When PP started, I wasn't much enamoured with it but I thought I'd give it a go... and for a while I was doing OK. Then I noticed this very thing happening and, for me, it pretty much made the whole exercise pointless - so I've unpledged.
If I were to cost my boss money each week by doing dumbass things day in, day out, I don't think my Christmas bonus would be all that big... maybe, then, the various Powers should only pay out if you have actually increased[/] their standing/income in a given cycle - perhaps fine you and/or reduce your faction standing(s) if you deliver to a loss making system? Or even go further - if your actions repeatedly cost money, they should stick a wanted notice on you. At least then the griefers will have to make a conscious decision to hurt their own game, as well as everyone else's.
Something also needs to be done about the cancelling effect of both sides reaching thresholds. It doesn't - to me - make sense that a successful action that is 10,000 over-threshold can be cancelled by a single over-target counter-action. If the action has passed the trigger, then to cancel there should be at least as much counter-action: Original succeed trigger 1000, achieved 7000... original counter trigger 1500, needs 10,500 to cancel. (Or do it on an absolute number basis: in this instance requiring counter to be 501 over pro to cancel).
Makes no odds to me whether players are taking part in solo, group or open - it's the crappily written and implemented rules of the game that kill this particular fish.
Off on a tangent, but - there should be no "available to these players" only content in the game. Prismatic shields should be available to all, given enough Cr, ditto the Cobra IV. By all means give them free, or at a discount for services rendered, but not to just xyz set.
Just my 2c.
If I were to cost my boss money each week by doing dumbass things day in, day out, I don't think my Christmas bonus would be all that big... maybe, then, the various Powers should only pay out if you have actually increased[/] their standing/income in a given cycle - perhaps fine you and/or reduce your faction standing(s) if you deliver to a loss making system? Or even go further - if your actions repeatedly cost money, they should stick a wanted notice on you. At least then the griefers will have to make a conscious decision to hurt their own game, as well as everyone else's.
Something also needs to be done about the cancelling effect of both sides reaching thresholds. It doesn't - to me - make sense that a successful action that is 10,000 over-threshold can be cancelled by a single over-target counter-action. If the action has passed the trigger, then to cancel there should be at least as much counter-action: Original succeed trigger 1000, achieved 7000... original counter trigger 1500, needs 10,500 to cancel. (Or do it on an absolute number basis: in this instance requiring counter to be 501 over pro to cancel).
Makes no odds to me whether players are taking part in solo, group or open - it's the crappily written and implemented rules of the game that kill this particular fish.
Off on a tangent, but - there should be no "available to these players" only content in the game. Prismatic shields should be available to all, given enough Cr, ditto the Cobra IV. By all means give them free, or at a discount for services rendered, but not to just xyz set.
Just my 2c.
If Horizons adds yet more ways of just mindlessly farming merits, simply building on the very mechanism that causes PP to be such a mess in the first place (IMHO), I'll give up! ie: I'd hate to see FD invest (waste) more time following the same approach. If FD have time to spend on PP, and simply extend it further down its current (questionable) approach, it's a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned given the myriad of other ways/areas that development effort could be spent on the core game!
Powerplay is just ill-conceived IMHO. It needs to be integrated into the core game rather than being some bolted on meta-board game.
Use local Factions, with missions to help your chosen Power, and most importantly, let the Powers decide what needs to be done where, and simply offer the missions accordingly. You then decide if you want to help them. Get rid of merits!
And most importantly, for goodness sake make the tasks (missions) more than just yet more mindless take A to B, or got to X and blow up Y. Surely a year in, the game can offer us more than that?:-
- Give us exploration missions.
- Give us covert spy missions in asteroid fields (using the new CQC line-of-sight scanner approach?).
- Give us convoy escort missions and convoy attack missions (PvP opportunity?).
- Put CQC type combat into the core game so you take up missions to offer fighter cover for a platform or capital ship or convoys etc...
In short, make PP a chance to give us more involved/interesting things to do, as well as affecting the politic fabric of the core systems (at the same time).
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This is not a PP is rubbish thread Neil.
It's about a specific aspect of it that is broken. Please beat your well worn drum in the appropriate thread.
Please.
Edit...I agree with you though, just not appropriate here.
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beating a broken drum here, but the problem with 5th Columing is not the activity itself, its the lack of any balanced way of countering it. It sometimes takes 5-10 times the level of activity to keep awful systems off the prep list. WHile there have been many innovative strategies developed to counter, ultimately powers are forced to eat the awful system.
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Fair point - Incase you didn't gather PP really annoys me
Hmm, not alone.
Frontier is so involved with PP... Impressive.
I agree. This is completely out of balance. I recall from the Sniping thread, Sandro Sammarco himself saying he definitely didn't want 1-5 players being able to majorly counter, or hamper, the actions of hundreds. Well this is happening, and its really, really dumb.
What's worse, with the stagnation in Fort/UM, the best way to help your Power, is to join another and sabotage them?!? Seriously? Frontier can't possibly think this good for the game.
Hi, fresh (read: new) perspective on this here from a new player who just pledged to Winters yesterday...
I spent 15 minutes trying to understand PP as much as I could (because who wants to spend more than 15 mins reading stuff during their "gaming time" window). Once I thought I got my head around it I flew to Rhea. Then grabbed some Liberal Flyer thingos, then checked where I could send them... #1 on the list? Barathaona.
"Righto, that must be the place everyone is pushing on because it's #1. Oh look, it's also relatively close to Rhea too so I can do a bunch of drops and increase my rep and start earning a tasty CR salary. Excellent!"
I did two trips (10 each) with the Liberal Flyer because it was close and I was earning rep with Winters. In my (beginner) mind, it was win/win.
Have you considered that maybe there ISN'T an evil group of dissidents inside the Winters camp, trying to stuff things up and INSTEAD, there are a bunch of freshly-minted CMDR's (from maybe hmm, the consoles?) that are doing runs from Rhea to Barataona purely because of the same circumstances I just outlined in my first foray into PP?
And the reason you're not seeing them is because they are on another platform, or like me, are so fresh they are still learning the game whilst in Private Group mode with a couple of mates.
You can't blame them really. The game is ridiculously unhelpful at teaching players about PP and then there is zero information on which systems to choose based on what you're faction is doing (apart from a 1-10 system ranking that is obviously HIGHLY prone to human error, thus being useless).
Right on. Poor documentation. Complex mechanic. That's why you also see systems near the HQ that are fortified to 500% and some are undermined to the tune of 300-400%... We call them "merit grinders"...
There is a substantial difference between merit grinders and active 5c. Merit grinders hurt their Power in that they are not effective merits, which isn't such a big deal, just kind of wasteful. 5c is completely different because it is organized players, who have to put forth relatively little effort to undo or sabotage the actions of hundreds. We know for a fact the 5c in Winter, this specific example, is a small number of people, who have no interest in merit grinding.
Merit grinding = merits wasted
5c = merits that damage a Power
This is part of the game that is working as intended. Sorry...but it always has been designed this way. <shrug> Play or not play. Do or not do. It is voluntary.
Yes, I do understand the difference. But in reply to the post I am quoting in my original message, there are definitely merit grinders that over-fortify, over-undermine and over-prepare those systems but there might well be people who don't have a clue. In the same vein, it is well possible that some non-educated players are also preparing systems that are a deficit for the power because they don't fully understand how PP works. Sorry, I didn't word my message properly. My point was that there might be a fifth column that is working against the power but there might well be people who don't understand the damage they're causing.
And Sandro says it is not in the best interest of the game for a few players to be able to greatly counter the actions of hundreds. It's a balance issue. I agree that 5c should be present in the game, as it it happens IRL. The problem is the damage that can be done is greatly imbalanced.
On a side note, been wayyy too long since I've been to Lugh. Haven't seen you IG in months Roybe. Will have to come by your House sometime!
Yes, and you are absolutely correct. As I'm a subr mod for Winter, I get PM's and comments from new players. I've had a few people say they were prepping Barathoana because it was on the top of our list, without knowing to look at the CC value. Problem is, it should've never been on the top of our list. 1 or 2 people put it there, so its totally out of balance.
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don't forget the lack of an effective way to shed those systems as well! If that were in place then their efforts might be limited to a cycle or two rather than the effective perpetuity it is now
Guys hi..
I dont know much of that powerplay so i have to ask!
What parameter do you look for and understand that something is really going wrong in the game?
And what it should be..
Thanks
To me, the things that are actually problematic, are those that bring imbalance to the game. When a handful of players can basically nullify the actions of hundreds, with little effort, there is a major problem. I think a lot of other people have many more criteria about what's good for the game, and what isn't, but personally, I'm rather liberal in this perspective. I think every individual should be able to play the game however they want.
Braben himself has stated he wants the individual to have little impact on the Galaxy, and we are all supposed to feel like an insignificant part of a much greater Universe. The 5c problem is directly contrary to this statement, as 1 or 2 players can have a major impact on the economic health of a Power through the Preparation and Expansion of loss making systems.
Shedding systems is a tough subject, imo. How many Powers have absolutely terrible default systems that would be shed immediately if that was possible? I haven't put much thought into the shedding systems subject, but for now, I just wish 1 or 2 people weren't able to destroy the CC economy of a Power that hundreds, or thousands of people contribute to in a productive manner.
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Shedding systems.....yes it needs looking at. I'm not convinced that once "in the fold" it is believable that powers should simply be able to get rid of a system. The system is loyal and therefore I do not see a believable RP reason to do it.
However perhaps if you think of control systems as "regional capitals" perhaps a new element of PP would allow inward investment by players to improve CC. Say "Infrastructure development aid"? Hit a threshold in a single cycle and CC increases +1 or similar?
I'm going to defend FD partially - joining another faction to sabotage it from the inside, otherwise known as fifth column strategies, is a legitimate strategy. HOWEVER, I did say partially because while it is a legitimate strategy, there is no such thing as balance with respect to that sabotage mechanic. (1) In one case we have hundreds, if not, thousands of players organized under one direction burning their resources to get things right to get the right systems which can be completely ruined by 1 player to a wing of players submitting preparation materials to very harmful systems. (2) In another case, we have dissenting groups in terms of which system to prepare and why.
For the first case, it might not be a problem for powers with a high population of players supporting it like ALD but it is very problematic for powers with low player populations. Average preparation values for the top 5 powers (save for ALD and AD) lie somewhere between 10000-20000. For the bottom 5, it's between 5000-10000. ALD has the player count to steamroll preparation values above and beyond 50000 without any particular planning and not to mention that their primary merit grinding activity is in expansion and control. (ALD is a horrible standard to base powerplay on. Frontier, if that is what you're doing, please stop and rethink your devplan). For the smaller population powers, it will take 1-2 people saboteurs grinding to maintain rank 5 (5334 merits each) to exceed the average 5-10k preparation value while loyal players scramble between preparing a decent system, supporting expansions to the decent systems, and fortifying their systems. Those few people sabotaging the power also don't face a real threat and are even rewarded the same amount as any other highly loyal player working for the good of their power.
The second case, nothing really wrong with it. People don't agree all the time but sometimes people will defend their beliefs at the cost of their arms and legs thinking that what they're doing is good. I'll bring up something from our power a few months back. We had a splinter group who wanted to take Phra Mool and stage a campaign towards Sol. They believed what they were doing was good and would be for the benefit of the power. They also don't really know much about mechanics considering AD is the farthest power from Sol and upkeep costs will cripple the power (even more). The race went on for two weeks and we had to get 5 systems above 35000 preparation value just to block their attempt to capture Phra Mool. Pranav Antal's Takurua can be seen as a parallel situation where there was not enough manpower to block the system from advancing into expansion and eventually into control.
Comparing to the basic Elite Dangerous gameplay - anyone is free to turn pirate or psychopath murderer but players are naturally discouraged by increasing amounts of hostility by NPCs, losing reputation with major factions, and rising active bounty amounts. In powerplay preparation, we don't get that natural discouragement from screwing up other peoples' 'good actions' by performing 'bad actions' like sabotage via fifth column strategies - to take the cake, those saboteurs are even paid at most 50m normally. Talk about bad management.
Once bad systems are taken in, getting rid of them is very difficult. In fact, there's no direct way of getting rid of them. AD has tried many strategies to get rid of bad systems in every stage (preparation, expansion, control). In preparation, we'd prepare a slightly more favorable system within 15ly of the terrible system (Like what Torval is doing with He Pola and Girdge). We'd outprepare horrible systems through 'brute force' as we did with Phra Mool. We'd pledge to another power so we can oppose our own expansions (Panganau and operation Nemain) which ultimately failed due to the unreasonable opposition ratios (3k expansion/26k opposition). We'd also pledge to another power to undermine our own systems (the week before operation Nemain) to hopefully get them in turmoil. All those solutions required a lot of resources, considerable effort, and an insane amount of coordination. The problem those solutions tried to address was caused by 1 to a small group of people dropping preparation materials into a particularly bad system and making a trade profit while doing so - all the while being paid the same 50m as everyone who is losing their hair trying to get things right.
Idea: People need to know that what they're doing is bad (for those who are genuinely unaware) and should be penalized for 'bad decisions/actions' like preparing a system that nets a negative amount of CC if taken under control, or fortifying a control system beyond 150%. Roleplay-wise, the people paying you 50m credits weekly should have records of where you earned your merits - why would they still pay you the 50m premium if all you did was allot it to somewhere that would screw over the entire power. Currently all players are equally incentivised regardless if their actions can be weighed as good or bad for the power. That is wrong and it needs to change. 21 weeks has been far too long a wait. EDIT: Oh and make overheads visible so people know that the 29 CC potential profit isn't actually 29 CC after overheads kick in.
More ideas: Partially taken from how community goals work - tiered preparation. Systems that you can prepare have that little 0/100 measurement which everyone ignores as they drop 400 tonnes of materials. 100 units is all you need to get your system listed in the top 10 at the start of the week. Why not block preparation at 500 units until another power puts in 20% of the current limit before opening the gates for a prep war. That would stop all internal preparation wars. Selection of which systems to allow into expansion could be done using the nominations (make it a different entity from the standard preparation materials). That in turn, will limit the damage saboteurs can do to how many people they are. If the power has enough CC to take in 10 systems, saboteurs could possibly introduce 1 or 2 bad systems into the mix (given there's a reasonable amount of them) but would have a harder time doing the same if the power only can afford 5 or less systems. Two people should not be able to screw up the efforts of hundreds of people.
And Frontier, introducing a weekly-timed gameplay such as powerplay needs weekly attention. We're at the 21st week and much of the problems we're complaining about is the same as the ones we have been going on about since week 11. Focusing on Horizons is not an excuse to ignore the pressing problems powerplay has been facing. The more this persists, the bigger the problem will be.
For the first case, it might not be a problem for powers with a high population of players supporting it like ALD but it is very problematic for powers with low player populations. Average preparation values for the top 5 powers (save for ALD and AD) lie somewhere between 10000-20000. For the bottom 5, it's between 5000-10000. ALD has the player count to steamroll preparation values above and beyond 50000 without any particular planning and not to mention that their primary merit grinding activity is in expansion and control. (ALD is a horrible standard to base powerplay on. Frontier, if that is what you're doing, please stop and rethink your devplan). For the smaller population powers, it will take 1-2 people saboteurs grinding to maintain rank 5 (5334 merits each) to exceed the average 5-10k preparation value while loyal players scramble between preparing a decent system, supporting expansions to the decent systems, and fortifying their systems. Those few people sabotaging the power also don't face a real threat and are even rewarded the same amount as any other highly loyal player working for the good of their power.
The second case, nothing really wrong with it. People don't agree all the time but sometimes people will defend their beliefs at the cost of their arms and legs thinking that what they're doing is good. I'll bring up something from our power a few months back. We had a splinter group who wanted to take Phra Mool and stage a campaign towards Sol. They believed what they were doing was good and would be for the benefit of the power. They also don't really know much about mechanics considering AD is the farthest power from Sol and upkeep costs will cripple the power (even more). The race went on for two weeks and we had to get 5 systems above 35000 preparation value just to block their attempt to capture Phra Mool. Pranav Antal's Takurua can be seen as a parallel situation where there was not enough manpower to block the system from advancing into expansion and eventually into control.
Comparing to the basic Elite Dangerous gameplay - anyone is free to turn pirate or psychopath murderer but players are naturally discouraged by increasing amounts of hostility by NPCs, losing reputation with major factions, and rising active bounty amounts. In powerplay preparation, we don't get that natural discouragement from screwing up other peoples' 'good actions' by performing 'bad actions' like sabotage via fifth column strategies - to take the cake, those saboteurs are even paid at most 50m normally. Talk about bad management.
Once bad systems are taken in, getting rid of them is very difficult. In fact, there's no direct way of getting rid of them. AD has tried many strategies to get rid of bad systems in every stage (preparation, expansion, control). In preparation, we'd prepare a slightly more favorable system within 15ly of the terrible system (Like what Torval is doing with He Pola and Girdge). We'd outprepare horrible systems through 'brute force' as we did with Phra Mool. We'd pledge to another power so we can oppose our own expansions (Panganau and operation Nemain) which ultimately failed due to the unreasonable opposition ratios (3k expansion/26k opposition). We'd also pledge to another power to undermine our own systems (the week before operation Nemain) to hopefully get them in turmoil. All those solutions required a lot of resources, considerable effort, and an insane amount of coordination. The problem those solutions tried to address was caused by 1 to a small group of people dropping preparation materials into a particularly bad system and making a trade profit while doing so - all the while being paid the same 50m as everyone who is losing their hair trying to get things right.
Idea: People need to know that what they're doing is bad (for those who are genuinely unaware) and should be penalized for 'bad decisions/actions' like preparing a system that nets a negative amount of CC if taken under control, or fortifying a control system beyond 150%. Roleplay-wise, the people paying you 50m credits weekly should have records of where you earned your merits - why would they still pay you the 50m premium if all you did was allot it to somewhere that would screw over the entire power. Currently all players are equally incentivised regardless if their actions can be weighed as good or bad for the power. That is wrong and it needs to change. 21 weeks has been far too long a wait. EDIT: Oh and make overheads visible so people know that the 29 CC potential profit isn't actually 29 CC after overheads kick in.
More ideas: Partially taken from how community goals work - tiered preparation. Systems that you can prepare have that little 0/100 measurement which everyone ignores as they drop 400 tonnes of materials. 100 units is all you need to get your system listed in the top 10 at the start of the week. Why not block preparation at 500 units until another power puts in 20% of the current limit before opening the gates for a prep war. That would stop all internal preparation wars. Selection of which systems to allow into expansion could be done using the nominations (make it a different entity from the standard preparation materials). That in turn, will limit the damage saboteurs can do to how many people they are. If the power has enough CC to take in 10 systems, saboteurs could possibly introduce 1 or 2 bad systems into the mix (given there's a reasonable amount of them) but would have a harder time doing the same if the power only can afford 5 or less systems. Two people should not be able to screw up the efforts of hundreds of people.
And Frontier, introducing a weekly-timed gameplay such as powerplay needs weekly attention. We're at the 21st week and much of the problems we're complaining about is the same as the ones we have been going on about since week 11. Focusing on Horizons is not an excuse to ignore the pressing problems powerplay has been facing. The more this persists, the bigger the problem will be.
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One thing thats a "quick and easy" thing to do would be to have system rankings also show the top contributors for PP actions such as preparation, undermining, and so on.
We already have the top bounties list - with the list of top players pushing a particular action as well theres room for "community justice" to be done to them if that action is harmful. On the other hand it might also encourage them as a badge of honour.
We already have the top bounties list - with the list of top players pushing a particular action as well theres room for "community justice" to be done to them if that action is harmful. On the other hand it might also encourage them as a badge of honour.