Discuss the AI here!

[Para Handy]

Well I'm finding the AI quite interesting today, on a trip to get some meta thingies I got interdicted by a dangerous python (this account is only master and in an AspE) the interdiction started after the h-jump countdown had finished and was initiating the "tunnel of love" - can't submit, can't cancel h-jump and can't fight the interdiction. (Don't know if that is supposed to be able to happen, never had it before.) it took me a load of chaff, boost and FA off to survive long enough to h-wake with no shields and 52% hull. Then a bit later (still en-route) a ViperIV (I think master but can't really remember noticing) jumps me and it takes all my time to get it's shields off and rip into it with mc and missiles - but WOW it had a lot of chaff to throw out. Definitely no kebab impersonators so far.

So I think the AI is still better than it was in 2.0 and I just hope not to meet too many elite with mods like I did last night.

 

[Smaste]

The AI is fine. There is (or was) glitches, deal with them. AI itself is fine, okay. Close thread -.-

Not everyone agrees with you,

that's the point of the thread, sorry.

Democratic processes are kinda what work best.

"deal with them"

FYI, I've had AI just pause and do absolutely nothing, we've had reports of AI not even responding to aggression = AI ain't fine.

 

[Monk]

Oh...the poll closed.

Was going to wait until I had plonked enough hours down to make a reasonable judgement from my perspective.

Anyway.

I love the new AI

It was frustrating, at first, to lose some of my most expensive ships to what used to just be a minor nuisance.

Though, now, I've adapted and started to learn how the NPCs fly and I am having a great ole time. I was glued to my computer for 5 hours straight last night just bounty hunting and that hasn't happened with ED since Gamma and a little bit when 2.0 dropped.

I've learned that handing over cargo when flying a T9 is often the best resolution with NPC pirates. A dozen tons of metal is better than facing the rebuy screen and my profit is dinged only a bit. Unless ofcourse I am in a high sec system and the cops will be there shortly...just drop a bunch of mines and fly towards the help.

An Elite of nearly any ship is something to keep an eye on...I even saw an elite T9 pounding a pirate NPC with rails, lol. That is as it should be...the ranks Deadly and Dangerous actually represent the threat level of the ships that bear them.

This has been a long time coming, I know that is tough for folks who got to know this game while the NPCs were handicapped. I don't think it was ever the intention for the NPCs to be pushovers. Elite is supposed to be a game with many challenges....finally, NPCs are part of the challenge.

Is there tweaking yet to be done? Absolutely...

For traders, there needs to be clearer indication that dropping some cargo will let you off the hook from a pirate. A cargo request UI would be good...perhaps if pirate demands showed up in the inbox and you could just click OK and drop the desired cargo, no guesswork!

Not necessarily combat AI but PP NPC ships need to be scaled back, a lot. They are over crowding EVERYTHING and can quickly turn a HazRes into a spectator sport while you wait for a pirate to show up (NPC limit per instance).

Return the NPC retreat mechanics. It was too much at first and now it is way to little (or off). I use the tactic against strong NPCs, they should use it too.

NPC Wing prevalence should correlate to players in instance/wing. It is near impossible for most ships to take on a wing without some help (hooray for High Intesity RES police).

NPCs should face tank less. It is becoming common move for me, when I know an NPC can't take my shields down faster than I can take theirs, to just face tank right back (PIP: 4, 0, 2) until losing shields causes them to expose their broad side.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Been cruising around in a Corvette (2 huge fixed MCs, one large gimballed MC, 2 medium beam turrets, 2 small beam turrets): Killing an elite conda was fairly straight-forward, as the Corvette is more agile it was easy to just unload the huge multi-cannons. A deadly FdL was more tricky, had to rely on the turrets a lot as it was hard to keep him in sight. Fortunately they are (too) easy to ram, so just as with the conda it didnt get my shield down either. Next a wing of three cobra mk3s, master/'expert. One of them kept spamming missiles, occassionally overloading my two PTD. The turrets did most of the work: hitting a master cobra reliably with a fixed multi-cannon on a corvette isn't that easy. After this fight I've run out of heat sink ammo (two modules), used to counter SCB heat-buildup.

All in all it seems fine, although the elite conda was a bit too easy. My Corvette is able to hand small wings with relative ease, and it can destroy large and lumbering ships easily. Two high-end dogfighters or large wings would probably have a good chance of routing me though.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

The AI is fine. There is (or was) glitches, deal with them. AI itself is fine, okay. Close thread -.-

There it is, folks. Everyhing is fine. We have the final arbiter of what is/isn't ok speaking.

Seriously, where were you? 326 pages to finally put an end to all this. It could have been resolved by you on day one.

I, for one, am miffed. M-I-F-F-E-D miffed.

 

[Smaste]

Oh...the poll closed.

Seems like an arbitrary time to close the poll.

Though it seems like you've been somewhat punished for doing so, I thank you for doing your due diligence before voting! I'm sure quite a few of the votes were a little... sudden .

 

[SCTrojanbulldog]

Wait for a few months after the players started doing upgrades to their ships. I can already see the threads about AI being easy. Just wait.

The game needs to sell new copies to stay viable as that is the revenue stream. I DON'T want new players to suffer because some long termer's invested to END GAME and now need something else to do until the next season/update.

If people enjoy this game they want NEW PLAYERS.

Why is this so hard for the "elite awesome combat player" to understand????

I'm good at combat and haven't lost a ship post engineers. But I've lost plenty to get to this point. I shutter to think how I would have felt if I just started to the point of three months in with 2.1. Most players are not as adept at mastering FA toggling, countermeasure utilization, and pip management. I know a lot of combat only friends that have played for a while that still struggle.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Seems like an arbitrary time to close the poll.

Not really, in my opinion, as the AI was about to be tweaked server side (after Zac's announcement on the topic) - the poll was closed accordingly. To leave it open would confuse the issue - the "current" AI would have changed mid-poll.

 

[Smaste]

There it is, folks. Everyhing is fine. We have the final arbiter of what is/isn't ok speaking.

Seriously, where were you? 326 pages to finally put an end to all this. It could have been resolved by you on day one.

I, for one, am miffed. M-I-F-F-E-D miffed.

I didn't look at it that way!

I now see the error of my ways! Arbitrary arbitration is the way forwards!

Aren't oxymorons riveting?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Not really, in my opinion, as the AI was about to be tweaked server side (after Zac's announcement on the topic) - the poll was closed accordingly. To leave it open would confuse the issue - the "current" AI would have changed mid-poll.

Maybe we could have new thread with new poll?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Feel free to start one - emphasis on the "one"....

 

[Monk]

Not really, in my opinion, as the AI was about to be tweaked server side (after Zac's announcement on the topic) - the poll was closed accordingly. To leave it open would confuse the issue - the "current" AI would have changed mid-poll.

Ahh, that 'splains it.

Anyway, almost all the interaction I've had with AI was post server tweak.

Early on, I had my Python blown to smithereens. I logged out and cried myself to sleep where I dreamed of The Matrix and my eventual servitude to the machines.

I came back with the vigor and tenacity of vengeance and dotted the planet surface with the burning ruins of corrupted NPC FDLs.

 

[Smaste]

Not really, in my opinion, as the AI was about to be tweaked server side (after Zac's announcement on the topic) - the poll was closed accordingly. To leave it open would confuse the issue - the "current" AI would have changed mid-poll.

On the one hand I think some people's opinions on the matter are kind of "shut out" on the other hand I agree that it would cause some unnecessary contradictions as to "Then" and "Now" amongst the parties currently debating the issue.

Compromise, I suppose.

I retract my original statement.

 

[kofeyh]

The game needs to sell new copies to stay viable as that is the revenue stream. I DON'T want new players to suffer because some long termer's invested to END GAME and now need something else to do until the next season/update.

If people enjoy this game they want NEW PLAYERS.

Why is this so hard for the "elite awesome combat player" to understand????

I'm good at combat and haven't lost a ship post engineers. But I've lost plenty to get to this point. I shutter to think how I would have felt if I just started to the point of three months in with 2.1. Most players are not as adept at mastering FA toggling, countermeasure utilization, and pip management. I know a lot of combat only friends that have played for a while that still struggle.

If you started after 2.1, how would you know what pre 2.1 AI was like? You learn with what you are exposed to. The endless "think of the children" posts don't really make sense. If the teacher has improved, then the students will also have a better chance of improving.

Regardless, AI will change because actual risk is a bridge too far for many. Fair enough; but I imagine the exact same arguments will appear when the big bad is added. I am all for people not living in fear 24/7 but the alternative if you remove even the hint of risk, is potato AI that really doesn't help the game or its longevity at all.

People have become used to and comfortable with AI that do not pose a threat. I am not convinced that that is healthy, given the game is to have alien race(s) added that will indeed be a threat. At some point we have to face the music.

Yes, of course the game should be fun. There's a balance. But removing any real sense of risk, does actually tend to cheapen the experience. If the AI interdicting you is a tomato and isn't any more threatening than a jelly donut, it becomes annoying and a waste of time. Which leads to frustration. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all AI should be Terminator like, either. It's possible to have a challenge and also make a buck.

Games need some challenges, some dangers and genuine risk to thrive. Remove them all, and bordem leads to exodus of the player base. And complaints that there is nothing to do and there is no depth or sense of realisim. Without a hint of risk, there's no value in anything we do. It becomes meaningless repetition.

 

[Smaste]

*snip*

If I could be so bold as to speak for Rojan,

I don't think he was implying that they would know what pre 2.1 is like, but rather that some players would be put off by the challenge of the new AI. Of course, there is also a group of players who desire this challenge.

As you've suggested, I think it's more about a compromise, I would like to believe even the most die-hard RES camper could see that the level of bugs in the AI that existed then was ridiculous, and that this is the right direction for the game. What I think happened as a result of the AI changes and the engineer bugs was that the pendulum swung from one side to the other, and that's not what we want, because that's not (as my cliched analogy suggests) balanced.

I think the false dichotomy for both sides is becoming a bit of a burden on the discussion.

There might be a few trolls on both sides, but I don't think it's the case of people who want Dark Souls Space Edition vs people who want Farmville Space Edition. I believe players want balance, and you've suggested we reach that, so I largely agree with what you've suggested. We don't want to scare away challenge and chill players, we want both of them to feel welcome, and they have manifested in the pirates/bounty hunters vs the traders/explorers.

I think a separate issue entirely is making chill players feel welcome into combat without detracting from the experience of the challenge players, as well as making the challenge players feel welcome in trading/exploring without detracting from the chilled players' experience.

Also obligatory how audacious of me to speak on behalf of people

 

[Crazy Jedi]

Did I read somewhere here that the bugs have all been fixed now or was it wishful thinking????

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Did I read somewhere here that the bugs have all been fixed now or was it wishful thinking????

I don't think the bugs have been fixed. They did remove the weapon mods that NPCs were using until the issues are fixed. Some weapons were giving God-like power to NPCs.

 

[rrobes]

That's mission enemies in a nutshell, really. I'm just master but I got tailed by a dangerous FDL and an Elite Python all the way across the system, to the starbase. They even came after me there, and got the proper welcome from the starbase. There's nothing wrong with that, mission have worked like that since 2.0. Of course now with the increased difficulty it's not that easy to get rid of them. Since it was the same ship every time, it was because of the mission, and those won't ask questions, it's their way. Also this post of mine was from quite a while back, before the machine rail gun videos were posted, which were exactly what I was referring to. Vaguely saying that every NPC outright kills you is a blanket statement, but having proof that some work not as intended is not. And yes, the NPCs are a lot more deadly then they were before. But the fact is, I don't have a problem with that, I just can't blindly charge at wings of ships anymore.

You don't state what you are flying (what is your risk exposure as to re-buys), you didn't get nailed and destroyed, and you didn't have 13 million CR insurance to pay. You may feel differently when it happens to you. As long as it doesn't happens to you but to the "other guy" it's easy to say this is how it is, no big deal.

I get it that it is the mission, many missions state that hostile ships will come after you. I like the new aggressive NPC's, I like the new upgrade. What I don't like is a "Boss" NPC with way superior weapons in effect and capabilties, that they are able to knock down shields in seconds, cut through ANY of the armor, including MILSPEC, reactive or mirrored as if they were alloys. What is the point of upgrades then?

I just pulled my reactive armor off my Python to reduce the reduce the buyback. I am even considering pulling all of my A-Class upgrades off to "cheapen" the ship. All the effort/expense to improve the equipment is null and void if you stand a good chance of being destroyed without the ability to mount an effective response. I literally flew for months, and much of it in combat and recently trying to reach elite from deadly and wasn't destroyed (significantly damaged quite often, usually during one on one with high ranked Cutters/Anancondas) and now it is way different.

Also, I didn't state that "every NPC outright kills you", Only that there appear to be certain NPC's that are way overpowered. One other observation, the colors of the fired ordenance of new NPC's are often different than before, so something else is at play. Yesterday a dangerous DBS in a LHS 28 HIRES was firing green MC rounds at me (until I put it down with my FAS).

"The Stars My Destination"
Alfred Bester

 

[Crazy Jedi]

I don't think the bugs have been fixed. They did remove the weapon mods that NPCs were using until the issues are fixed. Some weapons were giving God-like power to NPCs.

L

that was the biggest issue of the update... Almost every npc had uber mods and almost every interdiction resulted in you facing an elite npc with modded weapons and a left you flying a big fireball (very briefly)
is it at least playable now? Or shall I go back to Overwatch?

 

[Smaste]

L

that was the biggest issue of the update... Almost every npc had uber mods and almost every interdiction resulted in you facing an elite npc with modded weapons and a left you flying a big fireball (very briefly)
is it at least playable now? Or shall I go back to Overwatch?

It's playable, until they add the weapons again, then everything's up in the air.

It's just a shame that these bugs *were* reported and weren't fixed in the Beta.

Instead we had an Orca Torpedo highlighted. lol.