Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[sbdags]

15th run completed. One last push for the final tier?

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Well, if this is what the guild proponents wanted, then I am guilty of misreading the guilds thread over and over again. I have no problems with FD's implementation of minor factions. Where I play in the lonesome universe it will be business as usual, the effected stations will just show a player faction in place of the current AI faction. What I understood the guildies wanted was control of said stations, to prevent other players from using them without kissi....er....securing their permission, and other sweeping powers favored by autocrats everywhere. I could not care less if it's a player faction or an AI faction on the right panel. That's all the same to me.

So apologies. If this is what guild proponents wanted all along, I just misunderstood you, and this addition to the game is fine by me. However, I still suspect that guild proponents wanted so much more.

I think I was discussing what I wanted, and that the term "guild proponents" was misleading

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I might be mixing things up, but weren't the minor factions merely NPC factions that get promoted to powers through player action? As in, players won't have any more control over them than they currently have over the powers?

It's quite far from the kind of player-led factions that many players don't want in the game, and I don't see anything in that idea that would be any worse than the current Powerplay is.

No you to create a faction and name it, choose its government type and description. There is a whole thread dealing with it explaining what you will be able to do. You can also adopt one, but not rename it. Either way, it is very promising and good to see this development. We could see hardcore players like The Code become major factions! So they would be in the Powerplay tab and such, impacting not just the Online world, but ALL the game modes

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This was suggested long before mega thread 1.
And it was countered in every mega thread (linked in my sig).


Yes FD did say all modes are valid, they also said they are blanced - linked in my sig (last link)
So open does not need anything to the rewards.
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Solo / Group advocates tried for concessions but Open advocates refused and continued to be insulting and making wild demands.
Read the past 2 megas and you'll see it for yourself.
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Also, Solo is not "easier" - I've personally proven Open is no different, as has other mode switching advocates. Also, Open is instanced - so who in open would get bonuses? as someone in Open could be placed in a Solo instance for what ever technical reason the game sees fit - how is it fair a person in a solo instance in open gets a bonus, but a solo player doesn't despite being EXACTLY the same situation.
Saying Solo is easier is a specious argument at best, at the monst honest it is an out right lie to push an agenda.

People do attack Mobius from the Open advocates camp though. In a litteral sense as CODE members joined Mobius and started griefing other players and focing PvP in a group made for PvE players.
How do you feel about that?
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"Spice and danger" are a personal preferance. I play the game to relax, looking at my scanner every 5 seconds is not relaxing for me.
I joined Mobius so I could relax, but again I cannot due to players still being able to force their game style on everyone else, as proven by CODE.
Also, not everyone in Open knows about Mobius - so you cannot count them as PvP votes, they have not been given the choice (a choice Open advocates don't want showing as they fear people would leave Open PvP or a real Open PvE mode). Less than 10% of the player base know about Mobius, as it's only advertised on the forums.
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As for the tag line "Play it your way" - that is an out right lie from FD. PvE players cannot play a multiplayer space game with others their way - as PvP players can force unwanted PvP on the PvE players, even in their own private group.
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I was lead to belive I could PvE when I want to with others, and I could PvP when I want to with others - but in truth, it's Solo or PvP. There is no PvE choice.
Even the new game mode is PvP (CQC).
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Some of us want the "Play your way" to actually cater for everyone - as we were told it would.

"People do attack Mobius from the Open advocates camp though" That has nothing to do with me. Not part of any "camp".

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

You keep misinterpreting MY beliefs in what I write. I am only explaining to you a couple thousand post thread, from others points of view. If you are unaware, check my sig. I am involved with one of the longest running guilds in the game...that I think is also amongst one of the most successful in the game at attaining stated goals. I understand what guilds want, but also understand that many of those desires are not going to occur because the game does not allow for it.

Just to be clear, guilds are an illusion of control within this game. A guild only exists because the community allows it to. If the community feels that a group is acting outside the rules of the game, they can either fight against your guild to remove its influence from the game...or worse, completely ignore your interactions and fly around you. This is by design..and will not change. It would be nice to have a guild owned station...and I have argued for that in other places. However, I do not ever expect to see this occur...because the implication goes against the stated design of the game.

You might look at power play and say 'But our group can become a power! You can control that!' What you are not seeing is that once any group becomes a Power...they are not owned by those that created the group any more. You have lost complete control of the group and the group plays, and exists in PowerPlay, at the whim of the community. So the largest reward a player group can achieve is that their group, and the content they provide, turn into an NPC.

"I was lead to believe I could PvE when I want to with others" You can, in private group-mode. Just don't shoot your friends! Also it is all well and good claiming the control in the game is an illusion, but it is a video game, and is itself an illusion. As for Code getting into Moebius, well he decided to run an 11000 person group, it is up to him to vet who he lets in. Either way, i doubt they caused much terror for long I have no problem with people playing in their modes, how they want. Just don't see why so many people have a problem with the way we choose to play online, given it is all above board and sanctioned by FD. The way you described the elevation to power. I am fine with that, I never had a problem with that. It seems you are confusing me with other people in this debate. Also, the most powerful and numerous members decide what the power does, via nominations and expansion etc.. so since say The Code are very organised, they could still manipulate a major power fairly easily, just as any large organised group could do with powerplay. I like ED has their own way of doing things, and that Player Factions are being introduced the way they are. It will only get better with time

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15th run completed. One last push for the final tier?

http://i.imgur.com/v5R9RDa.png

Hehe, the appropriately named "Hutton Mug" goal...

 

[DarkWalker]

No you to create a faction and name it, choose its government type and description. There is a whole thread dealing with it explaining what you will be able to do. You can also adopt one, but not rename it. Either way, it is very promising and good to see this development. We could see hardcore players like The Code become major factions! So they would be in the Powerplay tab and such, impacting not just the Online world, but ALL the game modes

It's what I meant. Still a NPC faction, even if uplifted by players. You can't exclude people from its space or stations, you can't prevent anyone from pledging to it and getting its rewards, you can't prevent others from influencing its actions or even wrestling whatever control players can have over powers, it doesn't cause any more disruption than the current Powers, it has almost no effect on anyone that isn't engaged in Powerplay. It's as harmless to anyone not interested in playing along as, say, a commemorative plaque at a station, and thus I have no issues with it.

 

[Jockey79]

"People do attack Mobius from the Open advocates camp though" That has nothing to do with me. Not part of any "camp".

Asking for PvE to be removed and asking for better rewards for open firmly place you in the open advocates camp, saying open is "easier" just means you want to be insulting (this has been covered in this thread, it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting) and there was no need to be insulting.
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And FD not supporting a style of play that they lead people to believe was in the game involves everyone - how long until they do something to what you want in game?
You want your guild names taking off you when they become Power Play factions - thus NPC lead not lead by your own group? How upset will you be then? Who will you turn to?
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They say "Play your way" and wont supply an Open PvE mode, they only make a mode that is PvP only (CQC).
This game is moving closer to EVE with cockpits, which a lot of people have said they don't want (again, read the mega threads to find out more).

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

It's what I meant. Still a NPC faction, even if uplifted by players. You can't exclude people from its space or stations, you can't prevent anyone from pledging to it and getting its rewards, you can't prevent others from influencing its actions or even wrestling whatever control players can have over powers, it doesn't cause any more disruption than the current Powers, it has almost no effect on anyone that isn't engaged in Powerplay. It's as harmless to anyone not interested in playing along as, say, a commemorative plaque at a station, and thus I have no issues with it.

I think its good you cant prevent people from doing that. They can still try to enforce a blockade or whatever, but only in Open with players who consent to take part. Sounds good to me. It will have an effect on the game though, just not an obvious one like a new menu option or anything. Kind of like power-play, we will see new hubs, and wars that have nothing to do with the BGS, and more to do with personal rivalry/jealousy/player manipulation. They can at least take ownership of something. I~t is good for all those people who have consistently backed minor factions as well, to be able to affiliate with them. I don't think I advocated for disrupting anyone's game, I just remember being told that if I got this thing, it WOULD disrupt others games and make Space less safe for people who want to avoid combat.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Asking for PvE to be removed and asking for better rewards for open firmly place you in the open advocates camp, saying open is "easier" just means you want to be insulting (this has been covered in this thread, it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting) and there was no need to be insulting.
.
And FD not supporting a style of play that they lead people to believe was in the game involves everyone - how long until they do something to what you want in game?
You want your guild names taking off you when they become Power Play factions - thus NPC lead not lead by your own group? How upset will you be then? Who will you turn to?
.
They say "Play your way" and wont supply an Open PvE mode, they only make a mode that is PvP only (CQC).
This game is moving closer to EVE with cockpits, which a lot of people have said they don't want (again, read the mega threads to find out more).

"Asking for PvE to be removed" - It was an actual response to a suggestion PvP be removed, bu I expect context is easily lost in a forum such as this

"asking for better rewards for open" - Merely suggesting they reward players who take extra risks. would not be the first time FD agreed with this. They had a competition that could only be done in Open Play.

" it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting" - No, I think you will find I can discuss my ideas freely, and if you feel insulted, you are free to report my post to a moderator. At no point did I "insult" anyone, I am merely participating in an honest debate.

"You want your guild names taking off you when they become Power Play factions - thus NPC lead not lead by your own group? How upset will you be then? Who will you turn to?"

Woah there, you are really taking this whole thing personally! I don't really understand what you mean, as the sentence seems a poorly constructed one, but I said I was happy with the Minor Factions as they have been proposed. I have no idea why you think I have reason to be "upset". I doubt any minor faction I am a part of is EVER going to be a power, so I am not that bothered I imagine letting a faction go PP would be the same as floating on the stock market, so the risk aspect seems just fine to me.

"hey say "Play your way" and wont supply an Open PvE mode, they only make a mode that is PvP only (CQC)"

Then you are free to complain to them about that, I don't think that is part of the discussion we are having here..

"This game is moving closer to EVE with cockpits, which a lot of people have said they don't want (again, read the mega threads to find out more)."

I have no inclination to go digging into megathreads that talk about EVE. I like Elite Dangerous..

 

[Mouse]

That brings me back to one of my original points that players only looking to earn merits for rating, faction rewards, and other faction related bonuses participate in PP in solo/private so as to grind unhindered which directly affects power standings which affects all players belonging to the same power and other powers.

I've been rank one since the beginning.. I carry stuff to prepare some systems but ones that other powers are not after.. so your premises that players are only after ratings, faction rewards and other stuff is wrong

 

[Mouse]

Well then they have Moebius, they are using the "equally valid" gamemode to play it their way. Good for them! So people in Open play it the way FDEV intended, all good still. As another poster pointed out, this forum is a minority of the 825000 people ACTUALLY playing the game. If you want to avoid "non-consensual" PvP, there are other game modes that prevent players form interdicting you against your consent. When you enter Open right now, you are indicating that you are fine with PvP, as it is an integral and supported part of the game mode.

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Please show me where FDEV said that Open is the intended way for people to play

 

[Robert Maynard]

Please show me where FDEV said that Open is the intended way for people to play

.... or alternatively (from here):

I pointed out that there’s frequent contention online about the “right” way to play, be it casual or hard-core, and Braben agreed. “But there shouldn’t be a ‘right’ way,” he said. “You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play. And people have come up with lots of suggestions, some of them very constructive and sensible, and we do listen, and people hopefully have seen that we’ve changed things and adjusted things, but not in a way—we hope!—to upset people. We’re doing it to make the game better!”

 

[Virgil9940]

I've been rank one since the beginning.. I carry stuff to prepare some systems but ones that other powers are not after.. so your premises that players are only after ratings, faction rewards and other stuff is wrong

I didn't say that. I said that players only looking to earn merits for rewards participate in PP using solo/private. There's a difference between the two.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Please show me where FDEV said that Open is the intended way for people to play

I never made that claim, I said "playing the game as intended", ie.. not cheating, doing what the sandbox allows. Sorry if you misunderstood what I meant I think ALL game modes are equally valid.

 

[Mouse]

I didn't say that. I said that players only looking to earn merits for rewards participate in PP using solo/private. There's a difference between the two.

I would ask for proof, how do you know? have you polled every PP member and asked them why they play PP and which mode they use? You are making a blanket statement with no data what so ever to back up your claims.

 

[Jockey79]

"Asking for PvE to be removed" - It was an actual response to a suggestion PvP be removed, bu I expect context is easily lost in a forum such as this
Asking for PvP to be removed came from others genuinely asking for PvE / Solo to be removed - circle complete

"asking for better rewards for open" - Merely suggesting they reward players who take extra risks. would not be the first time FD agreed with this. They had a competition that could only be done in Open Play.
FD don't agree with better rewards in open at all - the quotes are in my Wall of Information in my Sig.
The competitions were locked to Open to help prevent accusations of "cheating" / "Exploiting"

" it is down to you to research what you are going to talk about, before posting" - No, I think you will find I can discuss my ideas freely, and if you feel insulted, you are free to report my post to a moderator. At no point did I "insult" anyone, I am merely participating in an honest debate.
You insult anyone who uses Solo for any reason, by declaring they only do it due to wanting an "easier" game.
Some people use solo for technical reasons, others for medical reasons. If you're happy to belittle others, go right ahead, but don't expect them to be nice back.

"You want your guild names taking off you when they become Power Play factions - thus NPC lead not lead by your own group? How upset will you be then? Who will you turn to?"

Woah there, you are really taking this whole thing personally! I don't really understand what you mean, as the sentence seems a poorly constructed one, but I said I was happy with the Minor Factions as they have been proposed. I have no idea why you think I have reason to be "upset". I doubt any minor faction I am a part of is EVER going to be a power, so I am not that bothered I imagine letting a faction go PP would be the same as floating on the stock market, so the risk aspect seems just fine to me.
Not taken anything personally, just fed up responding to people who refuse to read up or research a thread before posting in it.
You've added nothing new, just going back 3 pages before your first post or reading the first 2 pages would have shown that.


"hey say "Play your way" and wont supply an Open PvE mode, they only make a mode that is PvP only (CQC)"

Then you are free to complain to them about that, I don't think that is part of the discussion we are having here..
This thread is for modes, CQC is a mode, selected from the main menu - it's not a guilds thread and you've brought up guilds, really want to talk about who is off topic?

"This game is moving closer to EVE with cockpits, which a lot of people have said they don't want (again, read the mega threads to find out more)."

I have no inclination to go digging into megathreads that talk about EVE. I like Elite Dangerous..
I prefer Elite, but Open advocates are determined to change it to EVE.

Answers in quote.

 

[Mouse]

I never made that claim, I said "playing the game as intended", ie.. not cheating, doing what the sandbox allows. Sorry if you misunderstood what I meant I think ALL game modes are equally valid.

Then I have to ask why you specified open? For those playing in Solo, in Private are also not cheating, doing what the sandbox allows and such.

 

[DarkWalker]

I think its good you cant prevent people from doing that. They can still try to enforce a blockade or whatever, but only in Open with players who consent to take part. Sounds good to me.

Which keeps me wondering, how is it any different from what we have now? The same courses of action are available, with the same limitations about who you can influence. The only difference is the label attached to one or more involved factions, which for me is no difference at all.

It will have an effect on the game though, just not an obvious one like a new menu option or anything. Kind of like power-play, we will see new hubs, and wars that have nothing to do with the BGS, and more to do with personal rivalry/jealousy/player manipulation. They can at least take ownership of something.

If that is your fix, go for it; I never could understand what people like you see in plastering your name all over the game, and couldn't care less about doing it myself. As long as you can never directly influence my game, and don't attempt to limit or reduce what I can play or earn just because I refuse to engage in PvP, I'm peachy.

I~t is good for all those people who have consistently backed minor factions as well, to be able to affiliate with them. I don't think I advocated for disrupting anyone's game, I just remember being told that if I got this thing, it WOULD disrupt others games and make Space less safe for people who want to avoid combat.

Likely because many of those that wanted guilds/corporations/etc were pushing for an EVE-like system, where players had effective control over regions of space or stations and could define rules and exclude opponents; that would have basically broken every promise Frontier ever made about allowing players to play in whichever way they wanted. What Frontier is planning to offer in its place isn't any more disrupting than Powerplay already is, and thus not an issue.

 

[Scudmungus]

Open aalways make mi tink:

Designers. Yuh neva read up on de Standford Prison Experiment? Abu Ghraib abuse?

Open gat aal de ingredients fah bringin out de worst in humanity.

Hmm. Ignorance or maybi dis wat dem wantin?

Terrifyin! Nah just dis game...

..seim goin fah Monday mornin rush hour.

 

[Jockey79]

Open aalways make mi tink:

Designers. Yuh neva read up on de Standford Prison Experiment? Abu Ghraib abuse?

Open gat aal de ingredients fah bringin out de worst in humanity.

Hmm. Ignorance or maybi dis wat dem wantin?

Terrifyin! Nah just dis game...

..seim goin fah Monday mornin rush hour.

While you are right, the set up also allows for the best of humanity to shine through.
Alas the dregs of society make more noise than the best of society do.
.
I think we need a good news only thread, show that nice things do actually happen (in all modes).

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Answers in quote.

"FD don't agree with better rewards in open at all - the quotes are in my Wall of Information in my Sig.
The competitions were locked to Open to help prevent accusations of "cheating" / "Exploiting""

Was still in Open , so my point still stands.

"Asking for PvP to be removed came from others genuinely asking for PvE / Solo to be removed - circle complete "

Was just a point I was making about how much they dislike the idea of having a game mode removed. I just thought I would clarify this for you

"You insult anyone who uses Solo for any reason, by declaring they only do it due to wanting an "easier" game.
Some people use solo for technical reasons, others for medical reasons. If you're happy to belittle others, go right ahead, but don't expect them to be nice back."

Again, I have not insulted anyone. Insults are not allowed on this forum. If you feel I have insulted anyone, please report the post to a moderator and highlight the insult. They will punish me for it I am sure. At no point did I~ say "Solo players WANT an easier game", you are just putting words in my mouth. This is not an honest thing to do. Please can you quote me where I said that? What I DO say is that I would like a more CHALLENGING game, and that is not an insult to anyone who plays in solo. All game modes are equally valid. Do you not agree?

"Not taken anything personally, just fed up responding to people who refuse to read up or research a thread before posting in it.
You've added nothing new, just going back 3 pages before your first post or reading the first 2 pages would have shown that."

Then feel free not to respond to me. Your issue seems to be that I have not researched what constitutes an "insult". Again, I am merely discussing the gameplay mechanics and the consequences of what changes in those would mean. It is a public forum.

"This thread is for modes, CQC is a mode, selected from the main menu - it's not a guilds thread and you've brought up guilds, really want to talk about who is off topic?"

It was just a slight diversion, and in my opinion it s relevant to the discussion of what it means for the different game modes. Again, if this is a problem you don;t have to respond.

"I prefer Elite, but Open advocates are determined to change it to EVE."

If you say so, but can you not see how this could be misconstrued as "insulting"? Either way, that has nothing to do with me.

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Which keeps me wondering, how is it any different from what we have now? The same courses of action are available, with the same limitations about who you can influence. The only difference is the label attached to one or more involved factions, which for me is no difference at all.


If that is your fix, go for it; I never could understand what people like you see in plastering your name all over the game, and couldn't care less about doing it myself. As long as you can never directly influence my game, and don't attempt to limit or reduce what I can play or earn just because I refuse to engage in PvP, I'm peachy.


Likely because many of those that wanted guilds/corporations/etc were pushing for an EVE-like system, where players had effective control over regions of space or stations and could define rules and exclude opponents; that would have basically broken every promise Frontier ever made about allowing players to play in whichever way they wanted. What Frontier is planning to offer in its place isn't any more disrupting than Powerplay already is, and thus not an issue.

"The only difference is the label attached to one or more involved factions, which for me is no difference at all." It makes a big difference for me. That it makes no difference to you is fine, it should not hurt your game then.

"I never could understand what people like you see in plastering your name all over the game" - I have to wonder what you mean about "people like me", you mean people who play Elite?

"Likely because many of those that wanted guilds/corporations/etc were pushing for an EVE-like system" - Well I gave you MY reasons. If you want to think that, that is fine. I dont personally have any problem with EVE anyway.

"What Frontier is planning to offer in its place isn't any more disrupting than Powerplay already is, and thus not an issue" - Again, we are in agreement here. If other people had asked for more, that has nothing to do with me. I got everything I wanted out of the Player Factions announcement, and thought it was clever the way they are implementing it.

 

[Scudmungus]

While you are right, the set up also allows for the best of humanity to shine through.
Alas the dregs of society make more noise than the best of society do.
.
I think we need a good news only thread, show that nice things do actually happen (in all modes).

Truth. Mi try an luv aal. An mi recognize dat alot of gud undone quick wid ickle evil...

Gat dis from Wiki, regardin Stanford Prison Experiment. Try readin ting, swappin out 'Zimbardo' wid 'Frontier' an 'guards' wid 'players'. Advise aal to read up more - wiki nah doin justice. Still, read an mi tink... dis can apply to many a game. Accountability wid designers creatin virtual environments? Somtin to research mi tink! (Mi add emphasis)

The guards and prisoners adapted to their roles more than Zimbardo expected, stepping beyond predicted boundaries, leading to dangerous and psychologically damaging situations. One-third of the guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine sadistic tendencies", while many prisoners were emotionally traumatized, as five of them had to be removed from the experiment early. After Maslach confronted Zimbardo and forced him to realize that he had been passively allowing unethical acts to be performed under his supervision, Zimbardo concluded that both prisoners and guards had become grossly absorbed in their roles and realized that he had likewise become as grossly absorbed in his own, and he terminated the experiment.

Rememba: Game design really ickle field, really young academically. Nah many proffesional game designers wid backgroun in psychology. Lotta playin wid tings dem nah fully understandin - like.. people!