NO to "third party tools" for ED

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This whole topic comes down to the fact that some guys just like to hammer their shillelaghs on the anvil and some just like to walk on by. As long as the tools are information based and not dumping cash straight into your account I see no problem with them at all.
I'll be walking by the anvil, Ouch!
 
I would agree with the OP if the in-game tools were up to snuff, but they're not so I see no problems in using third party tools that enhance the experience. Prime example for me is the trading system - the one in ED is no better than the one in the original Elite - it's as basic as they could get it and I even find it hard to believe it's still in the game.

I haven't used it, because I use a Rift, but I remember a thread about a trading tool based on an Excel spreadsheet (?) and it looked really good. As I say, I never used it, but the appearance of it was brilliant. It's the sort of thing that should be in the game, at least the bulk of it. We should be able to look back over systems we've visited prices at the time we were there, we should be able to examine our own records looking for good routes. Forcing a player to use pen and paper, or screenshots or whatever, for this is a poor, poor effort.

Just one example of why I agree with the OP in principle, but in practice the game is so lacking with it's own tools I do not agree with it "no matter what".
 
I used the third party tools initially, but then realised they removed a lot of risk and a stack of game play where I had to work things out for myself. I haven't used them since. If other people want to use them then fine, but in doing so they actually lose content and increase the grind.

I think the game should remember last prices from systems you have visited, you should be able to buy data on prices. Also you should be able to keep notes in game.

Part of the issue here is that the player does not have all the required tools.
 
Whatever....OP. You can't really be expecting people to play the game ONLY YOUR WAY, right? Get off your high horse and let people enjoy themselves the way they want to.

I really don't think this is the case. I think on a round about way the OP was actually explaining the reason why people get bored and claim the game is a grind. Using third party trade tools means you don't have to explore any of the games content, you just skip all that and grind in the most efficient (read repetitive) way possible and then they get bored.
 
It's a reflection of what is missing in game, remember all the lovely concept art of trading? All the detail? I fully expected and hoped that was going to be implemented - I don't have any hopes of that now.
 
It's a reflection of what is missing in game, remember all the lovely concept art of trading? All the detail? I fully expected and hoped that was going to be implemented - I don't have any hopes of that now.
Whaddaya mean? They have been talking about adding all these layers of statistics and in-game tools non-stop. It's actually getting a bit annoying to have to read about this kind of stuff in every dang dev update and news letter.
 
I think additional comments are in order:

* First, I don't hate tools themselves. They are just tools. Some of them fulfills functionality players wait for being implement in the game (Commander's Log type of apps), so I understand intention. And even with trading tools I kinda don't hate on them...But here is what follows
* I strongly dislike (would be right word) what massive information *sharing* does to game and ecosystem of the game. Using web trading tools is standard practice, and that's issue. Logging your own trading deals and prices as you travel is huge thumbs up from me and I want to see such functionality in game, however let's be honest here - getting some tips from friends about trading routes is one thing, just jumping on web trading tool as ways to amass wealth in short time is another. And unfortunately I have heard last scenario unfolding too many times;
* I don't like such tools in general, for any game. It takes away challenge and mystery. And what's worse - young players are introduced to them asap and made believe that it is a norm;

It's not.
 
I think additional comments are in order:

* First, I don't hate tools themselves. They are just tools. Some of them fulfills functionality players wait for being implement in the game (Commander's Log type of apps), so I understand intention. And even with trading tools I kinda don't hate on them...But here is what follows
* I strongly dislike (would be right word) what massive information *sharing* does to game and ecosystem of the game. Using web trading tools is standard practice, and that's issue. Logging your own trading deals and prices as you travel is huge thumbs up from me and I want to see such functionality in game, however let's be honest here - getting some tips from friends about trading routes is one thing, just jumping on web trading tool as ways to amass wealth in short time is another. And unfortunately I have heard last scenario unfolding too many times;
* I don't like such tools in general, for any game. It takes away challenge and mystery. And what's worse - young players are introduced to them asap and made believe that it is a norm;

It's not.
Welcome on the internet, where data can be shared and found.
 
I suddenly realized that no one talks about elephant in a room and that is "third party tools" used by players for every game they play - "to maximize gains".

I just wanted to say that in my opinion that this is what in long term destroys gaming as enjoyable pass time and moves into obsession driven sugar rush madness. It's addictive, because tools and min/max attitude enables you win. In the end, all you wanna do is win, which leads to grind. Grind leads to disappointment because at some point you figure out that all you do is grind.

I realize that everyone plays game they want to play and it is not for me to educate how to do it. I just wanted to say that there are people not using tools. They are certainly read things, and hear tips and notes. However it mostly goes out in ad hoc fashion.

So say NO to third party tools. Stick with your guns and instinct. Ask if stuck and read tips from other forumians. But don't engage in mass exploitation of shared information. If you want to find that outfit that works for you - find it. Don't obsess with configurations given you by third party sites.

Edit: my issues are mostly with trading and outfitting info sharing tools (best outfit or best trade route). Outfitting tools that allows you to build configuration and figure out numbers, or commander log, which just logs all your actions, etc. is something I dig it.

I kind of agree BUT FD have to a point bought it on themselves... it would probably have happened anyway but ED desperately needs a captains log to allow us to record notes of where we go, as well as detailed flight plan info.

so long as this core feature set is missing, of course others will pick up the slack... and the simple fact is, once someone goes down that road the temptation is there to open it to the public.

I would be lost without slopeys tool - as proven as it has been playing up recently.
its confounded even more by playing in the rift, but in this day and agee it is only reasonable to expect the game to fill in a lot of the blanks for us and have the manual text entries to a minimum.

I know you say you are fine with that side of slopey's tool, however as i said, once someone goes down that road it is only a sniff from going to the next level.

I suspect (and my be wrong) slopey would not have made his tool if FD had included a Captain's log.
 
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Philip Coutts

Volunteer Moderator
Blind luck, some paper and a pencil or pen are my trading tools of choice...

Let people use whatever tools they want though, choice is good and the tools add enjoyment to the way a lot of people play.
 
Blind luck, some paper and a pencil or pen are my trading tools of choice...

Let people use whatever tools they want though, choice is good and the tools add enjoyment to the way a lot of people play.

I guess I am sitting on the fence as I kind of agree with this too.... 1 (slight - it is not a huge issue to me) problem is when you spend ages finding a route and know it is capable of maintaining a few CMDRs hammering it, and then someone uploads it to the web and within a few hrs it is crippled.

I am not being holier than thou, I will be the 1st to admit that despite trying to find my own routes, there are times I have used online tools as well.... but I can defo see why some like these online tools but at the same time I sypathise with those who feel they are borking the game a bit.
 
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To each their own I guess.
Not really something I do myself, only used the "guicolour" thing because I didn't like the default.
I also use Notepad because I have a head like a sieve.

Using these tools almost gives the game a difficulty slider.
If you use them you effectively "Easy Mode" the game. The less you use, the harder and more challenging it is.

I would like something incorporated into the game where points of interest could be added to the map but I can get by as is.
Something that would allow these to be toggled on or off would allow players to still pay the game their way.
 
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(...) There is a massive lack in ED when it come to trading tools, and other 'content'.(...)

That's my point too. I can't imagine that in 1000 years, we'll still have such poor tools in ships. Not even the history of visited systems...

Today, we can configure our GPS to plan a path with manually-configured 'forced waypoints', and we don't have that in our ship? We have plenty of "compare XXX" websites, and there's no such thing in the future for commodities?

Third-party tools are there to offer "year 2015" services to "year 3300" commanders. Feel free not to use them. I know I'll keep using them, not because they allow me to cheat, but because I consider the "service" they provide as implicit in year 3300.
 
I use EDDN for two main reasons when I set off on a journey: 1. To look at station types in my destination system (which I could also do in-game). 2. To look at 'last known prices' (which I cannot do in game, although as Ben Ryder points out there are some inférences I could get from in-game data). The prices I see on EDDN are not always correct.
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I personally find it acceptable use, also for 2 reasons. 1. If we are a Pilot Federation, then as others have said, we would share information on 'last known price'. I think of it as a bulletin board in the PF office in each station, where we pin-up 'last known price' for all to see. And although one could 'chat' in-game, that is not always possible, and as yet there is no sense of a meeting place for such discussions in game. 2. I think a 'last known price' tool should be in-game, as should a personal visit log, and customised route plotting (ie selecting multiple stops on a single route not just a/b economical/fastest routes). If they were, I would not use EDDN in all likelihood. And I remain hopeful that they will come at one point (on the other hand, FD may well think - well, why focus on those atm, when there are these great Tools out there already).
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I do have sympathy for the OP position though, and in particular the refined view he posted (quoted below). Min/Maxing is not what I am doing (I am getting a last know set of prices, and then setting my own routes, doing my own plotting, and they are rarely the most profitable - but then again, pure profit is rarely my motivation). And were I min/maxing, then I would find that boring and a grind. Still, if that is what floats your boat, then that is up to you. Any app that actaully hacks your ship or modules or adjusts your bank blanace - that is stone cold cheating. These other apps like trade Tools, price sharing, community xls that share shipyard and outfitting, EDShipyard & Coriolis.io - I do not see those in the same way. They are useful in the absence of in-game Tools, they are community driven and not proprietory (to my knowledge) which must surely be a good thing, and - like many things in life - I suspect if you overuse & abuse them, then you'll end up resenting them (and boring yourself). But, again - your choice.
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And again, I reiterate that the price you see on any tool fed by JSON, like EDDN, can be wrong. Sometimes very wrong. I would not want to see 'live' prices in-game, sent across thousands of LY instantly. That would seem a bit much. I prefer the last known price approach, with the price decaying in time/reliability depending on a systems distance from you.
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I think additional comments are in order:

* First, I don't hate tools themselves. They are just tools. Some of them fulfills functionality players wait for being implement in the game (Commander's Log type of apps), so I understand intention. And even with trading tools I kinda don't hate on them...But here is what follows
* I strongly dislike (would be right word) what massive information *sharing* does to game and ecosystem of the game. Using web trading tools is standard practice, and that's issue. Logging your own trading deals and prices as you travel is huge thumbs up from me and I want to see such functionality in game, however let's be honest here - getting some tips from friends about trading routes is one thing, just jumping on web trading tool as ways to amass wealth in short time is another. And unfortunately I have heard last scenario unfolding too many times;
* I don't like such tools in general, for any game. It takes away challenge and mystery. And what's worse - young players are introduced to them asap and made believe that it is a norm;

It's not.
 
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Wow, a bit surprised at some of the more bitter responses here. AFAIK the OP is just pointing out that following the 'usual approach' using trader-tools may be less fun than doing things on your own. He specifically mentions he isn't judging, everyone is free to do their own thing, it is just a suggestion people may consider. If they want. IMHO it is good advice: so many people start in a sidewinder, literally follow the steps of one of these trade guides which basically is, to me, the most boring way to play ED: you basically have a tool tell you where to go, and you blindly repeat that for hundreds of hours until you have a huge stack of cash. You then get a battle conda, kill some people in a Sidewinder, complain that Vipers are overpowered, post some FD-sucks posts and leave because 'ED is boring, miles wide and inches deep'.

Personally I use a whole bunch of 3rd party tools (EDDiscovery, Joystick Curves, Text Macro, vid capture) and I'm having fun. I think that is the main point Pecisk is trying to make: Do what you want, use whatever tools you need, but think for yourselves if it increases your fun or if you only use it because others do it. Might bbe just common sense, but we've all seen to many people admitting they've been playing for dozens of hours and disliking every second of it. For those people the OP might be an eye-opener, me thinks. To those who play their way and are having fun: right on, cmdr!
 
That's my point too. I can't imagine that in 1000 years, we'll still have such poor tools in ships. Not even the history of visited systems...
Today, we can configure our GPS to plan a path with manually-configured 'forced waypoints', and we don't have that in our ship? We have plenty of "compare XXX" websites, and there's no such thing in the future for commodities?
Third-party tools are there to offer "year 2015" services to "year 3300" commanders. Feel free not to use them. I know I'll keep using them, not because they allow me to cheat, but because I consider the "service" they provide as implicit in year 3300.
100% correct
In our ships there are Computers which can calculate hyperjumps, but they are not able to store the data from the stations we have been?
Call it cheating - i call it 'filling in the most idiotic gaps'
 
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