External View [A definitive discussion]

[Theodrid]

What other arguments where there? Could you link any please? There are a lot of counter arguments here and quite a few simply don't take into account the OP proposal.

Just off the top of my head there was the combat scenario, i.e. when are you in combat?, for example gaining a tactical positional advantage in a Nebula system, asteroid field, behind a capital ship whatever. The counter that 3rd person is out of combat only is vague to say the least, if, you can get a significant tactical advantage positionally before a shot has been fired and have your 'shoot first' and/or potential escape vectors planned through using some aspect of 3pv then you have gained an advantage. Even if that advantage is small it is an advantage nonetheless.

 

[NeilF]

Just off the top of my head there was the combat scenario, i.e. when are you in combat?, for example gaining a tactical positional advantage in a Nebula system, asteroid field, behind a capital ship whatever. The counter that 3rd person is out of combat only is vague to say the least, if, you can get a significant tactical advantage positionally before a shot has been fired and have your 'shoot first' and/or potential escape vectors planned through using some aspect of 3pv then you have gained an advantage. Even if that advantage is small it is an advantage nonetheless.

You've possibly misunderstood something as the suggested limitations in the OP make no distinction between "combat" and "non-combat".

They are a set of simple consistent rules that apply across the board.

They attempt to ensure there is no advantage from using external view in combat, and generally I suspect most users would find it actually a disadvantage, which is the intended goal. ie: It won't be a nice place to play the game from.



To keep things in perspective - I would still stand by my suggestion that every OR user will have a bigger advantage over regular users than any potential gain from a nerfed external view. And this is a small group of users having a constant advantage, rather than all users having the same functionality. Now, which is the greater "unfair advantage"?

 

[Theodrid]

You've possibly misunderstood something as the suggested limitations in the OP make no distinction between "combat" and "non-combat".

They are a set of simple consistent rules that apply across the board.

They attempt to ensure there is no advantage from using external view in combat, and generally I suspect most users would find it actually a disadvantage, which is the intended goal. ie: It won't be a nice place to play the game from.

No, I didn't misunderstand Neil, as I said in a previous post you can gain some combat/tactical advantage over a ship you want to attack before a shot has been fired. You can be in 3rd POV. You can be venting heat so you are shining like a star and with your increased FOV, spot where you want to be in relation to your 'target', or kind of spy on said target. You can then take 5, 6, 10 seconds, to hop back in your ship and with a better understanding of your targets position, how you want to attack, possible escape vectors etc you have gained a combat advantage.

 

[Dejay]

What is mean is no non combat. External view is available in combat but useless. Also not usable for hiding behind an asteroid because of "running hot" with external view.

 

[NeilF]

No, I didn't misunderstand Neil, as I said in a previous post you can gain some combat/tactical advantage over a ship you want to attack before a shot has been fired. You can be in 3rd POV. You can be venting heat so you are shining like a star and with your increased FOV, spot where you want to be in relation to your 'target', or kind of spy on said target. You can then take 5, 6, 10 seconds, to hop back in your ship and with a better understanding of your targets position, how you want to attack, possible escape vectors etc you have gained a combat advantage.

I'm confused. So the advantage you're suggesting is being able to see a few tens of degrees more than from the cockpit? All the time you're in this view you have the penalty of not even being able to see any ship at all approaching on your scanner. Or being able to lock onto any ship with your weapons. Or being able to configure anything on your ships. And having an X second lack of control when you leave the view (dock the droid). And all this without yet suggesting the additional penalty of running hot so you stand out like a sore thumb while in external view.

Meanwhile, another pilot in their cockpit would not have any of these penalties, and indeed if they had a OC, would have instant access to nigh on a instant 180 degrees+ of vision in many angles.

I fail to see any real advantage, and can certainly see a list of disadvantages that would outweigh any.

 

[Theodrid]

Well that is the point of view of the 'pro 3rd person' camp isn't it? Those against it do see it as an advantage, however small or large the mythical, (not sounding off that is what it is at this stage), increased FOV is. The scenario I outlined above is one example, the problem is the 'target' has no idea of your intentions, it won't matter if you are running hot or if it takes you an age to get back in the cockpit because if that target is minding his/her own business, mining, prospecting, taking in the sights and you do not seem like a threat then you have an advantage.

EDIT :- Neil, I have realised from things you have said in this thread that you are unlikely to exploit any advantage this would give you. Sadly however, there will be those that will and whether it is a 1% advantage, a 10% advantage or a 500% advantage it is still an advantage. And some people will think the possible reward of this advantage outweighs the risk unlike yourself.

 

[NeilF]

Well that is the point of view of the 'pro 3rd person' camp isn't it? Those against it do see it as an advantage, however small or large the mythical, (not sounding off that is what it is at this stage), increased FOV is. The scenario I outlined above is one example, the problem is the 'target' has no idea of your intentions, it won't matter if you are running hot or if it takes you an age to get back in the cockpit because if that target is minding his/her own business, mining, prospecting, taking in the sights and you do not seem like a threat then you have an advantage.

EDIT :- Neil, I have realised from things you have said in this thread that you are unlikely to exploit any advantage this would give you. Sadly however, there will be those that will and whether it is a 1% advantage, a 10% advantage or a 500% advantage it is still an advantage. And some people will think the possible reward of this advantage outweighs the risk unlike yourself.

I'm so very sorry. I really cannot see what advantage the proposed external view gives you in your scenario. So you're looking entirely visually in external view at another ship (or ships) to gain some sort of tactical advantage.

And this view is nothing that cannot be seen from your cockpit, possibly even more immediately/quicker with an OR (or similar), and definately better with the scanner available in your cockpit. ie: You'll be able to see ships on your scanner you cannot see visually etc.

Add to this, the fact you also won't have any other HUD facilities in external view, and should you come under attack - from the 5 ships around you you didn't happen to notice, but which are clear as day on the scanner you don't have available in external view - it'll take you 4-5 seconds to even get back into your cockpit to do anything about it.

I see nothing but a series of disadvantages and risks...

 

[Theodrid]

Even if the advantage is only a 'slight' increase in FOV it is still an advantage Neil, you must see that? And I say again, just because any perceived 'risk' is unacceptable to you does not mean it will be unacceptable to others/everyone.

 

[NeilF]

Even if the advantage is only a 'slight' increase in FOV it is still an advantage Neil, you must see that? And I say again, just because any perceived 'risk' is unacceptable to you does not mean it will be unacceptable to others/everyone.

Two things here:-

1) If any supposed advantage comes with so many clear disadvantages & risks, is it still advantage?
2) I'd suggest an OC and widescreen monitor setup gives individuals a FOV advantage as they can look around far more dynamically/better. I'd suggest that every player with an OC has a clear combat advantage in every battle they take part in. (I've seen OC users saying this advantage exists!)

(1) Is available equally to all users, equally. It's question if any true advantage even exists.
(2) There is a definate advantage. It is only available to a minority.

Which is more unfair?

 

[Barns]

Even if the advantage is only a 'slight' increase in FOV it is still an advantage Neil, you must see that? And I say again, just because any perceived 'risk' is unacceptable to you does not mean it will be unacceptable to others/everyone.

Solution. When in 3rd person view, along with whatever other restrictions are decided, just simply don't render any other player ships that hadn't already been rendered in cockpit view mode within the last 30s.

This means if you see a lovely slow moving convoy of peaceful player anacondas cruising past, you can nip out to 3rd person to take a pic. But if a pirate is stalking you and you haven't "spotted" them already in cockpit mode, they won't be visible in 3rd person at all no matter where you look.

Seems easy to implement to me.

Or, just make it only available in solo mode...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Fair comment... But are you suggesting someone with an OR or widescreen setup will not have an obvious advantage over a regular player as regards with FOV, and accessibility to it?

I suspect it would be niave to suggest the addition of an OR is not a clear combat advantage?


Now keeping this in mind, we have people seemingly talking about an nerfed external view being a deal breaker, when the only scenario I've thusfar seen given is hiding behind a possible rotating/moving asteroid, with no hud and scanner, in the hope someone happens to fly through the extra few tens of degrees of FOV they have when using an external view. And this of course, even if we even agree it is an advantage, is an advantage that anyone/everyone can use...

Now compare this to an OR which is a constant advantage in all combat scenarios... always... with no negatives at all... only to a minority of players. Can you not see how this might make the argument thusfar raised about hiding behing an asteroid (with no scanners or a HUD, and control penalties) somewhat trivial when there's clearly far bigger imbalances right infront of our noses?


ps: I am in no way suggesting the game shouldn't make use of OR. But clearly it unbalanced the game (combat) far more than the suggested external view.

Players with OR or a wider FOV will look out of the cockpit in the same way as other players. The OR does allow continuous headlook functionality and a wider FOV may see all of the view out of the cockpit all of the time. Neither allows more of a view from the cockpit than is available to other players.

Realtime headlook must confer some advantage on a player with that equipment - it's the way that gaming may be going and for Frontier not to support it in this game would be commercially disadvantageous.

Hiding behind asteroids would be one thing. Knowing where the stealthed pilot behind you is (by seeing muzzle flash) is another. Put simply, being able to see beyond the edges of the cockpit screen confers advantage.

.... and I disagree with your summary.

 

[NeilF]

Solution. When in 3rd person view, along with whatever other restrictions are decided, just simply don't render any other player ships that hadn't already been rendered in cockpit view mode within the last 30s.

This means if you see a lovely slow moving convoy of peaceful player anacondas cruising past, you can nip out to 3rd person to take a pic. But if a pirate is stalking you and you haven't "spotted" them already in cockpit mode, they won't be visible in 3rd person at all no matter where you look.

Seems easy to implement to me.

Or, just make it only available in solo mode...

Sounds far too contrived IMHO. Sorry.

I still don't see how Theodrid's example of looking at some ships in external view is an advantage. All the time you have no scanner or systems from the HUD. And you're not seeing anything visually you couldn't see from the cockpit (possibly even better with an OR) while still having all your systems available.

 

[Theodrid]

Two things here:-

1) If any supposed advantage comes with so many clear disadvantages & risks, is it still advantage?
2) I'd suggest an OC and widescreen monitor setup gives individuals a FOV advantage as they can look around far more dynamically/better. I'd suggest that every player with an OC has a clear combat advantage in every battle they take part in. (I've seen OC users saying this advantage exists!)

(1) Is available equally to all users.
(2) Is available to a minority.

Which is more unfair?

I will counter that with :-

1) - To some yes, you maybe not, but to some.
2) - You do have a valid point in relation to OR, widescreen setups and the like but you cannot use that as an argument in your favour really, here's why. Just because x, y or z offers some advantage is no reason to have yet another one in game, in fact I would say that the fewer advantages the better, even if it is one off the list. The argument that people have OR, widescreen etc leads nowhere, I mean what next? You have an advantage if you have an aweosme rig with higher fps, you have an advantage if you have HOTAS, this is all true, but it is true of all games. The argument that one exists therefore so should the other is redundant imo.

 

[NeilF]

Knowing where the stealthed pilot behind you is (by seeing muzzle flash) is another. Put simply, being able to see beyond the edges of the cockpit screen confers advantage.

Let's run with this example.

You get hit... So you flick to external view. For 4-5 seconds (while your drone is deployed) you have no control of your ship. That's 4-5 seconds while you continue to be a sitting duck.

You now look around in external view. You have no scanner or HUD now. Assuming you glean some sort of useful visual information, you now have another 4-5 seconds without control while you dock your droid. ie: Another 4-5 seconds of being a sitting duck.


Now consider the same scenario with an OR. You roll your ship around while quickly looking around in all directions - which you can do with an OR - and see the direction from which the fire is coming from.


Which scenario sounds more survivable?



ps: And this is ignoring the suggested limitation (which I don't see the point of) of not rendering ships or fire of ships not shown on your scanner while in external view. This of course completely does away with your issue?

 

[Theodrid]

I get what you are saying mate I really do but just because there is one advantage in the game that may or may not be greater than an increased FOV advantage is no argument in your favour. In fact what is better, 2 possible advantages, (OR/widescreen) or 3 (OR/Widescreen/3rd person FOV)?

I'd rather only have 2 possible advantages against me rather than 3. (just as an example)

 

[Robert Maynard]

Let's run with this example.

You get hit... So you flick to external view. For 4-5 seconds (while your drone is deployed) you have no control of your ship. That's 4-5 seconds while you continue to be a sitting duck.

You now look around in external view. You have no scanner or HUD now. Assuming you glean some sort of useful visual information, you now have another 4-5 seconds without control while you dock your droid. ie: Another 4-5 seconds of being a sitting duck.


Now consider the same scenario with an OR. You roll your ship around while quickly looking around in all directions - which you can do with an OR - and see the direction from which the fire is coming from.


Which scenario sounds more survivable?



ps: And this is ignoring the suggested limitation (which I don't see the point of) of not rendering ships or fire of ships not shown on your scanner while in external view. This of course completely does away with your issue?

Any player can roll their ship around and use headlook to scan visually for other ships. Whether OR is used or not does not change this, only using OR makes it faster and smoother.

There will be those for whom a delay deploying the drone is unacceptable and some might accept that delay but balk at the delay on recovering the drone and would prefer to abandon it. Losing the HUD and the windscreen view are assumptions in your proposal - they may not happen.

Not displaying ships in external view that are not on the scanner would be as unrealistic as having a magic eye in space.

 

[Barns]

I get what you are saying mate I really do but just because there is one advantage in the game that may or may not be greater than an increased FOV advantage is no argument in your favour. In fact what is better, 2 possible advantages, (OR/widescreen) or 3 (OR/Widescreen/3rd person FOV)?

I'd rather only have 2 possible advantages against me rather than 3. (just as an example)

I'm just really sad that already, in early alpha, everyone's fixated on "balance" rather than "fun". Every multiplayer game ends up going this route and it sucks all the joy out of the experience unless your sole goal is to PvP. Every cool exciting possible option gets shot down because OMG it might give 0.01% advantage to a hypothetical adversary so oh noes "I will be forced to use it even though I hate it!!1".

Yet another reason to dislike PvP in my book; it skews every game design decision to bow before the almighty altar of BALANCE. Nothing is more important.

 

[Theodrid]

I'm just really sad that already, in early alpha, everyone's fixated on "balance" rather than "fun". Every multiplayer game ends up going this route and it sucks all the joy out of the experience unless your sole goal is to PvP. Every cool exciting possible option gets shot down because OMG it might give 0.01% advantage to a hypothetical adversary so oh noes "I will be forced to use it even though I hate it!!1".

Yet another reason to dislike PvP in my book; it skews every game design decision to bow before the almighty altar of BALANCE. Nothing is more important.

I understand what you are saying, I really do. Let me be clear, of all the proposals I have seen since I joined this is the only one I have had a counter argument too. And, this is not because I am obsessed with 'balance' or because I am a PVP'er only, in fact, I am mainly a PVE'er who PVP's occasionally in other MMO's. I do not intend to ever instigate PVP in E: D, though if attacked I will defend myself rather than run, (well, when appropriate!). The PVP'ers that want to gain an advantage over others are what worries me in this regard.

 

[Barns]

Not displaying ships in external view that are not on the scanner would be as unrealistic as having a magic eye in space.

So what? You don't use it if you don't like it. It's a suggestion so that people who do like taking pretty shots don't get an advantage in seeing ships they shouldn't. I don't see your problem with it; it's not supposed to be "realistic", it's supposed to be a utility to take screenshots. At least that was my intent. The same level of "realism" as pressing Esc to bring up the game menu to change an option.

It's like saying "I don't like ingame music, I know there's an option to turn it off but instead of that it should be taken out of the game entirely!". What's wrong with options that don't create imbalance, even options you might not want to use yourself?

 

[Barns]

I understand what you are saying, I really do. Let me be clear, of all the proposals I have seen since I joined this is the only one I have had a counter argument too. And, this is not because I am obsessed with 'balance' or because I am a PVP'er only, in fact, I am mainly a PVE'er who PVP's occasionally in other MMO's. I do not intend to ever instigate PVP in E: D, though if attacked I will defend myself rather than run, (well, when appropriate!). The PVP'ers that want to gain an advantage over others are what worries me in this regard.

Yeah ok. But this has really simple ways to completely remove any balance issue entirely.

a) "Don't show ships you haven't already seen" idea above, or
b) Only allow 3rd person in solo mode.

Are either of those objectionable?