Yup...Let's also not lose focus of the fact that those shooting them can still unlock them, and continue to shoot them... if they're a big enough target, and you get close enough, you don't even need to do that. =)
Another request to balance chaff units
- Thread starter NeilF
- Start date
Yup...Let's also not lose focus of the fact that those shooting them can still unlock them, and continue to shoot them... if they're a big enough target, and you get close enough, you don't even need to do that. =)
Perhaps you could focus on backing up your 'chaff spamming NPCs' claim before continuing further? It somewhat clouds my respect for your opinions if you are unable to verify this. I have attempted to & not seen any evidence to support your claim.
Just as well that the post you quoted was a fact, and not an opinion then...
You can unlock and continue to shoot a target that's using chaff... if they are a big target, and you get close enough, you won't miss them, even if you don't unlock them. Both facts.
and neither add to the discussion, because you can do that at any point. Your point about NPCs spamming chaff could, if demonstrated to be more than a simple misunderstanding, undermine Neil's point.
I don't particularly favour Neil's proposed solution, but I agree it's an issue that's worth debating. You appear to be just repeating the same couple of points over & over without bringing anything new to the table. I'd be quite happy to be incorrect in my belief that you are mistaken.
To be clear, I agree (and it is so obvious by now in this thread that is does not need to be repeated) that de-targeting your opponent is a way to bypass the effects of chaff at significant cost. However there is no significant cost to the chaff itself. I believe there should be. Is that clear enough?
We know this, but you do this at a lost of lock, and target information, and obviously reduced weapon damage (compared to fixed flavour).
In short, the two points significant points being made are:-
1) Because of questionable balancing, PvP tends to end up with individuals chain spamming chaff, because it is so effective against gimbals and turrets. This detracts from game play because:-
- It means people who happen to be using turrets/gimbals are immediately significantly penalised. Not only are their weapons potentially not able to hit effectively, they do less damage than fixed variations, and also lose all target information.
- Variety is damaged. Why offer weapons if they are not particularly viable and so easy "nerfed" for minutes at a time?
2) Because of the current poor balancing of chaff, NPCs are not permitted to use them in the same fashion as CMDRs do, as it would upset a huge proportion of the community, as if highlighting the imbalance/problem.
So IMHO - The simplest solution would seem to be to limit the frequency/length of chaff such that they cannot form a constant shield over long periods of time. Now whether you agree with this proposal or not, is fine. But it's clear IMHO there is a problem that needs addressing, and just as NPCs were "banned" from Powerplant sniping, and "banned" from SCB spamming because those tactics were counter productive due to poor balancing and design, I think its more than a coincidence that NPC are also "banned" from chaff spamming, because this would highlight a similar poor mechanic.
My prefered solution is to do away with fixed and gimbals and create a single unified weapon that offers limited gimbal functionality, and rewards better aim by doing more damage when the target is kept directly ahead. In this way better flying is rewarded (with more damage being done), and we do not end up with needless situation where people have to simply fly away because their choice of "paper" has been nerfed by someones choice of "scissors". Worse case allow the ability to flick the weapon between fixed and gimballed so the one weapon can be used in both (existing) ways... But let's be frank. This will never happen... FD have made their bed now with gimbals and fixed...
Last edited:
I don't need to bring anything new to the table. He hasn't gotten past the first hurdle yet.
His suggestion is, that chaff is overpowered because what? You can't hit a target that's using chaff? Well you can. You can use fixed weapons. If you don't have fixed weapons you can unlock your tgt, He's basically asking to make using gimballed weapons easier... As if it isn't easy enough.
Let's not forget that when you do hit your tgt with your unlocked dual purpose fixed/gimbals, that you are doing more damage, because for every chaff launcher that you equip, that's a Shield Booster that isn't equipped.
So there is in fact a cost to using chaff.
From what I can see, there's no good reason to touch chaff. It's easily countered by those who can be bothered. If Neil quit waiting for the chaff to stop, and kept shooting with unlocked fixed, within a week, he'd see that it isn't as big a problem as he thinks it is.
Last edited:
Yes he has. It has already been shown it happens. There are multiple threads of people complaining about chaff spamming (they call it cheating) NPCs in the main forum.
If you won't believe what people are telling you they have experienced, why would we accept anything you say without the same level of proof? You are not special.
Once we go down that road, might as well put on the wigs and robes, because that is what it will devolve into.
Last edited:
10fps? Lol... if only... it isn't needed to prove that gimbals aren't as badly affected by chaff as the OP suggests, pal. ;-)
The fact is, there are ways around it, and there are sacrifices to shield strength that must be made to use multiple chaff launchers.
If it's that big a problem for him, he could always simply not fight the players using chaff. Nobody is forcing him. What happens if he decides next week that small ships are too maneuverable, and that this is an insurmountable problem? Do we nerf the maneuverability to suit his inability to take steps to overcome a simple problem?
Last edited:
So your solution is to remove the preferred weapon choice of many pilots, because you aren't able to use them effectively? Lol...
I think there's choices and sacrifices that need to be made with your loadouts, that already reward skilled pilots. Many of whom prefer fixed weapons, but it seems that doesn't matter to you. You'd prefer to remove that preference than take the time to get proficient with them yourself.
It's not rock paper scissors at all. That analogy only works with unbeatable hard counters. As you can still shoot and kill a target that has chaff with gimballed weapons, it doesn't qualify as a hard counter in any way.
You don't need tgt info. Very little of it is useful practically. I can see which way a tgt is heading. I can see if they are getting closer or moving away. I don't need to see his hull percent, because I'm committed. I need to shoot the tgt until it dies.... which shouldn't take long as they have no shield boosters. This is also why your lower damage is fair.
Last edited:
No problem, pal.. can I borrow your super computer?
As for "nothing else, please"... Unfortunately, logic dictates the relevant facts... the chaffing NPCs are an aside, and not necessary to defeat the argument.
Just in case you're having trouble keeping up, the OP's argument is that chaff is OP because they "keep his gimbals at bay."... While your corollary to this, is that "there is no downside."
Both arguments are easily defeated...
- You can unlock tgts and use gimbals as fixed weapons.
- If you can't use fixed weapons right now, you will be able to with some practice.
- If you are unable to become proficient with fixed weapons, you can simply choose to not fight a chaffing opponent.
- Neil's solution removes a gameplay option that many enjoy, for no other reason than he's not able to use them, and not willing to try.
- Your argument that chaff had no downside, is factually incorrect. Chaff takes up a hardpoint that Neil likely uses for Shield Boosters, meaning that to use chaff, you sacrifice shield strength.
Anyhow, as I'm tired of arguing irrelevant points with someone devoid of logic, I'll be giving you pride of place as the first person on my ignore list.. Toodles.
Been thinking about this issue a bit more as 'Riverside' reply helped me see how there is an unbalance in the way chaff can force one style of game play. But I don't like the idea of adding a delay to counteract this problem (just doesn't seem organic), that's just patching a problem not fixing it. So I check out what chaff is and started to do a bit of futurology thinking (what things may be like in the future) and came up with this...
Chaff basically scatters the single between a target and aggressors sensor (like a heavy rain show can block your view), its not a thermal thing normally, but in ED, that stuff looks hot! (maybe in ED its both). Chaff Causes the sensor to loose lock as it cant gain enough information on the target. This is where Chaff seems wrong to me, as in this day and age we already have technology that can discern objects from limited visual data. I guess in the time of ED, computers may be a bit better, maybe even 2x as good
Its not correct that we can look at a target chaffing and see it well enough to aim at it, and year 3000 technology cant. I'm not saying that the Ships computer should never lose lock, that would be silly and no fun (but maybe correct when looking at chaff, a very old idea) but I think there should be a distance factor.
Say a ship is within 1k, the ships computer should be able to use is 'Xbox Kinect' system to map out the ships shape and distance enough to target it but unable to select sub targets. This would retain the defensive value of chaff as it can still be used at distance and reduce its effectiveness as a 'Chaff Sheild' in PvP.
Chaff basically scatters the single between a target and aggressors sensor (like a heavy rain show can block your view), its not a thermal thing normally, but in ED, that stuff looks hot! (maybe in ED its both). Chaff Causes the sensor to loose lock as it cant gain enough information on the target. This is where Chaff seems wrong to me, as in this day and age we already have technology that can discern objects from limited visual data. I guess in the time of ED, computers may be a bit better, maybe even 2x as good
Its not correct that we can look at a target chaffing and see it well enough to aim at it, and year 3000 technology cant. I'm not saying that the Ships computer should never lose lock, that would be silly and no fun (but maybe correct when looking at chaff, a very old idea) but I think there should be a distance factor. Say a ship is within 1k, the ships computer should be able to use is 'Xbox Kinect' system to map out the ships shape and distance enough to target it but unable to select sub targets. This would retain the defensive value of chaff as it can still be used at distance and reduce its effectiveness as a 'Chaff Sheild' in PvP.
Last edited:
Show me your warrant.
You have no right to make demands like this to stall a discussion. It is unproductive and is bordering on bullying.
IF you are unwilling to accept another pilots, quite a few in fact reporting multiple chaffs, word at what they seen in game, perhaps you don;t have the basic skills needed to participate in a friendly conversation. If we are all drinking and eating pizza together and B.Sing about the intellectual equivalent of who is better, Wolverine or Batman (This is just a game, remember) , and you tell me something like say, Batman has armor the can stop Wolverines claws, I don't turn around and demand evidence that it can happen. We just keep discussing the issue from our point of view.
That is all. I will block you, and possibly report you if you keep up the anti-social behavior.
Last edited:
Lol or you like, if you feel that's better shows your mindset than reasoned debate.
I absolutely agree skill should reward. However, I do not see how a defacto (forced?) standard of multiple chaff units, and fixed weapons equates to skill though.
And consider how would my proposed solution where a weapon offers some gimballed behaviour, but also delivers more damaged when the target is kept direcly ahead not reward skill? And how would this mean more CMDRs wouldn't simply find themselves not "tooled up" for PvE or PvP, but instead are able to fight more battles they face, rather than simply being out "papered" because the opponent has "stone" this time around.
And once again, you use jibes instead of reason, and ignore the point(s) at hand. Why is this?
How does the ability to nerf gimbals and turrets, for minute(s) on end, equate to skill, or indeed anything +ve within the game.
Indeed, a mechanic that NPCs are banned from using because of how unbalanced it is. Please supply a video, by any means, showing this is not the case?
Not so. I even suggested unifying the weapons and allowing you to simply toggle between two modes, gimbal and fixed, so you in effect can use the weapons as either type we currently have, thus meaning everyone can flick between the two varieties of weapon use as the sitation dictates. More variety, more chance to show your skill.
Last edited:
I prefer my solution : Remove gimbaled weapon from the game, no more chaft probleme and every pilots need to be skilled
Been thinking about this issue a bit more as 'Riverside' replay help me see how there is an unbalance in the way chaff can force one style of game play. But I don't like the idea of adding a delay to counteract this problem (just doesn't seem organic), that's just patching a problem not fixing it. So I check out what chaff is and started to do a bit of futurology thinking (what things may be like in the future) and came up with this...
Chaff basically scatters the single between a target and aggressors sensor (like a heavy rain show can block your view), its not a thermal thing normally, but in ED, that stuff looks hot! (maybe in ED its both). Chaff Causes the sensor to loose lock as it cant gain enough information on the target. This is where Chaff seems wrong to me, as in this day and age we already have technology that can discern objects from limited visual data. I guess in the time of ED, computers may be a bit better, maybe even 2x as good
Say a ship is within 1k, the ships computer should be able to use is 'Xbox Kinect' system to map out the ships shape and distance enough to target it but unable to select sub targets. This would retain the defensive value of chaff as it can still be used at distance and reduce its effectiveness as a 'Chaff Sheild' in PvP.
I agree... I'd love to see some sensible solution that means it's not a blanket shield.
And what you mention here about chaff only being affective in relation to distance might be an interesting idea.... So basically you're suggesting chaff is less effective the close you get? Hmmm... Interesting...
I'd be up for that - I think having two different weapon approaches has damaged ED. But, some of the slower ships of course need gimbals to help don't you think? And your proposal in no way helps with the chaff shield to turrets?I prefer my solution : Remove gimbaled weapon from the game, no more chaft probleme and every pilots need to be skilled
Worse case unify fixed and gimbals and allow you to switch between the two modes. With each mode behaving basically the same as the current flavours of weapon. Fixed mode doing more damage. Gimbal having a greater firing arc at reduced damage.
Personally I'd penalise gimbal mode more, with the further off true you are, the less damage it does.
Last edited:
I must admit, as PVE and PVP player, i have no problems with chaff. If i m in fixed weapon, it s useless and my target have less shield booster = great
If i m with a more PvE fitt and carry some gimbaled weapons, i just delock my target and kill...
My only concern is with gimabaled weapons, it make the game and the PVE toooooooo easy and unskilled, with or without chaff.
About turrets, no issues, a big ship wouldn't be alone and basicaly light ships (chaff fitt or not) must be down by your escort.
If i m with a more PvE fitt and carry some gimbaled weapons, i just delock my target and kill...
My only concern is with gimabaled weapons, it make the game and the PVE toooooooo easy and unskilled, with or without chaff.
About turrets, no issues, a big ship wouldn't be alone and basicaly light ships (chaff fitt or not) must be down by your escort.
Why do you need to distinguish between PvE and PvP layout? And doesn't this instantly mean that should a player with your proposed PvE layout, be interedicted by a PvP layout player, he's at a possible needless disadvantage?
Now just for one moment consider the following two changes, and imagine it ingame, and see what you recon:-
1) Gimbals and fixed are unified into a single weapon. You flick between firing it in gimballed mode (exactly like current gimbals), or fixed (exactly like current fixed). Gimbals are maybe reduced down a tad in the amount of damage they do, and the size of their firing arc too.
2) The gimbal damage is reduced the greater the angle its firing at.
Out of interest, put yourself through some imaginary scenarios... What problems do you see?
Now bring chaff into this? Hasn't this proposal help balance the chaff spam issue?
Last edited: