Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted! #3

[KimBo]

I think it would be nice if the Developers starting this thread reflected on the many negative responses to PP. Dedicated players are spending time explaining why they(we) believe PP is a real bad idea and in reality conflicting with other existing game mechanics, and based on replies from the author it does seem to be ignored completely.

I know that time and resources has been spend on the PP concept, and it is never an easy decision to stop development projects good people has spend time and money on planning and selling internally/externally. Too many money has been spend, and it will take a lot of courage to flush everything and start over. Though from my perspective, this would be the right thing to do. I have not counted negative/positive responses on this thread, but I am willing to bet what the result would be. And people are dropping ED due to PP.

Personally, I do not buy the argument: "If you do not like PP, just don't use it". It is a big part of the game now, and as long as resources are used on this concept other parts of the game will not be improved/changed. So to me, it is more like "If you do not like PP, play another space sim". Which I guess is a real option these days...

I think there are some extremely good arguments in this thread, and I do believe it would be in place for FD to return the reflections on this. The title of the thread contains the words "Feedback wanted": Well, you got your feedback, what do you intend to use it for?

 

[Krieger]

<snip>...
It doesn't turn into anything. Don't pledge and it is same old Elite.
<snip>...

No it's not the same old Elite, that's one of the points CaptainKremmen and I and others are trying to make. E.g:
- non-PP players lose their carefully built up influence with minor factions when the PP steamroller comes to town,
- non-PP players see the effects of the aggressive and suspicious atmosphere among CMDRs that PP fosters,
- Galnet news is dominated by stupid soap opera stories,
- community goals are few and far between and player groups around them fall apart,
- building PP took a lot of developer hours but long standing bugs in Elite were not fixed and the much anticipated AI improvements could have been finished by now,
- etc... (more to find in the forums).

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

No it's not the same old Elite, that's one of the points CaptainKremmen and I and others are trying to make. E.g:
- non-PP players lose their carefully built up influence with minor factions when the PP steamroller comes to town,
- non-PP players see the effects of the aggressive and suspicious atmosphere among CMDRs that PP fosters,
- Galnet news is dominated by stupid soap opera stories,
- community goals are few and far between and player groups around them fall apart,
- building PP took a lot of developer hours but long standing bugs in Elite were not fixed and the much anticipated AI improvements could have been finished by now,
- etc... (more to find in the forums).

You wont ever convince him, he doesnt play PP and i'm not even sure he plays Elite because if he did he would know damn well how PP effects the base game and player.

He's one of only two people on my ignore list because he's here to troll people who have genuine issues by telling you there are no issues or you need to play something different or its not the game they think it is etc etc. This is despite FDev acknowledging the issues with PP, hence the fact we are on MKIII of this thread.

 

[rckstr]

Polls: nothing wrong with them, I've used a fair few myself, they can be useful. However, I just want to point out that the sample sizes are, in general, *very, very small* compared to the player base, as well as being vulnerable to artificial skewing for various reasons. So whilst I, for example, do take the Powerplay poll seriously (hey, we're having these cool discussions, right?) don't think I can use it as a definitive "voice of the people".

I agree the the participants in the "Do you PP poll" are way lower than the player base. But you will never get everyones opinion. That's what surveys are for, you ask your clients questions about your product and they rate you. The number of votes in the thread is a pretty good sample size. Would it have been somewhere around 100-200 votes i would agree with you, but now we have way more and the trend shows- it is not going in your favour.
Even a well known fabricator of pills against headaches runs an TV advertisement where they include the information that 93% of the consumers would recommend this product. Below that is written *representative survey with 242 participants.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You wont ever convince him, he doesnt play PP and i'm not even sure he plays Elite because if he did he would know damn well how PP effects the base game and player.

He's one of only two people on my ignore list because he's here to troll people who have genuine issues by telling you there are no issues or you need to play something different or its not the game they think it is etc etc. This is despite FDev acknowledging the issues with PP, hence the fact we are on MKIII of this thread.

No one says they are no people with genuine issues. Question is - are those issues are global. for most of the time they are not. Now, if we can accept it that there will be some bugs, and sometimes they will take time to grasp big concepts and get used to them... Nice. However when hyperbole is used and claimed that issues affect everyone, and they should do that and do that...you lose me there.

You can claim factual superiority and then go on how it is all about emotions. It is either first, or second.

 

[rckstr]

Hello Commander GJ51!

I don't think we publish numbers. But hey, like I said, we want to make Poweplay better, we want to address issues being raised and we do try to listen, and when I see polls with clear results, it certainly means something. Although I've said before, and still stand by, the statement that Powerplay isn't necessarily for everyone, clearly I'd like to see more Commanders enjoying it - I make no bones about that! That's why we love feedback and find it genuinely useful.

So you really want to put in precious development time for some "content" that just around 20% like and the rest complains about its con's and bad designed mechanics instead of "fixing" things we all have to deal with like instancing issues, BGS issues, issues in the interdiction mini game and so on? And all that for content that was never demanded by anyone of the playerbase though you still have a large list of things in the DDF people would die for to see in game?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I agree the the participants in the "Do you PP poll" are way lower than the player base. But you will never get everyones opinion. That's what surveys are for, you ask your clients questions about your product and they rate you. The number of votes in the thread is a pretty good sample size. Would it have been somewhere around 100-200 votes i would agree with you, but now we have way more and the trend shows- it is not going in your favour.
Even a well known fabricator of pills against headaches runs an TV advertisement where they include the information that 93% of the consumers would recommend this product. Below that is written *representative survey with 242 participants.

Professional polling is done very carefully choosing sample base. This poll is not already biased, but it is done place where rather consistent crowd resides. Poll also don't give possibility to answer fain grained answer (reasons for yes or no), etc.

Also as Sandro said, it is not meant to play by everyone and even majority. CGs are not done by majority of players. No one seems to complain about that aspect.

 

[rckstr]

this is very similar to how the DDF worked.

nothing in this thread is guaranteed or promised.

This is so true. Let me ask- why do you gather community ideas and opinions if you don't plan to include them when it is a feature that many people like and it is not too complicated.

 

[rckstr]

Professional polling is done very carefully choosing sample base. This poll is not already biased, but it is done place where rather consistent crowd resides. Poll also don't give possibility to answer fain grained answer (reasons for yes or no), etc.

Also as Sandro said, it is not meant to play by everyone and even majority. CGs are not done by majority of players. No one seems to complain about that aspect.

Like i have said earlier- To every Dev suggestions made add a poll. If there is a majority against it we can discuss why. If the majority likes how it is, there is nothing to discuss except some fine tuning maybe.
This game has a large time for development. It will probably a "different" game in 2 or 3 years. But i don't see the reason to create content that the majority dislikes and take the "not every feature is for everyone" excuse. The goal should be that the majority likes new feature even it is "not a thing for everyone".
The complaints about CG's might be lower because a lot more people like CG's compared to those that dislike them. Also CG's don't take such a large impact on everyone like PP does.

 

[znôrt]

my 50c:

Favour

yet another workaround on a workaround, got it.

Powerplay Flag

really?

Up/Down Vote

seems pretty exploitable (but power mgmt is already chaotic anyway)
besides, that's in no way a proper communication channel. don't present it as that.

your architecture is not your players business', but it should suit what your players want. they're wanting communication tools. fix the arch, or else don't produce content that critically depends on good communication tools you cannot provide.

Freedom Fighters

this sounds cool.
the part about *substantial* danger (emphasis yours) made me giggle

More Powerful Ethos versus Government Effect

no opinion on this. wondering how many players do care that much.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Like i have said earlier- To every Dev suggestions made add a poll. If there is a majority against it we can discuss why. If the majority likes how it is, there is nothing to discuss except some fine tuning maybe.
This game has a large time for development. It will probably a "different" game in 2 or 3 years. But i don't see the reason to create content that the majority dislikes and take the "not every feature is for everyone" excuse. The goal should be that the majority likes new feature even it is "not a thing for everyone".
The complaints about CG's might be lower because a lot more people like CG's compared to those that dislike them. Also CG's don't take such a large impact on everyone like PP does.

CG was trashed heavily as game breaking when feature arrived. I know, I was here. It's deja vu with PP. Also seems very big number of people want FD improving and fixing PP, not ditching it. A bit of obsession about "why u no DDF feaures" topic if you ask me.

 

[jadefriendly]

.
- Build assets. Tons of assets. Low polygon stuff that is quick to churn out. Boxes, crates, equipment, tools, generators, radar dishes, vehicles, shuttles (between station and planet), probes, satellites. Scatter them all over the place: around station landing platforms, floating in space. Have repair crews/shuttles crawling over station surfaces. A lot of this stuff can be re-used for planetary missions and ship interiors.
- Lights + motion = life. Scatter more billboards around the station interior (not just the docks). Put blinking navigation lights on ships and stations. Light up the buildings inside habitat rings. Have flickering lights suggestive of welding around the station exteriors (repair crews, remember?).
- Add voices for docking requests accepted/denied. Add radio chatter near stations.
.
Then the bigger stuff:
- really focus on trading mechanics as this is a core part of the game as much as the flight dynamics --which are excellent, BTW. Allow people to analyse prices at nearby systems for an item; track its price fluctuations. This is important because a galaxy which focuses solely on combat and destruction is simply not credible. How many ships and lives destroyed every day? Where do all those expensive ships come from? What pilot would sign up to living in a continuous war zone? There has to be more to life out there: ships and pilots just going about their productive business every day, making a living. Real life is not all "kill, kill, kill!". For the same reason:
- add some mining love: recycle the CQC mining outpost and put it at high extraction sites where people can dump/sell their ores. Add a bulletin board where miners can post their (mis)information: "There's gold in them there rings!" etc.
- add some chatter love: player-postable bulletin boards at stations and outposts recruiting for groups, wings, missions, information. Add chat rooms at stations where players can discuss deals, exchange credits (later with players walking around ships and stations, these can be turned into actual pub environments). Get players to create the world-building background!
.
This is the stuff you should focus on. Not PP.
-

absolutely, completely, totally spot on. Devs - please listen to this guy!

 

[rckstr]

In your example, the wing that had turned the Powerplay flag ON to undermine would always be at risk from everyone in the system they were undermining, thanks to Powerplay ships and the WANTED status they would get. This is realistically zero change from the current implementation (fact is, if I'm undermining in a system and I see a combat capable ship on my sensors, I already assume that it could be a bounty hunter out to profit from my demise).

Not from everyone, only from opposing factions. That's how it should be expected.
The Powerplay ships? You talk about the NPC's in opposing factions? Those that might be a danger to fresh players with weaker ships though David once stated he would not recommend PP to fresh players?
Also what Viajero is pointing out- you would create a scenario where people could switch off their flag and attack people with the flag turned on though they are pledged to the same power usually.

- - - Updated - - -

In conclusion, for those folk who dislike Powerplay: that's fine, but there's no need to dislike it purely on the grounds that it is Elite. It's not. It's a bit of Elite, like trading, minor factions, the crime system etc.

The impact of PP on everyone is bigger than the impact of trading, minor factions, etc. So it is not just like the other "facets".

 

[rckstr]

CG was trashed heavily as game breaking when feature arrived. I know, I was here. It's deja vu with PP. Also seems very big number of people want FD improving and fixing PP, not ditching it. A bit of obsession about "why u no DDF feaures" topic if you ask me.

Honestly i can not remember about people trashing CG's. Maybe i just have missed it. But the big difference between CG's and PP is the impact on everyone. In a CG you choose a side for a certain amount of time and except in CZ's generated by a CG your alignment can not be recognized.
I agree that PP shouldn't be ditched. It has great potential and that's why i am pro on the idea of PP itself. But the current implementation makes me (and obviously enough more people) complain about it and i have the opinion that resources should be directed on topics inside PP where the complaints hit instead of adding new stuff in an untouched environment. If changes in how undermining/fortifying etc works are made that convince a lot more people than now we can talk about additions to the mechanics.

 

[tapion]

Being interdicted by "rival power" hit squads in your own Power HQ.

Sounds like fun - a bit of risk, a bit of pew-pew. But...

• If the attacking ships are idiot-level NPCs, it's no challenge - so BORING.
• If it happens too frequently, it becomes ANNOYING. It is also IMMERSION-BREAKING, as there is no sense in rival power hit squads roaming free in your HQ system.
• If you are given a reward for successfully eliminating a rival power hit squad, great - you can at least gain some ADVANCEMENT. But to gain no benefit whatsoever makes the exercise POINTLESS.

+1000000, totally agree.

Bielonti, from star to Ahmed Dock. 1 minute. 3 NPC interdictions... pffffffff...

 

[CMDR Atriden]

My thoughts on Favour system:
I don't believe it is necessary to have an additional reward system in place. It will just make a complicated system even more complicated. However I do believe that
it is necessary to change the merit system, so that players with limited time can enjoy some of the top benefits.
I would DO one of these 3 things or combine them:
1. Decrease merit decay. 25 % each week and no merits carrying over after 4 weeks is to harsh. I would say 20% for each week and no limit how long it keeps reducing merits earned in previous weeks.
2. Lowering the merits needed for each rank, especially rank 4 to rank 5.
3. Increase merits obtained by fortifying, expansion and undermining. Perhaps special events that can give bonus merits.

My thoughts in Powerplay Flag.
Great idea. I support that you need to dock to activate or deactivate Powerplay status, so that players mid flight can't change it on a whim. Loosing all benefits seems reasonable. I am not sure if there needs to be a cool down.

I hope the input will helpful.

Best regards Atriden

 

[Stanis]

Just one thing. Very important thing.

A true procedural quest generator. Something awesome, like the other aspects of your game.

And if you want to be better than the other games, try a procedural story/adventure generator. This is the challenge.

That's all.

 

[Lheim]

Caught up on thread - I'll also agree with the general sentiment that PP is far too hostile. What you're simulating is an all-out mercenary interstellar war.. and it's just not possible to believe the political rulers of the major factions could be engaged in this without there being actual all out interstellar war. Every power at war constantly with every other power needs to stop.. I mean, in contested systems? Okay, sure. But why the heck with a utopian guy attack a federation guy on sight anywhere in the galaxy? What about the concept that this is a 'shadow war', and that generally peace prevails between the major powers and there certainly isn't a civil war going on inside any of them? Where are the alliances and general understandings?

"Hostile" is far too limiting, it cuts down the size of the 'bubble' to a fraction.. and it's unbelievable. If the solution to 'Hostile' is being able to turn it off at will I'm all for that - but as of now, that's kinda a good solution to a bad problem, not a good solution to a good problem. I like the idea of repping and flying a flag, I do, somehow - but let's just say I shouldn't have to turn it off to engage in peaceful trading in anywhere but a genuinely open-hostilities kind of area. So systems where there's active undermining going on? I can believe those would be dangerous. Not so much the uncontested systems shared between two empire supporting factions.

Also, what the heck is up with a 'hostile' player being unallowed to defend themselves from attack?

 

[nexxo]

Just one thing. Very important thing.

A true procedural quest generator. Something awesome, like the other aspects of your game.

And if you want to be better than the other games, try a procedural story/adventure generator. This is the challenge.

That's all.

^^^ What he says. It makes more sense to focus on a few real "wow" features.
.
I've seem things that you wouldn't believe. A vast PG galaxy. I could sit for an jour just scrolling through the galaxy, zooming in and out, just looking at all all those stars! Look at the size of this game!
.
Or the space scenes you come across, exploring. Floating amongst the rocks in the rings of a distant planet, watching its three suns coming over the horizon, breaking through the stellar dust. Seeing mass coronal ejections of red giants as you skim the surface with a fuel scoop, hearing the winds buffet your craft. The thrill of discovering an earth-like with rings against the myriad brightness of a local star cluster.
.
And then there's the sound: detailed, lush, immersive. A real work of art.
.
The flight dynamics are spot-on. Fights that are sphincter-tightening, edge-of-the-seat exchanges in which every edge counts and the outcome cannot be taken for granted.
.
All these moments will be lost in the superficial mediocrity of PP and rushed artificial game mechanics, like tears in the rain...
.

.
...time to die.

 

[tooterfish]

- Build assets. Tons of assets. Low polygon stuff that is quick to churn out. Boxes, crates, equipment, tools, generators, radar dishes, vehicles, shuttles (between station and planet), probes, satellites. Scatter them all over the place: around station landing platforms, floating in space. Have repair crews/shuttles crawling over station surfaces. A lot of this stuff can be re-used for planetary missions and ship interiors.
- Lights + motion = life. Scatter more billboards around the station interior (not just the docks). Put blinking navigation lights on ships and stations. Light up the buildings inside habitat rings. Have flickering lights suggestive of welding around the station exteriors (repair crews, remember?).
- Add voices for docking requests accepted/denied. Add radio chatter near stations.
.
Then the bigger stuff:
- really focus on trading mechanics as this is a core part of the game as much as the flight dynamics --which are excellent, BTW. Allow people to analyse prices at nearby systems for an item; track its price fluctuations. This is important because a galaxy which focuses solely on combat and destruction is simply not credible. How many ships and lives destroyed every day? Where do all those expensive ships come from? What pilot would sign up to living in a continuous war zone? There has to be more to life out there: ships and pilots just going about their productive business every day, making a living. Real life is not all "kill, kill, kill!". For the same reason:
- add some mining love: recycle the CQC mining outpost and put it at high extraction sites where people can dump/sell their ores. Add a bulletin board where miners can post their (mis)information: "There's gold in them there rings!" etc.
- add some chatter love: player-postable bulletin boards at stations and outposts recruiting for groups, wings, missions, information. Add chat rooms at stations where players can discuss deals, exchange credits (later with players walking around ships and stations, these can be turned into actual pub environments). Get players to create the world-building background!
.
This is the stuff you should focus on. Not PP.
-

Strongly agree.

Just one thing. Very important thing.

A true procedural quest generator. Something awesome, like the other aspects of your game.

And if you want to be better than the other games, try a procedural story/adventure generator. This is the challenge.

That's all.

Strongly agree as well, although this one is much easier said than done.

Also, why did you burn Shireen?