Powerplay SNIPING in Powerplay

[yul7896]

No. And then Aisling proceeded to 5th collumn Mahon because we dared tell them that their crappy situation is thanks to their incompetence to organize their power for so many weeks.

Oh...sorry...I meant they joined Mahon in order to oppose the expansion to Paganau, which was prepared, once again, by their own supporters. Just like Camundju is being prepared this week.

Wow. Just....wow. All that worked out by two very powerful minds and nothing? Really? I had no idea. I assumed it was taken care of.

To me the 5th columning is the biggest problem in the game. Maybe all of Winter will defect to ALD and we can get a thread with Frontiers attention started on that issue, which is far more pressing in my mind.

 

[Apos]

Wow. Just....wow. All that worked out by two very powerful minds and nothing? Really? I had no idea. I assumed it was taken care of.

To me the 5th columning is the biggest problem in the game. Maybe all of Winter will defect to ALD and we can get a thread with Frontiers attention started on that issue, which is far more pressing in my mind.

If you defect to ALD, get rank 5 the first week and farm bounties like insane in the second, you will have enough cash to burn to be unstoppable and prepare whichever system you want in the third.

Just saying.

 

[Kroy]

I'm a cog in the machine, but I enjoy the meta game, I like popcorn. I'll probably hit around 2000 fortification merits, none fastract, for Winters in Week 15.

But to put it in perspective, I see a lot of people here who have posted a lot of sensible stuff. I've read their stuff elsewhere on the forum, reddit and private websites. These are guys who are opposed to the idea of a cap on merits.

We've been discussing this in the office for a bit and we're checking some numbers.

Sandro, some of these guys 'n' gals commenting in this thread are just the tip of very sizable operations in PP. Analysing stats doesn't give you the human angle on the story, which I assume is one that you're keen to pursue, because it's the one (not the stats) that generates the real stories. I hope when you check your numbers, you're not divorced from the fact that some of these people do carry a substantial number of followers, which in turn spills out in to the non-organised sections of PP and builds that sense of community that is worth 10 times more than an hourly update of powerplay analysis on GalNet. It sounds exceptionally fluffy and not borne out by stats, figures, algorithms and all that hard stuff, but people matter in PowerPlay. PP needs to be deeper. Not dumbed down even further. Us peons already have enough to do our bit (though a buff on fortification would be fine, and sorting some of the minor power issues mentioned would be good), and give the hardcore elements their levels too... don't strip them out of the equation.

And to the OP of this thread.

I created the thread and I don't support ALD.

But you rode in knowing fine well that ALD had suffered at the hands of the thing you wanted to address. You used ALD just fine.

 

[sg46]

I think that the real problem is that the undermining mechanic is fundamentally broken.

To me, a Power would realise within a few hours that something was happening, when ships start to disappear in their systems.

The way that undermining should work (from a logical point of view), would be:

An hour or so after a ship is destroyed, it would show up as undermining merits against the power on the galactic and power maps. This would be separate to the player dropping off the kill confirmation to get paid. The player dropping off merits should be immaterial to the power that lost the ship, as the action already happened (the ship being destroyed).

You would also assume, seeing as you get the odd 'internal security investigating' message pop up, that the longer you stay in an enemy system undermining, the more security is sent in, to 'remove' you from the system.

You could still use sniping as a tactic (sending a wing to a system, a few hours before the week ticks over), but all powers would know what systems are being undermined on a semi-regular basis. I think it would be the best win-win to both sides.

All the above is just my 2cents, and most probably far too logical for a video game

 

[Arbitration]

But I've yet to hear a very convincing argument that this change would fundamentally be wrong for Powerplay.

I think that several CMDRs, including myself, have made the case that transiting back and forth from home territory to hostile space will easily double the time it takes to undermine, and essentially kill any interest in performing such a task.

However, I think I have a solution that would make everyone happy if merit limits were implemented:
Make the merits only drop-able in the system being undermined. CMDRs will have to "run the gauntlet" of hostile space cops to drop off their merits in the station. This would:
1) eliminate the unnecessary trek back to home base;
2) solve the problem of last minute merit bombing;
3) add an extra level of risk in performing undermining, which is currently, let's be honest, like shooting so many Sidewinders in a barrel.

Whaddya think? Could that be a middle ground solution?

Thanks in advance for actually interacting with us - even though we may not see eye to eye all the time, we do have to realize that it is your baby after all. But like going out to a restaurant or a concert, we all have to deal with your baby

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Oh trust us, we are all for suggestions and getting PP fixed.

But when the Developers themselves, namely Sandro pulls the unless the Empire is affected, disadvantaged, or people scream on the top of their lungs and risk having their accounts banned, will be ignored. When people request for the mechanics they changed or fixed and their details, nothing comes back, no response whatsoever despite acknowledging our request of said transparency.

Any questioning of FD's Empire bias is "absurd" and "factually false." (I can't finish without laughing)

Absolutely laughable FD, absolutely laughable.

FD, I am trying to respect you, but I think you intentionally don't want that to happen with how you're handling PR...

 

[GluttonyFang]

Hello Commanders!

I understand the argument that it will be harder for smaller powers to attack larger powers successfully. A reasonable point.

I also understand that some of the concepts behind sniping (coordinated attacks and what have you) are not necessarily bad.

We've been discussing this in the office for a bit and we're checking some numbers.

Feel free to keep up the discussion, some very interesting points raised. Obviously nothing is going to happen right away, there are some other options to look at as well.

I'll keep you informed.

I certainly hope you also understand that for the cycles upon cycles of people underming Archon with last second merit submission...

How about stop fixing things only when they become an inconvenience of the Empire so you won't have people wondering why FD has a bias for the Empire?

Of course, this is not to say that you shouldn't fix what you believe is a bug or a glitch, but when you keep doing this when certain faction is in danger, what else do you expect us to believe other than that you have a bias. (I understand that you acknowledged the combat expansion bug, but why is no short term solution provided like the previous mechanic changes such as overhead tweaking and turmoil mechanic bugs?)

I'm trying Sandro, very very very hard to respect you and your professionalism, but I am really really really have a hard time here.

 

[Soopyyy]

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

No its not. That is less than 1hr of undermining. It would take me almost as long to get to target as it would to undermine it...

 

[napoleon85]

Hello Commander Skyrun!

I respectfully disagree. Currently a system could look completely safe until the last hour, at which point all vouchers could be traded in.

With a suitably restrained limit on how many vouchers a Commander could carry at any one time, Commanders would not be able to hide progressive undermining, giving fortifying Commanders to see the growing threat.

I can't really see any major downside to this at all, at the moment. It certainly seems better than being able to offload potentially an entire cycle's worth of undermining vouchers at the last moment.

Whilst it would be great to have super visibility of voucher progress at all time, there are various limitations that prevent us from doing so.

Hello Commanders!

I would think that a number in the range of 500 - 1000 would be an appropriate start. It's a decent amount of vouchers.

In fairness, any limit that isn't sky high should cause a significant reduction in sniping capability.

How about fixing the fundamentally broken PowerPlay mechanics rather than implementing arbitrary limits on the amount of (the only fun) activity you can do at one time? How can you even be surprised about people doing merit bombs and massive undermining after making fortification so incredibly boring and unrewarding, and boosting the rewards for undermining? Do you guys even play your own game, or are you just throwing darts at a wall with random ideas on it?

- - - Updated - - -

I certainly hope you also understand that for the cycles upon cycles of people underming Archon with last second merit submission...

How about stop fixing things only when they become an inconvenience of the Empire so you won't have people wondering why FD has a bias for the Empire?

Also, this. It's getting pretty damn old that FDev are only fixing things that negatively affect the Empire. Hey, Hudson still doesn't get the weapons outfitting discount that's described in our power overview, how about you fix that since you guys broke it yourselves weeks back?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Do you guys even play your own game, or are you just throwing darts at a wall with random ideas on it?

This is an age old question and most evidence point to "no".

And I think I've been around long enough to make that assessment.

 

[Warrick dar Khardak]

We've been discussing this in the office for a bit and we're checking some numbers.

Sandro,

I am stunned by this comment. That you would devote any time to this when so many other things about PowerPlay that need work amazes me. You made Undermining very easy and now are considering a change when everyone takes advantage of that.

I'm really not sure you understand how your own game is played. Wings of fighters with short jump ranges travel very large distances to get to enemy control systems and spend 1+ hours there trying to interdict everything they possibly can. They then head home each holding anywhere around 2,000+ merits each. Travel time is well over half an hour each way. Capping merits at even 2,000 may mean multiple trips for the wing and multiple trips are not fun.

You actually say there is no defence against sniping systems. But there is. Fortify your good systems. The ones that make your Power money. One of the things you guys could be "discussing ... in the office for a bit" would be how to get that information to players in a more organized fashion. We at Hudson, and other powers who are organized on other websites, have figured out how profit actually works (or at least we think we have) and organized a list of our Fortification priorities. This protects us from sniping. And, yes, big powers are hard to keep together. Ask Holland, Spain, England and others about that. It SHOULD be hard for them to hold so many systems.

Now maybe I don't know how to play your game. But I, and many others, are trying. When the goalposts change constantly it becomes very difficult to enjoy the game. A cap on merits earned is artificial and wrong. If you're worried that people might hoard merits, don't allow them to be earned in Private Groups or Solo. Then at least there is a lot of risk in holding lots of merits.

 

[TavrinCallas]

Does anyone have a counter for the argument that a merit cap would unfairly favor the larger powers by the following logic:

The more players your Power has, the higher your ability to last minute undermine.
The less players your Power has, the more notice you have to give the opposing faction that you are undermining them.
Thus the more players your Power has the more effectively you can both undermine and prevent undermining.

Currently strategy can overcome brute strength, but with the proposed cap it simply becomes a numbers game.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Good summary, Open vs Solo might be a little sensitive but the overall sentiment is understood.

- - - Updated - - -

Does anyone have a counter for the argument that a merit cap would unfairly favor the larger powers by the following logic:

The more players your Power has, the higher your ability to last minute undermine.
The less players your Power has, the more notice you have to give the opposing faction that you are undermining them.
Thus the more players your Power has the more effectively you can both undermine and prevent undermining.

Currently strategy can overcome brute strength, but with the proposed cap it simply becomes a numbers game.

That's why it's called an Empire bias, something FD probably will never admit to or cleanse itself of.

 

[yul7896]

If you're worried that people might hoard merits, don't allow them to be earned in Private Groups or Solo. Then at least there is a lot of risk in holding lots of merits.

Yes, this. If you're holding any large amount of merits at once, even docking becomes more 'interesting'. Forcing everyone with a certain amount of merits into Open would make it possible to blockade and actually defend control systems. This would cater to the larger Powers because they could have greater coverage, and wouldn't draw as many resources from activities such as Fortification. Even as a member of a much smaller Power, I don't mind this fix because it would add to the game. Blockade running with several thousand merits, 30minutes before the cycle tick? So so fun. And if the tick came at a random time over the course of a few hours, I think some of the negative potentials could be avoided.

 

[Martin Schou]

Since we're talking about changing the powerplay mechanics, may I suggest you read this thread, Sandro?

 

[Roybe]

The only way I can see combat bond limiting sniping activities having a negative outcome would be in the preparation phase.

If a medium sized group (Elite rank) wanted to keep a power out of a system...sniping allows that to happen with a little more ease.

In Lugh...we stopped the Winters folks by pushing hard at the beginning of the week...and saving up a chunk of bonds for them at the end...we felt we could capitalize on the idea that they would only move enough paper to keep ahead. If we were limited to certain amounts then this means we would have to grind consistently all week, where our intentions/capabilities become transparent, and the Power can react as they please to stop the grind. This would really limit actions by defenders for preventing a prep...and groups would not bother to fight the prep in that system.

So, it really does come down to what the expectations of players groups and systems is going to become. If there is to be a sense of self determination for groups...then this change would hinder that capability.

 

[CMDR arti lectus]

Does anyone have a counter for the argument that a merit cap would unfairly favor the larger powers by the following logic:

The more players your Power has, the higher your ability to last minute undermine.
The less players your Power has, the more notice you have to give the opposing faction that you are undermining them.
Thus the more players your Power has the more effectively you can both undermine and prevent undermining.

Currently strategy can overcome brute strength, but with the proposed cap it simply becomes a numbers game.

I for one totally agree with this. Sniping currently is the only thing a smaller power can do to counter the larger powers.
If there is going to be a cap on merits for undermining, smaller powers might aswell quit Powerplay.

Maybe give defending players merits for killing players of the opposing power in their own powers space.

 

[FleetAdmiralJ]

OK, this may get lost in the sea at this point, but here is my thoughts on this:

Given the nature of the hording, I understand the idea (as they can apparently horde 30,000 merits or something as I understand it). I understand where the thought about limit merits come in.

However, it seems to me that players using a legitimate in-game practice (undermining) in an organized way is a much smaller problem than a problem that both Archon and Mahon (and probably others too) have been facing recently: moles in our powers who are intentionally trying to prepare and expand into obviously unprofitable systems.

I'm not sure if there is a good way to deal with this, but there really needs to be some sort of veto system over preparation and expansion systems - and one that a small group of very determined and rich saboteurs can't just game themselves (either by overpowering attempts to veto bad systems and/or, even worse, being able to power through vetos of GOOD systems).

I had a thought of perhaps giving players a certain number of veto votes per user level, that they could use to vote to veto or oppose vetoing certain systems, with perhaps 2/3 majority needed to veto the system. However, beyond this there is no way to influence vetoing, so each player has a limited and finite amount of influence (vs. a player just spamming millions of dollars into merits, as usual).

This way the will of the community at large SHOULD be able to overrule any 5th column attempt by infiltrators.

 

[Kowboat]

words

The fact that this is even possible (let alone desirable) underlines the fact that Powerplay is broken and meaningless. We're so far into the weeds from where we started - "a new way to interact with the galaxy" - that we've ended up with a monumentally stupid metagame that has no grounding in the Elite universe or even how the entire rest of the game functions. Nothing makes sense, nothing is worth doing, and all of the feedback we get is demonstrably wrong.

Do the needful and put Powerplay where it belongs: in the garbage.

 

[GluttonyFang]

The fact that this is even possible (let alone desirable) underlines the fact that Powerplay is broken and meaningless. We're so far into the weeds from where we started - "a new way to interact with the galaxy" - that we've ended up with a monumentally stupid metagame that has no grounding in the Elite universe or even how the entire rest of the game functions. Nothing makes sense, nothing is worth doing, and all of the feedback we get is demonstrably wrong.

Do the needful and put Powerplay where it belongs: in the garbage.

Full support, compensate players for their activities and time spent in PP and toss it in the trash can, please.