1984 Elite vs 2014 Elite

[Killerhurtz]

This game has a long way to go, but that's to be expected. FE2 took 5½ years to write, with far less asset complexity and without any of the development headaches that all that multiplayer stuff and the background simulation must add. This game may have been in the planning stages for a long time, but I don't think they actually started real work until just before the KS campaign, so that means we've had 2.5 years of work done thus far. Given that fact, the pace of development is impressive.

It seems to me that since FDEV couldn't run on fumes until the product matured, they marketed the concept to those who would give them a bit more trust and patience than the average gamer. That worked out pretty well. The issue is that since the game was launched, and especially since it became available on Steam, it has caught the attention of the aforementioned average gamer, who possesses neither trust nor patience, and judges the game on what is currently in it.

Also, the fact that paying for the game is a one-time deal, no subscription fees or obvious free to play/pay to win shenanigans as with a lot of other online games, probably makes some buyers judge it on the same criteria as a boxed game that is complete on day one (barring DLC or bug fixes). Those other online games get a bit more leeway and people expect them to be basic on day one, only evolve and grow over time. The fact the this game isn't looking to drain our pockets on a regular basis might work against it in that sense.

I think the problem with ED is its aimed directly at those average* gamers
* by average I mean 7 year olds who'll throw there dummy out the pram if they take a loss.



Gamer "Boo Hoo I drove my space ship into a planet"
ED "There there don't worry we'll stop your spaceship for you before you hurt yourself"


Gamer "Boo Hoo I just got blowed up , not fair I was better"
ED "There there don't worry we'll kiss it better with a 95% refund"


Gamer "Boo Hoo bad man in space ship flips over and starts shooting back at me"
ED "There there don't worry, we'll make em fly in circle like your used to"


Gamer "I took this mission, its not difficult is it ? sob"
ED "Not to worry bubkins, just go to the system and we'll drop the mission directly in your flight path no matter which way you go"

 

[Druid]

Elite 1984 how can I describe it , Oh yes.

The one that has taken eighteen hours of every day for the last tenyears. My mother died; I hardly noticed. My father cut off his head and fried it in garlic in the hope of attracting my attention; I scarcely looked up from my work. My wife brought armies of lovers to the house, who worked in droves so that she might bring up a huge family of illegitimate children (edited for forums sake).

God love Blackadder.

 

[Ticondrius]

Being one of these old gamers that played E84 and later, as well as a huge array of games in other genres over the years, I find myself agreeing with both camps. Yes, a game built on something from before MUST strongly resemble it to "carry on the torch", so to speak. But at the same time, if the innovation is so lacking in the new title, then it might as well be just a refreshed re-release (See Final Fantasy Origins on PSX).

E84 was one of the major influences for EVE Online. Now THAT is innovation...and successful too. Frankly, I'd like to see a little more of EVE in ED now. Mining without having to cargo scoop every few seconds. More intuitive chat and communication (Ran into people the other day that didn't even know that others were still playing ED online...). But what I'd really like to see, is the adaptation of a player-driven economy. We mine. We build. We sell. Some star systems I've explored, VERY far from Sol, have no stations, yet would probably have plenty of interesting things to do if we could build stations out there.

I've been enjoying ED greatly, but I'd like more to do than haul NPC stuff from station to station, blow up wanted persons at nav beacons, and jump into friendship (That's what it sounds like!! I swear!) drive every few minutes and spam my adv discovery scanner....

 

[Insomnia]

Starting to think you are just a whiner now, you may enlighten me how you see the two mentioned games, by you, do not lean heavily upon old gameplay and old methods of playing a game.

Well you seem to have an opinion about what makes a game profitable or "do-able" in todays industry. That is why I am asking.

I really wonder how you think games like Crusader Kings and EUS can be massivly profitable with that outlook on the industry.

Sorry if i come off as a bit blunt you answer none of my questions unless i ask them twice.

Oh no sir I'm not whining at all. You STILL miss out the fact that I still love the game lol.

Crusader Kings is a no for me. EUS?
It's ok if you're asking, I don't mind. Keep it civilized though and don't start saying I'm talking out of my butt haha. The thread was really cool reading up untill page 5. It's really interesting to see all those posts about thwt made the previous games good and sometimes even better than ED.

 

[Gimi]

Try the original "Mafia" game... set in "The City of Lost Heaven", it's basically GTA pre-WW2.

Thank you, I'm taking a look tonight.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

closer to the home of GTA, isnt LA noire along those lines (I have had it for years and not got around to firing it up yet - I have it on pc and xbox.. DOH!.

 

[Flashgordon83]

I meant ETS (Eurotruck simulator)
Well im sorry anyway.
I think the whole "old gameplay" argument is completely bogus (i supported that myself for a couple of years). And i just get tired to hear it repeated all the time. Old gameplay is here to stay and always have been, the only kind of "new" thing, gameplay wise, on the horizon is VR, but even that has been done before.

I just sigh when journalists say that "Oh it's good but the gameplay is old!" (for example wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity etc) on one page and on the other says "Oh this is so good!" (for example CoD games, Gears of war, witcher etc).

 

[Greyhawk]

Although 1984 Elite was groundbreaking, the 2014 Elite is much more time consuming to make. You cant get away with a few bytes to store an entire ship now. You need 3D modellers, artists, animators and so on. You cant get away with a simple polyhedral ship with a square in it for a station. You need a fully lit, detailed, almost real 3D model.

In 1984, there were several galaxies - all of which were essentially the same system. One star, one planet and one station. The economy and chance of a fight changed but that was about it. Fast forward to 2014 and now you have exponentially more systems to explore, correctly modelled with over a hundred objects in some of the systems. Given the bigger playground, to me the really disappointing aspect of ED is that this playground is massively under utilised. Its like having a fun fair the size of texas and the only decent ride is a few swings and roundabouts in the top 1 mile square part of it.

The universe is empty, devoid of life. There is just nothing there.

ED failed here - it needed things to find in the black such as derelict ships, strange anomalies, any number of which could have been randomly generated and placed in a system. This is one thing, in my opinion, that has stayed firmly in 1984 - the lack of life in the universe. Its also not even persistent (the X series all have fully persistent universes - pretty old game now).

Looks like ED are concentrating entirely on the habitable zones right now. With powerplay coming it should open up gameplay more. I hope in a future update they turn their attention outward - I mean just look at the excitement that DB generated by giving the vaguest hint there was more out there than rock belts, planets and stars.

 

[Samosa]

This seem quite outrageous as the industry (and its croud) has changed dramatically over the past 30 years, and the average gamer demands a whole lot more than a game from '84.

Here's the thing. When one wanted to create a game in 1984, there really wasn't much address space available - typically between 32 and 48K. This means that the merits of a game must be in the game itself, not in textures, audio, and so on.

On the other hand, more modern games often revolve around how pretty they look - and hopefully there's something mildly entertaining to do for achievements.

Of course people want ED to be Elite! The gameplay was fantastic and gripping - we spent hours (and hours and hours) playing the damn thing. One's mind fills in the gaps between the wireframe.

Thus, ED, being Elite with extra bits thrown in now that we have Internet connectivity, is just about right - or at least a fantastic new beginning.

 

[Colonel North]

Hey all!

I've been playing Elite Dangerous since the start of 2015 but became curious about ED at the end of last year as I just wanted a cool space game.
I had no idea there were previous Elite games. Especially not all the way from 1984. I was only three years by that time and the only game I had tried was Super Mario.

What gets me slightly troubled is that many people seem to compare the original game to ED.
This seem quite outrageous as the industry (and its croud) has changed dramatically over the past 30 years, and the average gamer demands a whole lot more than a game from '84.
On Facebook and on other social networks, I see tons of comments from people claiming refunds because the game simply is too 'simple' in its design.

Can it be that Elite Dangerous wants to be too much like its predecessor?
Or is this just my misconception of what the franchise is all about?

I envy you! I'm old enough to remember and have played the original.
After all the years my memory is a bit vague... but I reckon what makes the game good now was the same as back then.
The 'sandbox' open style play was a revolution over the basic platform games of the time.

 

[TriumphANT]

One's mind fills in the gaps between the wireframe.

My nomination for QOTD

 

[Pendra]

There were gaps in the wireframe? I thought all the ships had adaptive camo, which is black in space, of course.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Elite was the first game I truly became a slave to. At the age of 11-12 I found the game on my friends fathers 286. At first I did not understand it but it was fun, but hard. I could not much English and for a 12 year old it was pretty advanced. We did not know how to save or scoop cargo, but steadily we played and discovered the secrets of Elite and I was hooked. In the end I got the game on a 5 quarter floppy disk and my step father copied it over to a 3.5 floppy disk. Then I could play it on an old Toshiba Portable computer as he was an engineer. This was in 90-91. Man its a long time ago. And when Frontier and First Encounters came out for the Amiga I jumped on them like a starving zombie They were great games, but the combat part was not what I was used to. When I heard about Elite Dangerous I jumped on the kick starter immediately and the rest is history. Though I haven´t played the game as much as I wish for I still feel its refreshing and fun to get back into the cockpit. And the constant updates and patches keeps the game fresh and interesting. The difference between the first Elite and E.D must be that there are no limits to what you can put into a game anymore. You can constantly patch and update a game, so a game is never truly finished in a way. Especially online games. So the limit is only our fantasy and the will of Frontier to implement it for us fans. I think we will see the full potential of Elite Dangerous when first person is implemented and planetary landings. If Elite is great now, it will become Epic in due time.

 

[Killerhurtz]

Being one of these old gamers that played E84 and later, as well as a huge array of games in other genres over the years, I find myself agreeing with both camps. Yes, a game built on something from before MUST strongly resemble it to "carry on the torch", so to speak. But at the same time, if the innovation is so lacking in the new title, then it might as well be just a refreshed re-release (See Final Fantasy Origins on PSX).

E84 was one of the major influences for EVE Online. Now THAT is innovation...and successful too. Frankly, I'd like to see a little more of EVE in ED now. Mining without having to cargo scoop every few seconds. More intuitive chat and communication (Ran into people the other day that didn't even know that others were still playing ED online...). But what I'd really like to see, is the adaptation of a player-driven economy. We mine. We build. We sell. Some star systems I've explored, VERY far from Sol, have no stations, yet would probably have plenty of interesting things to do if we could build stations out there.

I've been enjoying ED greatly, but I'd like more to do than haul NPC stuff from station to station, blow up wanted persons at nav beacons, and jump into friendship (That's what it sounds like!! I swear!) drive every few minutes and spam my adv discovery scanner....

Eve is the daddy atm.
ED has a long way to go to catch up.

They should blatently rip off ahem take inspiration from some aspect imo.
Social , Market , Mining , Fitting , Missions , Scanning , Probing , Persistence all handled much better in Eve off the top of my head.

 

[Greyhawk]

Would hate it if they made it more like Eve. Elite's universe isnt about griefing, ganking and killing for the sake of killing despite the small number of idiots that do it. Eve actively encourages this.

However I would take one thing from Eve, effective security because Elite has absolutely none.

 

[Red Dirt Nurse]

How about GTA6 to be about vintage 1920's car chases at 15mph? .

<grins> There is something delightfully ludicrous about that concept!

Makes me think of L.A. Noir. A more developed story than GTA IV (at the time), but had the same sort of feel, but in that 1940s world. I kinda liked it.

As you never played Elite you will never understand it.

That's a pretty pretentious thing to say to the OP.

Anyone who has read the few posts I've contributed to this forum will know that, I too am cresting the hill of middle age, and was a big fan of the original ED when it originally came out. However, unlike my cohort herein, I have elected to relinquish the past and embrace ED as a game in its own right. Too many people feel that, because they got in early on the kickstarter, that FD owes them something - more correctly, they feel entitled to more than the latecomers, the Steam players, the "unwashed masses".

That's in my humble opinion - the only thing FD owes you, is a game. Enjoy it or hate it, but remember this - Elite: Dangerous will be someone else's nostalgia some day.

George Ball said, "Nostalgia is a seductive liar".

And for our OP, who had the balls to start off this thread - in which, I might add, are many valid contributions - irrespective of their take on the topic - I would suggest that he/she not seek out the original Elite game. You'll only be underwhelmed.

If you must, then watch the gameplay here...

Spoiler

[video=youtube;8IYQvxtOlcE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IYQvxtOlcE[/video]

 

[Insomnia]

I have read through over 60 posts here and something that I don't think has been really explained.

That is the impact of the 84 Elite game.

Someone has already stated, E84 was all packed into so little RAM space. (Today there is more RAM in a dish washer, then in the ZX81) With this in mind, you have to go back and remember, what was around at the time. In 84, we saw the 1st Tetris on PC and it was big. Very big! Also Pac land, on PC, and Pac-man, was in all the arcades, again, massive! Another was 3D Bomb alley, again, it came from the amusement arcades to the PC and these games were big, people (kids) would cue to play them in the arcades. Then along came Elite, on our own little PCs. This was an open game, free roaming, go anywhere, not tunnelled, 8 universes to roam, good knows how many systems in each universe. stations, ranging from corporate state to anarchy. With combat, trading and the odd thargoid popping up to challenge your day.

Today, we expect more, more content, more options, bigger guns and better ships. We have seen it all before, the choices are almost limitless. But at the time; the time of asteroids, ping pong and looking into a view finder to play tank commander in an arcade; the option, of visiting 1000s, of systems, with the chance of building up your credits, to buy better weapons, so you 'could' take on the thargoids, in an almost unlimited number of systems, was more that just massive, it dictated the future of gaming. Many game since have not had that depth. Mission based, tunnelled, pre-defined plots; you have to follow. To many of the day, Elite, was too hard, too much effort, just too big too get there Pac-man, fed minds around.

We cannot go back, or more importantly, send those back, who were not there, did not see how little choice we had in those days. We look at the free roam of say GTA, amazing, but if you ask today's gamer, to play GTA1, top down etc, they would say, it's boring, crap etc etc. GTA1, came out 13 years after Elite and in many ways, came no where near close to Elites depth and range of play.

Yes, ED is a refection of Elite84, something people have been waiting for and some like myself, thought, would never see the light of day. Worth the wait, I think so, but too compare it to what is about today? That is up to you, just understand, in its day, it was the benchmark.

Arry.

Thank you! Have a little rep.
Great writing and I agree 100% with what you are saying.

I can't be sent back to 1984 and see and experience the huge impact Elite had on the market.

-------------

I like the fact that the game is extremely unforgiving. Docking and unlocking has never been an issue for me as I'm very relaxed and don't rush into it.

 

[ruksak]

Actually I like the Braben´s decision to release the core of Elite as a new title Elite Dangerous. Of course, it is pretty similar to the first version (year 1984), but that´s very important decision for future expansions and releases from longterm point of view, especially regarding the audience (!dedicated customers!). No need to rush... It only shows what people think about this game. It´s not such a risky business as you can see by SC. Chris Roberts´s project is now so huge, but on the same time nowhere near to physical virtual experience you can get here in Elite Dangerous. The TOP idea and invention from 1984 is actually (like it or not) the power in Elite Dangerous - that´s a simple fact. It is a great game already with a huge potential in future. The truth is, that only people they know what the original idea is all about, can understand... If I had to bet my money on David or Chris, David is my instant choice because of that!

There are tons of people they prefer this style of gameplay elements and David´s vision. We can share his vision in ELITE Dangerous and future expansions and I find this simply brilliant and exciting indeed. I was a 12 years old boy, now I´m back in future again and can play Elite Dangerous with my own 7 years old boy, what a great gaming opportunity on a PC!

 

[dannysquid]

I can't be sent back to 1984 and see and experience the huge impact Elite had on the market.

I still remember seeing an ad for ELITE and thinking the screenshots couldn't possibly be real. The only other game that similarly astonished me was KNIGHT LORE. It felt like the people writing them must have supernatural powers!

I'm not sure what you could do today that would have similar bar-raising impact.

 

[Pendra]

I stopped judging games on "Future potential" around the Star Trek Online.

Anyway, can you share the vision how you see it? For me, the vision of Elite seems to be shifting.
Earlier, it was the "you are small and insignificant in a HUGE universe". Trade or kill or explore until your eyes bleed, that would not make a dent on the galaxy as we know it.
Players: Why would I want to do trade, kill or explore anyway?
DB: For the Elite insignia and a metric ton of ebucks, of course, like in 1984.
Players: No stuff, no eyecandy, story. That is dumb even for 5 year olds. What is there to do?
DB: You can blaze your own trail and make your own stories
Players: Like, how?
DB: We have missions and you have your imagination.
Players: For 60 euros, I want more than my own imagination and broken missions.
DB: ... disappears ...
FD: 1.3 Powerplay, complete mission system rework. Now you are a power to behold your decisions influence the whole galaxy.

So what about the small and insignificant vision?