Nav Beacon Discussion - How to make Beacons relevant and engaging!

[MadDogMurdock]

Things that slow down travel are bad! I like to criss cross the bubble - having a 10 jump route take 3 times longer isn't great.

The answer here is to incentivise the beacon rather than force it.
- they tell you where the stations are if you don't know - drop-in to find out.
- they act as customs and import control - drop-in to check-in and system security won't interdict you - vary the effect depending on the type of system and its current state.
- they provide system wide pricing info - drop-in to find out where you can get the best prices
- they act as a market hub - the prices aren't as good but you can drop-off and pick-up and be on your way.
- they act as meeting points for some missions.

Etc.

 

[KaizoMK]

Things that slow down travel are bad! I like to criss cross the bubble - having a 10 jump route take 3 times longer isn't great.

The answer here is to incentivise the beacon rather than force it.
- they tell you where the stations are if you don't know - drop-in to find out.
- they act as customs and import control - drop-in to check-in and system security won't interdict you - vary the effect depending on the type of system and its current state.
- they provide system wide pricing info - drop-in to find out where you can get the best prices
- they act as a market hub - the prices aren't as good but you can drop-off and pick-up and be on your way.
- they act as meeting points for some missions.

Etc.

So you brought up some really good points, but they can be done while forcing the player into the instance.

You also clearly didn't read the original post, as you seem to think it'll take way longer than it would, and you missed the entire purpose of forcing it in the first place.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

So you brought up some really good points, but they can be done while forcing the player into the instance.

You also clearly didn't read the original post, as you seem to think it'll take way longer than it would, and you missed the entire purpose of forcing it in the first place.

I'm in and out of a system in less than 30 seconds when I'm doing multiple jumps - that's the way I like it.
I read your post and a number of other threads on the same subject.

My suggestions make Nav Beacons useful without slowing down travel or creating choke points which are a bad idea.

If you're doing legitimate business in a system then checking in is a good idea.
If you're smuggling or wanted, not checking in is the way to go but increases your chances of being interdicted by security or potentially in pirate systems for not paying your 'taxes'.
If you're just passing through then ignore them.

 

[KaizoMK]

I'm in and out of a system in less than 30 seconds when I'm doing multiple jumps - that's the way I like it.

Oh hey the system proposed by Edwin not too long ago that's even in the OP would allow you to get in and out of a system in less than 30 seconds when doing multiple jumps! You'd only have to enter the beacon in order to enter the system.

Your suggestion of merely giving an incentive to check-in isn't a bad one, but system security will still be a joke, and trading/smuggling will still be boring and easy. If there are harsh penalties to avoiding check-in, then maybe.....but then you have smugglers who avoid check-in, and then incur a fine (a joke) or a bounty (a huge pain) or get chased by interdiction (will vary on whether it's a joke or a gamebreaker, I forget which way the patch is this time around). Better to have him take his chance at a beacon, and if he's trying to smuggle weapons into a high security system then he's either amazing or dumb.

 

[Zeta Legion]

I'm in and out of a system in less than 30 seconds when I'm doing multiple jumps - that's the way I like it.
I read your post and a number of other threads on the same subject.

My suggestions make Nav Beacons useful without slowing down travel or creating choke points which are a bad idea.

If you're doing legitimate business in a system then checking in is a good idea.
If you're smuggling or wanted, not checking in is the way to go but increases your chances of being interdicted by security or potentially in pirate systems for not paying your 'taxes'.
If you're just passing through then ignore them.

That's the idea behind the 'exclusion zone' around the beacons' star. It won't try to tug you out of SC if you're just scooping or lining up a jump. Once you cross that threshold the beacon will interdict you and try to drag you into the instance. Avoiding the beacon's interdiction marks you as a criminal to system authorities who will try to hunt you down; failing to evade gets you a fine and you get scanned by cops upon arrival; submitting doesn't trigger a fine or automatic scan but the cops will try to scan you if their patrol takes you near them as they do currently near stations.

Some systems might have more stringent security protocols than others. Maybe in the event of a war, the beacon becomes a combat zone and no longer functions normally. Or in the event of a compromised nav beacon.

Even though nothing will come of it it's fun to discuss this stuff even if we can't all agree.

 

[Blackcompany]

I've been thinking about ED and how it could be better, you know, like you do. The one thing that seems really obvious but isn't done is this: jumping to a system should drop you into that beacon's instance, forcing you to supercruise or hyperdrive jump to the next system.

UPDATE: This gentleman had a fantastic idea, which builds upon this notion but implements it better. Check out this quote!



Right now beacons have absolutely no function - you could drop in and hunt NPC's that hang around there "because", but you could do that in a RES, and you'll rarely if ever see a PC there. But forcing a player to enter the beacon instance when they intend to enter the system has some far-reaching implications:

-blockades become much more effective. NPC's and PC's alike can set up blockades for CG's, missions, whatever the need. Players can't access the system without going through the beacon, making it more difficult or dangerous to complete objectives than "oh no, I'm being confronted, better high wake twice and try again."

-system security suddenly becomes relevant, with high security systems filling beacons with powerful authorities, and low-nil security beacons being empty or full of pirates. Traders now have an additional factor to consider when choosing their trade routes, and may have to tailor a route to be longer just to avoid dangerous systems, or those dangerous systems may have an economy that desperately needs supplies it can't get, making trading more about risk-reward than number crunching.

-beacons can be tailored to the system or the environment, allowing for a more customized experience. beacons in a binary star system become an overheating hazard, as do certain star types perhaps. beacons can reflect the allegiance or merely the aesthetic of the system. There's a lot that can be worked with here, even if it's just an excuse to put a large station to fly around in.

-police, which have been quite trivial up until this point, have a relevant presence as soon as you enter a system. High security means that you will not be able to enter the system until you are allowed to by the massive security ships that are masslocking you.

Mechanically, the time frame changes for the worse once you decide you need to enter the system - you can jump from system to system as normal, and the time frame to do so is no different from the time it takes now.


There were some issues with my idea as far as exploration and fuel scooping, as well as time - Edgar's proposed solution fixes all that though.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what everyone thinks of this idea. I think it'd add some of that mysterious "depth" people talk about to the game, in a good way.

Good idea. No Interdiction Bubbles in uninhabited systems, however. Does not make sense they would appear there.

Now, here is how we implement it so that travel through the bubble is less tedious:

-The star +20ls radius is immune to the Interdiction bubble

-Crossing into the forced interdiction zone drops all ships safely from Supercruise

-From within the Interdiction bubble, ships can align to their next destination and perform a "mini jump" to within 10Mm of that destination. Mini-jumps can only be initiated from within Interdiction Zones, as these mini-jumps directly to a destination MUST be observed by system authorities for security reasons.

-Mini-jumps can be initiated from any gravity well in the system (including the mass locked zone around stations) to the Interdiction zone.

-FSD Cool Down and Charge time are doubled within the Interdiction zone.

-ALL ships receive a 25 - 30% increase in their base Jump range. Likewise, having a full tank of fuel offers a "charged jump" that adds an additional 10% range. This further compensates players for forced time in normal space, by allowing them to travel from place to place faster (with fewer jumps).


There we go. NOW we not only have a reason to be in normal space more. We have a reason to WANT to USE these monitored transit zones for quick travel throughout a system.

Also, and I want to stress this: Normal Supercruise would remain available throughout a system, since security forces have time to spot and stop ships in that mode of travel. This would not replace Supercruise, merely add another method of travel to compensate players for the forced time in normal space.

 

[Hemlock Reaper]

No. I don't agree with forcing players into a annoying "check point" just to give merit to a section of space. This ads nothing but more negative experiences for the player while adding no content. Let the players jump to the station directly instead of facing the sun every jump and have any additional security there instead of a nav beacon.

 

[Tanith Low]

I think they would change the game to much and the lore.

Think the better option be to integrate nav beacons into missions, so it act as a location to meet up with NPCs.

Beacons should also become like data access points are on the ground, so pilots can access data for specific missions or receive messages.

You should also be able to access the local Galnet.

ships could also be selling stuff at these navigation beacons.

From the dev side it much easier as well.

That's a really good idea. No more "follow my wake" but "meet your contact at the Candecama nav beacon." If you have illicit cargo you'd have to sit there, powered down, praying the cops didn't get close enough to resolve you.

And it prevents people using it as a way of stopping people entering the system because people could just bypass them.

+rep sir

 

[KaizoMK]

Updated OP with some of the better ideas regarding this discussion (thanks Edgar and Blackcompany!). Also tried to change the topic to reflect the fact that it is better to look for ways to make using the beacon a favorable endeavor rather than a forced issue, but it doesn't show. Oh well, clickbait for now.

 

[Jackboot]

This is really an excellent idea, for all the reasons the OP mentioned. I think this one simple change could really make Elite much better, for every profession. Smugglers would want to avoid high security for fear of being scanned by the law, traders would want to avoid low security for fear of being scanned or plundered by pirates, bounty hunters could use both for various reasons, pirates could possibly use them to find targets easier, etc. Or a commander could ignore it completely and stick to fastest route and have a better risk vs reward scenario. Changes the dynamic overall, and ads a new layer of strategy.
Well I guess miners and explorers wouldn't have much use for them, but still. Great idea. I would support this 100%

 

[n4p0l3on]

Good idea. No Interdiction Bubbles in uninhabited systems, however. Does not make sense they would appear there.

Now, here is how we implement it so that travel through the bubble is less tedious:

-The star +20ls radius is immune to the Interdiction bubble

-Crossing into the forced interdiction zone drops all ships safely from Supercruise

-From within the Interdiction bubble, ships can align to their next destination and perform a "mini jump" to within 10Mm of that destination. Mini-jumps can only be initiated from within Interdiction Zones, as these mini-jumps directly to a destination MUST be observed by system authorities for security reasons.

-Mini-jumps can be initiated from any gravity well in the system (including the mass locked zone around stations) to the Interdiction zone.

-FSD Cool Down and Charge time are doubled within the Interdiction zone.

-ALL ships receive a 25 - 30% increase in their base Jump range. Likewise, having a full tank of fuel offers a "charged jump" that adds an additional 10% range. This further compensates players for forced time in normal space, by allowing them to travel from place to place faster (with fewer jumps).


There we go. NOW we not only have a reason to be in normal space more. We have a reason to WANT to USE these monitored transit zones for quick travel throughout a system.

Also, and I want to stress this: Normal Supercruise would remain available throughout a system, since security forces have time to spot and stop ships in that mode of travel. This would not replace Supercruise, merely add another method of travel to compensate players for the forced time in normal space.

Adding jump range boost would be too problematic for the route planner, not a good idea

 

[Xsannz]

This is really an excellent idea, for all the reasons the OP mentioned. I think this one simple change could really make Elite much better, for every profession. Smugglers would want to avoid high security for fear of being scanned by the law, traders would want to avoid low security for fear of being scanned or plundered by pirates, bounty hunters could use both for various reasons, pirates could possibly use them to find targets easier, etc. Or a commander could ignore it completely and stick to fastest route and have a better risk vs reward scenario. Changes the dynamic overall, and ads a new layer of strategy.
Well I guess miners and explorers wouldn't have much use for them, but still. Great idea. I would support this 100%

also the mechanic of groups or wings of bounty hunters or the BGS minor faction state of that system causing the nav beacon to become compromised for a period of time negating any local security or such.

 

[KaizoMK]

Adding jump range boost would be too problematic for the route planner, not a good idea

It could be worked around. Your real issues are when there's 438927402371 possible routes you can take, and it'll never get that bad in the bubble, and you'll never get that boost outside of the bubble.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

So the idea is that when a player jumps into a system, he gets kicked out of supercruise and dumped into an instance, where a player may or may not interact with him (read as try and murder him) and his most probable wanted action in either scenario would be to go back into supercruise so he can get out of the instance. Extra loading screens when people are doing their chores = bad.

Seems like if you want to make beacons more relevant, forcing players into them in an irritating way might not be the way forwards. But I do like your idea of making them more relevant. I see them as a stepping stone for new players to earn some cash fighting pirates, before they're ready to take on RES sites. At least that's how I went through the progression there. Haven't used one in a long time.

 

[Stratigamo]

Fantastic ideas! I think these changes in the OP would definitely make space much more dynamic within civilized space.

 

[n4p0l3on]

Wait, there is one huge problem that so far has not been mentioned regarding the idea of forced interdiction bubble : what would happen if you are a local roamer that want to fuel scoop over and over for many reasons (like farming res or in system trading), it would be annoying if you are forced to be in nav beacons many times; of course a simple solution would be to have a high jump check system so only ships that was coming from another system would be forced into nav beacon

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Wait, there is one huge problem that so far has not been mentioned regarding the idea of forced interdiction bubble : what would happen if you are a local roamer that want to fuel scoop over and over for many reasons (like farming res or in system trading), it would be annoying if you are forced to be in nav beacons many times; of course a simple solution would be to have a high jump check system so only ships that was coming from another system would be forced into nav beacon

That's the idea already. Low wakes won't get grabbed into the instance but incoming high wakers will.

Basically multiple jumps through inhabited space will become as slow and tedious as walking through treacle.

 

[NecoMachina]

I just had a thought. What if they left the current mechanics as-is where you enter all systems in supercruise. As long as you stay near the star, you can fuel scoop and move on without interruption. When you arrive in a populated system with a nav beacon, you get a comm from the local security stating that if you wish to travel within the system (ie move away from the sun to travel to any planets, stations, etc) you must first drop into the nav beacon first - as kind of like a customs checkpoint. You could ignore this and travel in-system without dropping into the nav beacon first, but system authority ships would chase you and try to interdict you.

IMO this would be the best of all worlds. You aren't inconvenienced if you are just "passing through". It adds more interaction and makes the game feel more alive. You can still smuggle by trying to "run the blockade", but it makes things more interesting.

 

[n4p0l3on]

I just had a thought. What if they left the current mechanics as-is where you enter all systems in supercruise. As long as you stay near the star, you can fuel scoop and move on without interruption. When you arrive in a populated system with a nav beacon, you get a comm from the local security stating that if you wish to travel within the system (ie move away from the sun to travel to any planets, stations, etc) you must first drop into the nav beacon first - as kind of like a customs checkpoint. You could ignore this and travel in-system without dropping into the nav beacon first, but system authority ships would chase you and try to interdict you.

IMO this would be the best of all worlds. You aren't inconvenienced if you are just "passing through". It adds more interaction and makes the game feel more alive. You can still smuggle by trying to "run the blockade", but it makes things more interesting.

I thought the OP has added that into his 1st post already...

 

[Akofine]

I just want to say that this is a great idea.
It gives Nav Beacons more of a purpose, creates a sense of traffic in a system, allows for more interesting gameplay to arise (blockades!), and only needs to occur in populated space.

- Frontier would then have the opportunity to add assets to Nav Beacons and treat them as traveller hubs, and create a more vibrant universe.

- I would also add the ability to jump to different stars within the same system, so you could try to be strategic if you know there's a blockade or a pirate gang somewhere, you could try to avoid them.

- Systems without Nav Beacons can just behave as they do now in the current game - no change, you just jump to the star. There could also perhaps be a module (or craftable FSD upgrade?) to override the nav beacon and just jump to the star, that might be interesting.



Great idea, makes the game feel more alive and opens the game up to some very fun possibilities, love it. +1