interdicted. As per usual I throttle back for an easy exit and first thing I do on exit is 4 pips to engines and hit the booster to get a little space while I decide next course of action. I see that my attacker is a human pilot in an Imperial Clipper. First time but that's ok I have nothing of value. I'm about to open the chat window for the usual "g'day" then the demand comes " Drop 30t of cargo or I will destroy you" . HUH!? WHA!? I don't have any cargo of value what do I do. This has never happened to me before. I know I have easily destroy elite AI clippers but this is a human.
I must have thought about it too long (about 10 seconds by my reckoning) and suddenly he opened fire. At least give me long enough to get to the cargo window or type a reply for crying out loud.
At the first shot my shields collapsed ..there's no way I could take this guy. I hit the booster and started to charge up the FSD. My heat went through the roof and not only was this guy gaining on me and chewing away at my hull but the heat was eating away from the inside. I took forever for the FSD to charge up and by the time I jumped I was down to 58% hull.
"Whew" I thought " I got away" ...but no a few seconds later the alarms went off again and this time I fought like a marlin but he managed to pull me out of frameshift again. This time I knew I couldn't fight. I went straight to the cargo bay and dumped my 1200 cr worth of cargo.
My assailant quipped me with some rhetorical politeness that made my skin crawl and I sent back a resigned "Whatever".
I jumped away and docked in Lave and repaired about 12000cr worth of damage.
I sat there for ages and all I could think was "What a sad experience that was".
This cad had just attacked me.
I didn't feel the frustration that I feel when my son snipers me at the spawn point 20 times in a row in halo. I didn't feel the disappointment that I feel when I finally succumb to 7 better players in AOE. These feelings pass within seconds and I go back for another game.
I had come to Lave as a pilgrimage. I was feeling nostalgic, happy, cruising through the galaxy hurting nothing and nobody and I was snapped out of it by someone who thinks it is OK to take what others have, what others have worked for. I felt like I had been mugged ..not my character ..me ..violated.
I had thought before about whether pirating was something I should try but now I know that I never will. I don't want to make other players feel like this ..it is just wrong.
Yeah I know all the pirates are screaming "what I wuss. why don't you go to Mobius or solo" but as Nietzsche : "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger".

I will stay in open as I always have but I will not hesitate again, next time I WILL kill you. You will not get one scrap of my cargo even if I have to jettison and destroy it myself. My mission now is pirates, human pirates. I am coming for you.

Wow, you took that really hard ! But thats exactly what makes Elite so great, for some reason the game really gets inside you... But Its a dangerous Galaxy, and Lave is not the most secure system out there. And I have to say that if it were not for the sense of danger then it would be a pretty dull experience. That is why almost all games have a violent theme, and Elite is no different in this regard.

All I can say is that you have two choices:

Either get a better armed ship and learn a few moves so that you have a chance in the rougher parts of the Galaxy. OR stay in the safe parts....

Safe flying Comander

 

[Simi Kusoni]

You know what I mean Simi. Where in Elite: Dangerous' marketing does it say: Come join the awesomest PvP free for all frag fest? Nowhere. And if it did, I wouldn't be playing this game.

But I'm cool. The way things are going, Pirates can PvP each other all they like in open, and everyone else can play in group or solo.

I'm just not sure that this is what you're advocating though?...

I don't think it's as black and white as "pirates" and "traders". People will take the path of least resistance, pirates will farm for bigger ships in solo and traders will swap to open for some pew pew.

It doesn't split the game into trader mode and pirate mode, it splits it into mindless PvE grind mode and pointless instanced PvP mode. The emergent game play you usually get in sandbox games comes from players trying to make money without dying, killing each other over resources, pirating one another. The roles are usually interchangeable, very often a "PvE" player might kill someone running a site he wants or develop a dislike for a fellow trader that's exhausting his favourite trade run.

None of that happens in Elite at the moment, and I'm not really advocating a solution just highlighting the problem. Personally I'm not even sure if there is a fix.

And it still doesn't make this any less true:

As for making the game easier being the best way to attract players interested in trade or PvE, I'm not sure that's true. I played Eve for nearly a decade, and most of us that played that long were primarily involved in industry, trade and the higher level PvE. We stayed because it was difficult, and amassing our small fortunes felt like a true accomplishment. Elite lacks that.


Sure, the newbies in Eve were always crying for the game to be made easier on the forums, but CCP ignored them. And it served them well, the game has been running for about 13 years now and the in game economy has grown to the point where people have written papers on it. I don't think anyone is seriously going to make an argument that ED will last even a fraction of that amount of time, or ever develop a comparably complex and diverse market/industry system.