Incompetence in game design

[Ydiss]

I agree. Another example of terrible game design is Pacman, when you make a mistake and walk right into a ghost without taking a power pill first. Game over.

Horrible.

ED should remove this and make it so you can play without fear of penalty for making key mistakes. Bounty hunting should be the same, every time you play. No random chance. You fly out, shoot some bad guys, fly home and get paid.

Needing to take care and have a strong understanding of situational awareness, using all the visual and audio aids at your disposal, is simply asking far too much for today's modern gamer.

Fines shouldn't even be possible. The game should have an algorithm that computationally determines human intent and fines should only happen if you go on a rampage, destroying a ship. It's not important that no one could defend themselves if you attack them. It's more important that accidents due to lacking experience and practice should never result in a 400cr fine that can be expunged within 7 minutes.

And when you approach a station to pay off a fine, the game should use advanced trigonometry to understand there's no way the player could have realised there would be authority ships there. We don't want someone to ever have to die in a computer game so let's just take that out of the game.

Why should the player be expected to learn that outposts have no security and are safe havens for paying off bounties? And in systems where no outposts exist, why should the player learn the thrill of infiltration without detection? They could wind up getting really sad that they died in a game and that would make the developers look incompetent.

No, say I. The developers should have thought of this monstrous flaw. They should have made it so it's totally possible to avoid even risking detection of the Bounty for that totally innocent error the player made... Hmm let's see, how could they do that?

I have an idea... Make small fines have a really, really short 7 minute timer. When it expires, the player can pay it off, without risk of death whatsoever.

Oh, right...

 

[Commander Dave]

While chasing a wanted ship in the Eravate system some authority vessel flew between my turrets and my target, and I got a 400 credit fine.

How many times are we going to go to this place.
You're in control of the guns. No one else. You. Just you.
If you can't stop shooting when there are innocents around you're not competent to be using them. Put them down and step away.

 

[Crank Larson]

And when you approach a station to pay off a fine, the game should use advanced trigonometry to understand there's no way the player could have realised there would be authority ships there.

So that's what trigonometry is for. I knew I should have paid more attention at school...

 

[Iskariot]

Heres what you and others dont get: its not a minor infraction. if you shoot a cop, it counts as a major infraction, so a bounty and no negotion. What you suggest already exists as fines, which you can pay and become bounties if you dont.

Then at least the bounty should be for an appropriate amount of money.
400 cr indicates that the lawgiver thinks that it was not a big deal, but at the same time the death warrant for your ship, crew and passengers indicates that you are something like a mass murderer for accidentally hitting another ship.

 

[Han Yolo]

That has nothing to do with incompetence in game design.
You apparently just do not understand how this works in the game...
...and that is because it is not very well explained in the game! So I wouldn't call it your fault.

A 400cr bounty (I think you mean 'bounty'... as a fine will not cause authority ships to attack) will change into a fine after 10 minutes and after you have left the system.
You may then reenter the system and pay the fine.

When you have a bounty it is important not to get scanned by authority ships in that system as they will attack you.
This is ok. Authority ships should attack ships with a bounty.

It's as cheap and bad as the fact that a system can be "locked" just because you don't have the permission to go there... how freaking cheap is this please? Wow, FD really always goes for the cheapest and most half- solution available

What I think is not ok is the fact that 400 cr bounties exist at all.
I have been proposing to change them into a fine from the start.
I think it is absurd that spaceships, crew and passengers would be destroyed over a bounty as ridiculously low as that.
I feel that is very unrealistic and immersion destroying.

Getting a 400 cr bounty also forces you to leave a RES and possibly the system which is extremely annoying as you have only accidentally hit another ship and obviously stopped firing as the bounty is only a mere 400 cr and not 6000 cr (which is what you get for killing a ship). So it is already clear that it was unintentional.

By the way it is not difficult to evade authority ships near stations.
I never get scanned myself if I do not want to.
I have entered stations at will, when wanted and with million credit bounties on my head, without any problems.

no, seriously, this is bad game design! Whether they explain it or not, it's just another artificial and cheap game mechanic like many others.

It'S like FDs cheap solution with system permissions. A system is just "locked" when you dont have the permission to go there. How cheap is this please? Really, FD always goes for the cheapest solution available... what a company

 

[Mr_Blastman]

While chasing a wanted ship in the Eravate system some authority vessel flew between my turrets and my target, and I got a 400 credit fine.

I managed to escape and flew to the space station where the fine was to be payed (Ackerman Market) but got my ship destroyed by the authority vessels before I could enter the station.

After regenerating and paying the insurance I still couldn't pay the fine and while leaving the space station got my ship destroyed again. So it happened twice over a 400 credit fine.

A 400 credit fine cost me some 5.000.000 credits.



And again!

The game design isn't the incompetence here...

 

[Ian Skippy]

Then at least the bounty should be for an appropriate amount of money.
400 cr indicates that the lawgiver thinks that it was not a big deal, but at the same time the death warrant for your ship, crew and passengers indicates that you are something like a mass murderer for accidentally hitting another ship.

I agree, the bounties should be 10x higher and people should be banned for up to a month. It would make more sense, but somehow I doubt the op would have been happier about that...

 

[Han Yolo]

The game design isn't the incompetence here...

yea lol, it pretty much is

 

[faytar]

while i admit its been awhile since i have had it happen but , dont bounties go dormant on you after being killed by system authority any more, now been awhile (few months or more)since i had this happen so lord knows it could have changed but i had a 400k odd bounty from killing authority ships just cause i was annoyed with being scanned all the time and did it for the lolz but when they finnaly killed me , the bounty showed but was grayed out and being scanned didnt send them hostile to me was able to leave the station and system with no issue , even returned once to pick up my other ship that was stored there and leave again , eventualy it became a fine and i paid it , so this sounds odd to me though like i said been awhile so could have changed since then

 

[Ydiss]

no, seriously, this is bad game design! Whether they explain it or not, it's just another artificial and cheap game mechanic like many others.

Agreed. Shooting something should not cause you to have a bounty unless you take their shields down, disable their power plant and ram them five times.

Then I could "accidentally" ruin someone's game and no one could defend them until it was too late. That's game design at its best.

I mean, even a system that allowed you a small amount of damage before you were fined would help. Like a sort of friendly fire rule. You know, if you hit something you haven't got targeted but only cause a little bit of damage, then stop hitting them, then you shouldn't get a fine.

That would be awesome, right?

What's that? It's already in the game? And the op must have just kept on firing despite seeing they hit an illegal target? Even though they could see it on the radar? And hear it approaching? They hit it and just kept hitting it until the friendly fire buffer was broken? And then raced straight to the nearest station, complete with authority ships and a set of gigantic, death dealing station weapons? Instead of just waiting 7 minutes for a free pass? Or going to an outpost?

I don't believe you. It's just bad game design. Their "mistake" due to "lacking skills" should have been rewarded, a welcome carpet laid out at the station and high fives all round.

This is a game. The idea that players might actually fail and have consequences of failure is a ridiculous, ludicrous concept. What game has that???

 

[ElGuappo]

You can criticise the OP for his pew-pew skills, but the point still stands. The bounty/fine system and the things that incur them is badly designed and implemented, inconsistent and illogical. Which, in FD's parlance, pretty much gets filed under 'working as intended'.

Blaming the player is just the typical acolyte response to an obvious and long-standing issue.

 

[TomP]

You can criticise the OP for his pew-pew skills, but the point still stands. The bounty/fine system and the things that incur them is badly designed and implemented, inconsistent and illogical. Which, in FD's parlance, pretty much gets filed under 'working as intended'.

Blaming the player is just the typical acolyte response to an obvious and long-standing issue.

I see what you are saying, but given that many average pew-pew commanders, such as myself, manage to mostly avoid these friendly fire incidents, perhaps there is a case for the fault lying with the inaccurate pilot? On the rare occasions that I have pew-pewed a computer generated goody, I have tended to just leave the system for the few minutes required. It isn't rocket science, and in terms of game mechanics it actually holds players to a base skill level without ludicrous consequences.

 

[Ydiss]

You can criticise the OP for his pew-pew skills, but the point still stands. The bounty/fine system and the things that incur them is badly designed and implemented, inconsistent and illogical. Which, in FD's parlance, pretty much gets filed under 'working as intended'.

Blaming the player is just the typical acolyte response to an obvious and long-standing issue.

Absolutely.

Anyone failing to react to the radar and audio cues, after failing to apply care when engaging in a battle with illegal targets nearby, hitting said illegal targets and then continuing to hit them, thus neglecting to utilise the accidental friendly fire rule FD put in about 10 months ago to help players avoid this scenario, then totally ignoring the bounty notification telling them "7 mins" (also added by FD several months ago to reduce the impact of accidental friendly fire), flying directly to the nearest station with authority ships, rather than waiting 7 minutes or going to an outpost... Totally deserve to not die in a computer game.

It's simply not good enough that there needs to be a way for other ships to defend themselves if they're attacked. If I hit something three or four times, the game should know I'm innocent. You know, by sciencing the pap out of it. And I should probably be allowed to hit them a few more times. Why not? Why should anyone be able to attack me or defend them after I've taken their shields down?

It was an accident!

No. No! This game needs intelligent designers who understand that this must not go on. My failures must never result in risk of death! If I do something wrong, the game should pause and provide me with a diagnostic, bullet point driven lesson as to what I must do next to avoid death. I can't possibility be expected to have any risks. The game would be much more fun if nothing bad ever happened and it must tell me exactly everything that could possibly go wrong and how to get out of every situation!

Dying is not an option!

At least there should be a manual for the game that shows me exactly how crime works and how I can avoid it. A manual that is up to date as of 1.4.

Oh...

 

[Iskariot]

Agreed. Shooting something should not cause you to have a bounty unless you take their shields down, disable their power plant and ram them five times.

I actually think that first part of your sentence could be part of the solution.


A rough proposal:

Why not give an appropriate fine of let's say 1000 cr. if you hit the shields of another innocent or authority ship.

And only when you hit the hull of another ship you get a death warrant and a 5000 cr bounty on your head.
Of course it will still happen that you accidentally hit ships that already have lost shields, but it will happen a lot less for sure.

When you kill another civilian ship you should get a bounty of at least 10000 cr. and you will stay wanted for a week just as it is now.
If it is a cop you get double that bounty amount (20000 cr) and you will stay wanted for a month in that system.

If you kill multiple cops within that same month the warrant (with accumulated bounty will become active for the entire major faction's territory (fed, imp, alliance).

 

[shambles1980]

wing of 4 flying around at a haz res see some one in their brand new shiny conda. He isnt wanted. and goes off bounty hunting..
player 1 "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
player 2 "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
player 3 also "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
and player 4 finishes off the sheild by accidentaly shoooting it..

all perfectly deliberate.
Brand new anaconda is now in has res no sheilds and angry.. May even shoot back at the wing of 4 and become wanted..
Brand new anaconda is now in bits, and the wing of 4 wait for the next victim..

All because you introduced a fine instead of a bounty..

Just saying..

 

[Valethar]

In fairness try finding the thing. Where is it?

I've been through the site I can't seem to see it, for me it should be right there under "downloads"?

It's linked at the top of the launcher, right under your name.

 

[DefiledDragon]

See, that's a fine example of Incompetence in flying.

Forget about turrets if your fire-discipline is such that you tag authority vessels - get gimballed weapons. As you stated, the vessel you were pursuing was wanted. It stands to reason that the system authority vessels would also be pursuing the vessel. You should have foreseen the blue on blue incident and unlocked the target, stopping your turrets from firing.

You did not.

Not the game's fault I'm afraid.

Oh please. I'm so tired of reading this same old tripe every time this subject is raised. If the AI can't be given the wherewithall to have at least some situational awareness outside of it's current target then it's hardly fair to expect everybody else to double their workload to make up for it. They can't even give them the SA not to ram people for crying out loud. If the AI took even the smallest steps to avoid crossing into the line of fire of every other ship you might have a point, but the AI in this game are nothing short of suicidal and until that changes, these kind of statements are just a nonsense. Give it a rest, please.

 

[bitstorm]

I actually think that first part of your sentence could be part of the solution.


A rough proposal:

Why not give an appropriate fine of let's say 1000 cr. if you hit the shields of another innocent or authority ship.

And only when you hit the hull of another ship you get a death warrant and a 5000 cr bounty on your head.
Of course it will still happen that you accidentally hit ships that already have lost shields, but it will happen a lot less for sure.

When you kill another civilian ship you should get a bounty of at least 10000 cr. and you will stay wanted for a week just as it is now.
If it is a cop you get double that bounty amount (20000 cr) and you will stay wanted for a month in that system.

If you kill multiple cops within that same month the warrant (with accumulated bounty will become active for the entire major faction's territory (fed, imp, alliance).

Yes please!

I can sit there firing at a player's shield till it's within an inch of going down and only take only a 1000cr fine.

And they cannot fire back because it doesn't incur a bounty and I'm running a hull only build.

Please implement this Frontier, being able to fire at others with impunity sounds great.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I actually think that first part of your sentence could be part of the solution.


A rough proposal:

Why not give an appropriate fine of let's say 1000 cr. if you hit the shields of another innocent or authority ship.

And only when you hit the hull of another ship you get a death warrant and a 5000 cr bounty on your head.
Of course it will still happen that you accidentally hit ships that already have lost shields, but it will happen a lot less for sure.

When you kill another civilian ship you should get a bounty of at least 10000 cr. and you will stay wanted for a week just as it is now.
If it is a cop you get double that bounty amount (20000 cr) and you will stay wanted for a month in that system.

If you kill multiple cops within that same month the warrant (with accumulated bounty will become active for the entire major faction's territory (fed, imp, alliance).

The criminal organizations in Elite Dangerous would like to thank you.

 

[Iskariot]

wing of 4 flying around at a haz res see some one in their brand new shiny conda. He isnt wanted. and goes off bounty hunting..
player 1 "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
player 2 "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
player 3 also "accidentaly shoots his sheild 1ce" small fine dont have to leave hazres
and player 4 finishes off the sheild by accidentaly shoooting it..

all perfectly deliberate.
Brand new anaconda is now in has res no sheilds and angry.. May even shoot back at the wing of 4 and become wanted..
Brand new anaconda is now in bits, and the wing of 4 wait for the next victim..

All because you introduced a fine instead of a bounty..

Just saying..

Aaghh, the horrors of pvp.
Where have the days gone of pure wonderful offline Elite gaming.....
This is a good example of how pvp poisons very useful gameplay solutions.
I should make a list .

FD could keep stricter rules for pvp interactions.