NO to "third party tools" for ED

[K M Butler]

Disagree with OP
1) Play your own way. Blaze your own trail.
2) No different than using a Fodors to plan your holiday, or Standard & Poors for investing, or Consumer Reports for household purchases.
3) A logical extension of the OP's point would be to "say no" to Headtracker, HOTAS or Oculus, and insist everybody use keyboard only.
4) As Slopeys and Thrudds (as 2 examples of many) are community supported they are, in fact, a form of emergent gameplay.
5) I find it rather disrespectful, if not outright offensive, that somebody should even *think* of complaining about my purple drapes, because they clash with their yellow ones across the way.
Disclosure: I fly a sidey, out of choice. I have since last October. I don't do anything resembling regular routes. I have a freagle, never used it. Toying with getting a courier when Horizons drops. If I get a round tuit. Dedicated traders = meh, big ships= bleah. YMMV

 

[Marra Morgan]

I use the Coriolis shipbuilder for planning builds before I go spending money on them. The stats and stuff are better presented than in the in-game Outfitting screen, I reckon.

I don't use 3rd party trading tools though - I'm a professional smuggler with a modicum of self-respect!

 

[Jaeger]

getting some tips from friends about trading routes is one thing,

Yes, that thing is normal human economic interaction, and the basis for commerce.

* I don't like such tools in general, for any game. It takes away challenge and mystery. And what's worse - young players are introduced to them asap and made believe that it is a norm;

It's not.

Yes it is, it is the norm.. AND THAT IS PATENTLY OBVIOUS... that's why kids expect to see it, it's the very first thing a person thinks of. You particular brand of learned helplessness is the aberration here. There should be a plethora of tools and enabling technology in game, that there isn't is the only reason third party sites exist.

If ED was fully fleshed out instead of being a B class half finished game, this would be a non issue.

If you want to see emergent game-play, you need to accommodate basic economics.

 

[Roybe]

I use the Coriolis shipbuilder for planning builds before I go spending money on them. The stats and stuff are better presented than in the in-game Outfitting screen, I reckon.

I don't use 3rd party trading tools though - I'm a professional smuggler with a modicum of self-respect!

There are other players who have other ideas on what fun is. And I am certain they have more than a modicum of self respect.

 

[Marra Morgan]

There are other players who have other ideas on what fun is. And I am certain they have more than a modicum of self respect.

Absolutely!
But I was on about my self respect.

 

[Tiamat]

Complaints that third party tools shouldn't be used because they are "cheaty". Check.

Complaints that the in-game tools should be better so we don't need third party tools. Check.

404 - Logic not found.

 

[Jaeger]

He specifically mentions he isn't judging, everyone is free to do their own thing, it is just a suggestion people may consider.

Yeah, but no. It's like saying to someone "No offence but.. " and then have given a 'pre-apology' being outrageously offensive.

Bitter, yes because promises were made. Bait and switch occurred, and expectations have not been met.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Complaints that third party tools shouldn't be used because they are "cheaty". Check.

Complaints that the in-game tools should be better so we don't need third party tools. Check.

404 - Logic not found.

lol

1) I think what most are asking for ingame tools wise is a CMDRs log to record our OWN flight path as well as stuff WE bought and sold along with profits etc as well as if there is a black market etc etc etc .

2) I also think what some are complaining about are tools which store data that everyone else has done publicly, which ultimately collapses any trade routes quickly.

BUT most of the tools out there which do point 1) also do point 2) as well........ and once you start using said tool, it is very hard to resist the temptation to go to the dark side

 

[JeffRyan]

On a serious note in general I agree with the OP. Tools, especially trading make it far too easy to make money.

Where I disagree with the OP is his claim that 'this isn't the norm'. It is. Now.

You and me buddy belong to a different generation. The whole 'let's search the internet to solve my problem' generation are the new norm online. Our generation started it (yahoo>search>baldurs gate walkthrough) and theirs have finished it.

This isn't the world we were born into, but it is the one that's here. In short: That's the way it is.

 

[shadragon]

Not everyone plays Iron Man, or trades, or explores or uses third party tools. They are viable options you may (or may not) decide to utilize. I get stuck with missions and issues all the time and reference the forums and third party tools to get me moving again.

At the end of the day, you play the way you want to and I'll play the way that works best for me. There's no overall advantage to any method IMHO.

 

[Khelder]

I'm a little bit late to this party and I have no popcorn. But I’ll throw my opinion in here.

It didn't take me long in my ED journey to start checking out 3rd party tools - sites and apps. I loved them. I guess it doesn't help that I'm a developer. My main focus in my profession is to make systems more efficient through software - to take basic data or a process and make something powerful out of it. But apart from this viewpoint, here are some other points I'd like to make.

Sometimes it's about time. I often don't have a lot of time to play ED. Congratulations to those that do. But I generally only get an hour or two here and there. I want to progress in experience, credits, ships, ranks. To me, the gameplay and immersion is an important part, but it needs to be balanced. I don't want to game my way forward. An example of this I can think of is advice I saw recently in the forums with regard to faster rank progression. The advice was to go to Tun and throw cash at the charity missions. When they run out, log off, log back in, rinse/repeat. I want to increase in rank, but that is ridiculous. So I won't be doing that. But I also don't have time to randomly stop at countless stations recording prices for myself when I could be using that time to actually do a couple of trade runs.

I believe it is realistic. I've heard plenty of comments from purists who rile against the docking computer or scoff at suggestions of auto-pilot. Really? What year is this supposed to be? And we seriously don't have an in-system auto-pilot? And there wouldn't be a source of system commodity prices easily accessible to traders? Really?

Community. Community you ask? This is what probably grabbed me the most about the system data and trading tools. Let me start to explain with a separate example.

I love the idea of the Fuel Rats. Awesome bunch. Not because they're handy - I think I'd be to ashamed if I actually managed to run out of fuel. But because they bring community to the game. Here are a bunch of cmdrs who volunteer their time and resources to help others. Their group is something that has formed over and above the stock gameplay of ED. So in ED, you can blaze your own trail. You can be a pirate, trader, bounty hunter, etc... and you can be a Fuel Rat. It has added a whole new element to the game for those who want to pursue it.

Now I look at system/trading data sites and tools. To me, it's not (just) about maximising my trading efforts. All of this data is crowdsourced. It is collected by fellow cmdrs into something that is useful to all. And I can be a part of that! Some nights I actually found it quite interesting to seek out systems where data wasn't available so that I could fill the blanks. I was a data collector for the benefit of others.

So my rambling comes to this: I am building an elephant. Yes, I love the idea of 3rd party tools so much that I am building my own. I plan for it to be awesome. Eventually (hopefully) I will release it to the community. It would be great if some people loved it. I also accept that others won't - for various reasons.

Here is my vision (don't take this as a feature promise - just imagining).. I really like the idea of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Love the book, but more specifically talking about the fictional book itself. A collection of information amassed from numerous authors to make travelling the galaxy a (hopefully) better experience. Ultimately, I would love a system that can bring together trade data, system data, reviews, notices, photos, whatever.

• I'm near X and I have time for a quick trade or two. What profitable trades are close by?
• Oh, trade route A to B looks awesome and it's not too far away.
• Wait! There's been a bunch of reports about recent piracy around B. I'm not kitted out to handle that. I might pick something else.
• Oooh. A to C is almost as good. And look at the screenshot someone has posted at C. That could be worth checking out for the scenery alone.
• Great. Turns out C supplies those Beam Lasers I've been wanting to upgrade to. Definitely worth the trip.

A cmdr could choose to use the tools simply for his own benefit. Or he could make a profession out of sourcing and maintaining data. Or both.

Some won't like my vision. I understand and respect that. But I'm hoping some will.

 

[Armour]

Complaints that third party tools shouldn't be used because they are "cheaty". Check.

Complaints that the in-game tools should be better so we don't need third party tools. Check.

404 - Logic not found.

FDEV didn't see fit to include a list of where all the rares are. They didn't include a crowdsourced trading tool. Therefore they aren't part of the game, and are akin to artificial performance enhancers and/or insider trading. Use of them can be regarded as metagaming/cheating.

Of course, the cheats can insult those who call them on it, or they can justify their cheating to themselves. Doesn't alter the fact that they are using information their character shouldn't have in order to gain an advantage. Call it efficiency, say "that's just how it is", say "everybody does it", say "welcome to the internet" even. Still cheating.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

What are you talking about? Trading tools specifically, or all kinda of 3rd party tools. Like macro programs, teamspeak, or forums/ bounty boards too. Elite shipyard is another one that's commonly used. Is that wrong?

 

[Fangrim]

The way I used 3rd party tools was to use only my own data (offline mode).

Life is simply too short for pen and paper (I'm thinking trading here).

I used a 3rd party tool to keep track of the systems and stations I visited myself, and used a trade route function to find the most profitable route.

This way I simply cut down on a crapload of manual work, but I still had to gather all the data myself.

I don't like crowdsourced tools, as they take away my pleasure of exploring.

 

[askavir]

I have a bit of mixed feelings about 3rd party helper tools.

On one hand, I find those tools an extraordinary example of community effort, and social sharing.

On the other hand, maybe they are the reason why some players find the game a grind: because some players just do what the tools tell them to do, over and over, and end up forgetting to enjoy the game on their own.

In the end, its up to each player to choose to use them or not, and how much.

 

[newman1702]

You can use 3rd party tools without it turning into a grind. I like to mess about coriolis.io sometimes to have some fun or do some loadout ideas. Point is, I should be able to do that from the game in the first place; I should be able to store unmounted equipment I'm not currently using, and save / load build presets. I should also get all the data I get from coriolis about a specific build from in-game. Otherwise I might think the Clipper has better shields than an FDL because it's max is 7A shield generator, and FDL only a 5A. The game should tell me the MJ values, and a whole lot of other data that it currently does not. Why? Not because I want to just have a maxed out build so I can grind, but because I do enjoy the game's loadout aspects, and it should give me all the relevant info on the spot.

Likewise, the only way to track where I've been during exploring is to either fill my hard drive with screenshots or use a 3rd party tool. Most of these exist to augment areas that are lacking in the game's UI. If players use trading tools to grind more effectively, that's their decision to make. I certainly won't force them to have fun the "right" way.

 

[Jukelo]

OP, the problem is that ED is still following an obsolete way of doing things in this regard. Both the trading and outfitting in ED rely on obfuscating information to artificially increase the complexity of the game and make the player feel like they're doing something. That was pretty effective back in 84 because, as you pointed out, easy access to mass sharing of information wasn't a thing yet. Game devs could rely on the mechanics of players having to figure things out on their own empirically, which took time, time the devs could claim was legitimate playtime.

That's no longer how people play games. We no longer satisfy ourselves with that artificial complexity through obfuscation. We want depth instead. Games should be made on the premise that people will quickly figure out their inner workings, whether on their own or through a google search, so the mechanics and the way they all interact with one another have to be robust enough to survive players having free access to all that information.
Depth is designing a game well enough that the player is given many options to interact with the game, and each option leading to a different result. A well made complex and deep game will have clear rules but so many interactions between the various elements that even though the player has access to a lot of information, they would need a lot of intelligence or experience to be able to predict all outcomes.

Chess is of course the perfect example: there is nothing complicated or hidden about chess, you know everything there is to know about the game rules, you know exactly where the opponent's pieces are, and yet the depth is incredible. Experimenting with chess has nothing to do with experimenting with the economic or outfitting system in Elite. If you are smart enough, you can predict several moves in advance how a game of chess will play. You can't do that in ED because the rules are kept obscure to hide the fact they are so simple there would be very little challenge once you had them figured out.

In the same vein, EVE's economic model doesn't rely on limited information. Although there is limited information in EVE, and also many 3rd party trading tools, as well as in-game tools to analyze the markets, their model is deep enough that even with all these tools at your disposal, you will need some smarts and understanding of how real life economics work to make the most of it. And knowledge of the player-run geo-political situation which does heavily impact the economy of the game.

Since we have nothing like that in ED, and the economic model is too simple and instead only relies on hiding things from the players, we get in this situation where indeed, 3rd party trading tools become a detriment to the game as they point out how little there is to it once you're no longer constrained to archaic mechanics pulled straight from another era of gaming history.

 

[Maedhros]

You can use 3rd party tools without it turning into a grind. I like to mess about coriolis.io sometimes to have some fun or do some loadout ideas. Point is, I should be able to do that from the game in the first place; I should be able to store unmounted equipment I'm not currently using, and save / load build presets. I should also get all the data I get from coriolis about a specific build from in-game. Otherwise I might think the Clipper has better shields than an FDL because it's max is 7A shield generator, and FDL only a 5A. The game should tell me the MJ values, and a whole lot of other data that it currently does not. Why? Not because I want to just have a maxed out build so I can grind, but because I do enjoy the game's loadout aspects, and it should give me all the relevant info on the spot.

Likewise, the only way to track where I've been during exploring is to either fill my hard drive with screenshots or use a 3rd party tool. Most of these exist to augment areas that are lacking in the game's UI. If players use trading tools to grind more effectively, that's their decision to make. I certainly won't force them to have fun the "right" way.

Couldn't agree more....

 

[Crimson Kaim]

WHy should third party tools be forbidden? Or atleast disliked? They enable passivecommunication between players and there is no difference to the real world. I can't count how many services provide oppotunities to compare a flight to, let's say London. Or how many hotel comparing sites there are. The same applies for ED. On a market, you want to get the most for the cheapest price. Other commanders may have found the best offer and decide to share it. The only difference without third party tools would be that a small player base would hear about the offer first, but long term, everyone knows where to find the best price for palladium.

 

[OamodSias]

FDEV didn't see fit to include a list of where all the rares are. They didn't include a crowdsourced trading tool. Therefore they aren't part of the game, and are akin to artificial performance enhancers and/or insider trading. Use of them can be regarded as metagaming/cheating.

Of course, the cheats can insult those who call them on it, or they can justify their cheating to themselves. Doesn't alter the fact that they are using information their character shouldn't have in order to gain an advantage. Call it efficiency, say "that's just how it is", say "everybody does it", say "welcome to the internet" even. Still cheating.

Lol, okay.