Small Combat Ship Concerns

[CariadocThorne]

Variety is good.

Small ships being able to beat big ships without a numerical advantage, lots of luck or a big difference in player skill is not good.

A Frigate in EVE may be faster than a battleship, but in EVE that does not allow it to take on a battleship and have a decent chance of winning.

In ED, if eagles where much faster, with the same agility, they would be able to stick behind a big ship with impugnity. DBS is almost there already, and that is less agile than an eagle. That is why the faster small ships like the viper are less agile, otherwise they would be untouchable for big ships.

 

[tawittle]

Honestly sounds like OP needs to gitgud.

Something is off if you put eagles and vipers into the same category. One of those ships is useless, and the other is actually viable in pvp. The viper 4 can hold it's own in a 1v1. Vipers can win 1v1s against FDLs and FAS if you are more skilled than your opponent.

moreover there is nothing about the game that is p2w, and money is EXTREMELY easy to make. With a starting cobra that takes only a few hours to make, you can easily make 5-10 mil cr/hour through smuggling.

 

[thesnowdog]

Just buy yourself a Vulture. All your problems will be over.

 

[DefiledDragon]

A Frigate in EVE may be faster than a battleship, but in EVE that does not allow it to take on a battleship and have a decent chance of winning.

It actually does, I used to farm lowsec/nullsec belts in a rifter (an Eve frigate) and take on battleships no problem. The combat in Eve is a lot more complex than in ED, your target's speed is a factor because your turret weapons have limits to how fast they can track a target, also signature radius (size to all intents and purposes) affects damage received, making large missiles less effective against fast, small targets.

My PvP experience in ED is limited, so I can't really speak to that, but from a PvE front the OP kind of has a point. The Eagle doesn't really fill much of a role. You might be in one for an hour, until you've earned enough for a Cobra or a Viper, after which and once you're in a Vulture, there's little point to being in anything else from a combat perspective.

There does seem to be a lot of ships at the cheap end of the spectrum, all competing with each other in various roles, which is strange given the lack of mid tier and high end options. I would rather have a choice of a handful of starter/inexpensive ships with more variety in the mid range once I start getting enough money together to make a serious purchase, but I digress.

 

[Lobstris]

The idea of balancing small ships directly against big ships in combat is silly.
However the idea of small ships threatening big ships when equipped correctly is not unusual.
Torpedo Boats vs Battleships which then resulted in the development of the Torpedo Boat Destroyer.
While we have some weapons for this job (torpedoes in fact) they don't seem to be widely employed.

The issue is that the game is primarily balanced around what a single pilot can do. A big ship allows a single human pilot to do much more.
Letting us hire NPC wingmen to let us fighter swarm bigger targets would be a great addition allowing us to see that quantity has it's own quality.

Additionally balancing could be done in other places than direct firepower/durability.
Small ships could have much smaller sensor signature for the same heat level. Thus stealth recon/smuggling missions would be better done in small ships.
If racing was a more widely acknowledged profession then the speed/agility of small ships clearly makes them more suited.

p.s. The Eagle series does need a bit of love. More speed for the Eagle and some better agility for the iEagle pls.

CMDR CTCParadox

Curse you. You've succinctly expressed what I was trying to convey in a single post what I failed to convey in multiple rambles. Have some rep!

Why would these other games choose to give a speed benefit to the less-armoured options?
Could it be to give players a reason to choose these weaker-but-faster options and provide variety?
Sounds good to me!

Gah! And you too.

 

[Kristov]

P2W can be used as a different term. Just like FPS can be used in 2 different ways.

No, because FPS literally can mean two different things, First Person Shooter or Frames Per Second, while P2W means Pay 2 Win, you spend real world money to buy things that are ONLY possible to get ingame by spending real world money. HUGE difference there between what P2W means and what spending time ingame to earn the ingame coin to buy bigger ships means. Obviously you think that spending time to get good in a game is the same as buying the win, which means you got no clue.

I can't believe that people just refuse to understand what the OP is saying. He is talking about a single aspect of small ships:

SPEED

That's it. He's not saying smaller ships need to be able to take out larger ships, he's not talking about balance, he's not talking about firepower, maneuverability, tactics, anything. He's just asking for more speed.

And yet lots of the replies are about prices, wings, loadouts, comparisons with real life airplanes, grandma's socks and whatnot.

In a combat situation, an Eagle will more often than not be destroyed when encountering a larger ship. The larger ship's matching speed and instahit lasers completely negates the Eagle's size. So why is it in the game? Why was development time wasted into modeling it, making that sweet engine sound for it? Who is going to use the Eagle for more than 10 minutes to complete that Shadow delivery which will pay for the next big ship to replace it?

The point the OP is trying to make is that an Eagle could potentially be useful if, while doing it's own thing against other small ships, it were AT LEAST able to run away from a large ship when it spawns.

I fly a Python, she moves as fast as possible for a Python to move, A thrusters and distributor, so I can literally boost quicker than the booster's run time. I can't outrun a Viper, nor can I outrun an Eagle that's running A class thrusters, which for the record, don't cost as much as the cargo hatch on my Python cost, much less what I paid for my A class thrusters. Top speed without boost is lower than the Eagle or Viper, and my boost speed is also lower than either of them. And the Python is the second fastest of the actual big ships, the Clipper being faster by a good bit, faster than the Eagle or Viper, still slower than a Mk III Cobra. Vulture and FDL will outrun an Eagle but not a Viper, which will outrun everything but a Cobra and Clipper.

So, total lack of experience, limited if any understanding of the game mechanics, and the OP is somehow qualified to tell FD and us how the game needs to be fixed, despite being totally off target and wrong in his basis in the first place, with some of you supporting his call, evidently he's not alone in his lack of experience and understanding of how the game works.

Look kid, if you can't outrun your targets in an Eagle or Viper, UPGRADE the damn thrusters from those E class it comes with to an A class, see how much of a difference it makes. Oh..right..PLAYING the game and actually earning ingame coin is anathema to you, it's Pay2Win, so naturally you don't do that...

Seriously, why haven't the mods eliminated this thread...

 

[CMDR Corlas]

My PvP experience in ED is limited, so I can't really speak to that, but from a PvE front the OP kind of has a point. The Eagle doesn't really fill much of a role. You might be in one for an hour, until you've earned enough for a Cobra or a Viper, after which and once you're in a Vulture, there's little point to being in anything else from a combat perspective.

I also have limited PvP experience and am almost all PvE, but I differ with you almost completely here. I think the OP has basically zero point, PvE wise. I can and have, in an Eagle or a Viper, taken down any and every ship in the game.

I can't speak for PvP, which seems to be OP's emphasis here, but PvE Eagles and Vipers are fully viable. The kills might not come as quick as higher-end ships, but if you fly well they'll still come.

Edit: Also, regarding ships filling specific roles, "cheap fighter" is in fact an important role. Both in contexts of a game and in the real world.

 

[Don Alvarez]

Seriously, why haven't the mods eliminated this thread...

Its turning circles in SuperUse, they just can't maneuver behind it to engage the ThreadLock interdictor.

 

[Noddie]

I'd like a small, agile ship that had the size, speed and agility of a viper, but vastly better shields and weapons.

I do feel that if small, fun to fly ships are your thing you don't have much of an upgrade path past a vulture.

Mind you. Probably a good thing as certain players would abuse it.

 

[DefiledDragon]

I also have limited PvP experience and am almost all PvE, but I differ with you almost completely here. I think the OP has basically zero point, PvE wise. I can and have, in an Eagle or a Viper, taken down any and every ship in the game.

I can't speak for PvP, which seems to be OP's emphasis here, but PvE Eagles and Vipers are fully viable. The kills might not come as quick as higher-end ships, but if you fly well they'll still come.

Edit: Also, regarding ships filling specific roles, "cheap fighter" is in fact an important role. Both in contexts of a game and in the real world.

I'm not saying they're not useful, just that their lifespan is limited. Of course, if you choose to fly an Eagle all the time and fully kit it out, sure, the lifespan can be extended and if you like the ship that much that's great, but my point was more leaning towards the fact that there are a lot of similar ships around that price point and not much choice when you start looking at spending "x" number of millions instead of a few hundred thousand.

 

[Noddie]

Hey guys, been recently thinking about this..

I've been playing a lot of ED over the past week, and I've noticed that eagles and vipers are pretty much useless once you upgrade to bigger ships. I don't want to say it's unbalanced, it's just weird.

From my experience, no matter how good of a pilot you are, if you are in an eagle facing a ship with more firepower, 8/10 you will lose (you guys can claim that's not true, but one slip up will end you), not to mention 2v1s are absolutely impossible regardless of skill. So basically what I'm saying is, this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

What really bothers me is when I'm trying to get around a player in a big ship, but his speed is just so much better with boost that he just boosts away, tanking my hits, then spins around while still going the same speed, and since he has more firepower, I'm gone. For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

If you're caught by a big ship, high wake. They can't stop you then.

You seem to be arguing that someone with a veyron shouldn't be at an advantage compared to someone with an Astra?

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I'd like a small, agile ship that had the size, speed and agility of a viper, but vastly better shields and weapons.

That's called the Fer-De-Lance. Granted, it's bigger than a Viper, but those weapons, bigger engine, bigger shield, and bigger distributor have gotta fit somewhere.

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I'm not saying they're not useful, just that their lifespan is limited. Of course, if you choose to fly an Eagle all the time and fully kit it out, sure, the lifespan can be extended and if you like the ship that much that's great, but my point was more leaning towards the fact that there are a lot of similar ships around that price point and not much choice when you start looking at spending "x" number of millions instead of a few hundred thousand.

Agreed there; I've love to see more competition in the "heavy fighter/light multipurpose" area in the 20-ish million range and above. The Assault Ship and the Clipper are both strong entries here, but something not faction-locked would be nice As would more options in the 50+ mill range. I would love a ship that sits right between the FDL and the Python in terms of speed, maneuvering, range, and internals, but still packs a decent punch. But I don't think that's really this thread.

 

[DefiledDragon]

That's called the Fer-De-Lance. Granted, it's bigger than a Viper, but those weapons, bigger engine, bigger shield, and bigger distributor have gotta fit somewhere.

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Agreed there; I've love to see more competition in the "heavy fighter/light multipurpose" area in the 20-ish million range and above. The Assault Ship and the Clipper are both strong entries here, but something not faction-locked would be nice As would more options in the 50+ mill range. I would love a ship that sits right between the FDL and the Python in terms of speed, maneuvering, range, and internals, but still packs a decent punch. But I don't think that's really this thread.

Yeah, exactly. Just gone from a Vulture to FDL, would have liked to have a crack at the clipper but I'm a filthy Fed and didn't like the FAS :\

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Yeah, exactly. Just gone from a Vulture to FDL, would have liked to have a crack at the clipper but I'm a filthy Fed and didn't like the FAS :\

Haha, people not liking the FAS makes me cry. I love that ship. As an Alliance fan I wish I could get a non-Fed faction one, but she's fast, she turns great, has fantastic hardpoint placement, good internals, good range... Clipper's a lot of fun, but I like fixed weapons too much for it. Mine is now an emptied out husk sitting a shipyard in some Imperial backwater. I actually downgraded to my FAS from my (pre-buff) FDL. I just couldn't take the tiny jump range and cramped internals anymore.

 

[Kristov]

Yeah, exactly. Just gone from a Vulture to FDL, would have liked to have a crack at the clipper but I'm a filthy Fed and didn't like the FAS :\

Stick with the FDL, handles better than the Clipper, a bit slower, but the handling really makes it the better combat ship. The big Imperial ships, Clipper and Cutter, are faster than the other ships of their size, but besides being sexy, that's their only real upside, they aren't great combat ships. I've switched up to a Python from a Clipper for 2 reasons, it's better at combat and can land at Outposts. It doesn't handle as well as my Clipper, but it's just better for combat due the better weapon placement and having that extra large hardpoint really does make a noticable difference. I was always leary of Anacondas in my Clipper, but in my Python, I don't give them a second thought. Conversely, I never thought twice about a Vulture in my Clipper while they give me pause in my Python, the handling comes into play there, damn Vultures are just SO damn agile, FDLs also give me pause, same reason, agility. They can both outpace my Python, so the backwards thing doesn't work real well, while my Clipper could outpace both and handled better, so they were easier to deal with.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Haha, people not liking the FAS makes me cry. I love that ship. As an Alliance fan I wish I could get a non-Fed faction one, but she's fast, she turns great, has fantastic hardpoint placement, good internals, good range... Clipper's a lot of fun, but I like fixed weapons too much for it. Mine is now an emptied out husk sitting a shipyard in some Imperial backwater. I actually downgraded to my FAS from my (pre-buff) FDL. I just couldn't take the tiny jump range and cramped internals anymore.

I know, everybody keeps telling me how great a ship the FAS is which is why I bought one, but going from the Vulture to the FAS was just too much of a shock to my senses and it was largely down to the lack of agility. The Vulture is just insane, is it an 8 or 9 or something? The FDL feels a lot better to me after my Vulture. Maybe if I had given the FAS more time I might have grown to love it, but I'm finding the FDL to be a pretty decent bounty hunter although I know what you're saying about the internals. Jump range never really bothered me as a bounty hunter, although I was quick to stick that A rated FSD in there lol.

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Stick with the FDL, handles better than the Clipper, a bit slower, but the handling really makes it the better combat ship. The big Imperial ships, Clipper and Cutter, are faster than the other ships of their size, but besides being sexy, that's their only real upside, they aren't great combat ships. I've switched up to a Python from a Clipper for 2 reasons, it's better at combat and can land at Outposts. It doesn't handle as well as my Clipper, but it's just better for combat due the better weapon placement and having that extra large hardpoint really does make a noticable difference. I was always leary of Anacondas in my Clipper, but in my Python, I don't give them a second thought. Conversely, I never thought twice about a Vulture in my Clipper while they give me pause in my Python, the handling comes into play there, damn Vultures are just SO damn agile, FDLs also give me pause, same reason, agility. They can both outpace my Python, so the backwards thing doesn't work real well, while my Clipper could outpace both and handled better, so they were easier to deal with.

Yeah, it's the agility that does it for me, no question.

 

[Ydiss]

The FDL has worse agility than that FAS, though. It's the same on paper and in practice it's worse by a noticeable margin. It's still a good ship but the FAS really isn't a ship renowned for being sluggish at all. Its only weakness is its shields, which it more than makes up for with hull, biweave shields and agility (and in comparison to the Vulture, damage and outfitting options) . I found the fdl on the wrong side of not agile enough and went straight back to the fas.

 

[DefiledDragon]

The FDL has worse agility than that FAS, though. It's the same on paper and in practice it's worse by a noticeable margin. It's still a good ship but the FAS really isn't a ship renowned for being sluggish at all. Its only weakness is its shields, which it more than makes up for with hull, biweave shields and agility (and in comparison to the Vulture, damage and outfitting options) . I found the fdl on the wrong side of not agile enough and went straight back to the fas.

Really? That's weird because I found it the other way round. The FDL did feel slightly less agile than what I was used to but the FAS felt like a whale by comparison. Having said that, when I'm up against a FAS, they do appear to be able to turn on the proverbial sixpence. I may have to try another one and see how it compares to my FDL.

 

[Mohrgan]

Really? That's weird because I found it the other way round. The FDL did feel slightly less agile than what I was used to but the FAS felt like a whale by comparison. Having said that, when I'm up against a FAS, they do appear to be able to turn on the proverbial sixpence. I may have to try another one and see how it compares to my FDL.

I begin to wonder if you hadn't flown a Gunship, rather than the Assault ship. They are vastly different, and I would describe the FGS just as you have the FAS.

 

[Sylow]

There is one reason why i up to some degree agree with the OP: Each of the ships we have required a lot of development time to create. Still some ships are just "get out of me as fast as possible" models, despite all the quality work put into them. A too high number of ships we have are mere "stepping stones" and become worthless to the player in much too short time, which is a painful waste of perfectly good assets and the reason why while we now have the promised 30 ships in game, the number of -usefull- ships is significally lower.

What i really would love to see would be something like the "plus variant" of the low tier ships. Why not have an "Eagle Military Refit", costing the same or even a bit more than a Vulture, but also having combat capabilities similar to the Vulture? In terms of development it would require less work than a new ship. Keep the models, keep the cockpit graphics, keep the sound, just adjust module sizes, add a few utility slots and perhaps increase the size of some of the installed weapons. (Although a good capacitor allows even smaller weapons to shine. ) At the same time it would give us a number of new ships which would actually see player use.

And on the topic if we -need- more ships of the same profile: good question. There are also many car producers in RL producing very similar models... in theory all we need would be like five different car models worldwide... *grin* In terms of gameplay those ships would and should be very similar, spending 4 millions on a Vulture, Enhanced Viper, Military Eagle or Boosted Diamondback would be a matter of style and preference. (And again, you might later either spend almost 60 millions on a FDL, or you rather spend that ammount on the "Vulture Model 2" or other ships of similar price range. Variety is good. )